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Small Government & Conservativism

DeletedUser3

You aren't a conservative if you do not believe in a limited constitutional government.

Thank you Liberty for that statement. It provides a great opening to yet another entertaining contradiction.

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Another argument associated with this is the claim of regulation. And yet we have conservativism actually spending significantly more on regulatory commissions despite the claim of deregulating (do note, Clinton's second term had a House/Senate GOP controlled Congress):

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Finally, we have the ratio of government employment to population increasing during Republican Presidential terms and decreasing or maintaining during Democratic Presidential terms:

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So, is it a myth? Is the claim of conservativism that of being smaller & less intrusive government just a facade'? When you consider that the Bush Jr. administration imposed the Patriot Act, and other Constitutional infringements, it does seem to lean on the side of --- hypocrisy.

Thoughts?
 

DeletedUser34

Based on your graphs, I'd say it is as much a misnomer as a "liberal" is truly a liberal.
Only crazy people believe that when factions get as big at the parties are, can they truly be one thing or another.
 

Liberty

Active Member
I think the problem you are having, Hellstrom, is that you are calling people conservative that weren't at all. Even Reagan. He talked a wonderful game, but he did not walk his talk.

Just because someone is a Republican, does not make them conservative. Far from it.

So, you see, my statement that you cannot be a conservative without being for a limited Constitutional government is not contradictory at all.
 
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DeletedUser3

I see, so then all the Republican Presidents (Bush Sr., Reagan, Nixon, Ford, Bush Jr.) were not actually conservatives. Interesting defense.

I don't buy it. It's still an interesting defense but, at the core, there is a problem with this argument, in that for decades (and more lately than previously) Republicans and the GOP as a whole has been yelling for smaller government and less regulation. Each and every Republican President listed above, and almost all the standing GOP Congressmen have been hyping about deregulation and shrinking government, yet the reports available clearly demonstrate that whenever Republicans are in office, be it local, State, or Federal, size and scope of government actually increased. In stark contrast, Democrats invariably result in same or smaller government, which has been largely attributed to the notion of efficiency as opposed to "less" government.

So then, are we to conclude that the GOP is simply faking it? Is this yet another case of placating the masses whilst doing whatever the hell they want? How is it possible that anyone can trust the GOP if it's all just smoke and mirrors?

Or is it just smoke and mirrors?
 

Liberty

Active Member
I see, so then all the Republican Presidents (Bush Sr., Reagan, Nixon, Ford, Bush Jr.) were not actually conservatives. Interesting defense.

I don't buy it, but it's still an interesting defense.
I'm not "defending" anything, Hellstrom. Merely stating facts. Whether you "buy it" or not, is your own problem.

At the core, there is a problem with this argument, in that for decades (and more lately than previously) Republicans and the GOP as a whole has been yelling for smaller government and less regulation. Each and every Republican President listed above, and almost all the standing GOP Congressmen have been hyping about deregulation and shrinking government, yet the reports available clearly demonstrate that whenever Republicans are in office, be it local, State, or Federal, size and scope of government actually increased. In stark contrast, Democrats invariably result in same or smaller government, which has been largely attributed to the notion of efficiency as opposed to "less" government.
The reality is that both major political parties have both become parties of big government, militarism, the nanny state and anti-civil liberties.

So then, are we to conclude that the GOP is simply faking it? Is this yet another case of placating the masses whilst doing whatever the hell they want? How is it possible that anyone can trust the GOP if it's all just smoke and mirrors?

Trust a political party? Only a fool would do that, Hellstrom. Political parties are inanimate objects, with different people in power and sway at any given time. What one should be trusting are core principles and look for the best person, regardless of party, who shows by actions, not just words, that they stand for those principles.

I have told you before and I will say it again. There used to be 2 major factions in the Republican Party. The "Rockefeller-Republicans", who were the big government folks, and the "Goldwater-Conservatives", who were the limited constitutional government folks. The Goldwater-conservatives were THE conservatives. Real conservatism is really a slice between libertarianism and conservatism, which is why many called themselves libertarian-conservatives. Heck, there even used to be some conservatives in the Democratic Party; Larry McDonald was one.

Then came Reagan. He promised conservatives that he would not pick an establishment Insider as a running mate, but then he went ahead and did it by choosing Bush. Everyone should have known then, but I think a lot of people remembered him from back when he gave a speech for Goldwater and it sounded so good. Even Ron Paul believed Reagan at the beginning. But, back to the story...

The people advising Reagan really wanted to win, of course, and saw 2 groups of people that they thought might put him over the top. One was a group of people in think tanks who seemed to be interested in Reagan and the second were evangelicals. Both were a huge mistake. The people in think tanks who were brought in were actually the ex-Trotskyite neoconservatives that had been in the Democratic Party. It wasn't until later that they started using the term, neoconservative. They thought they saw an opening to take over the conservative movement and lo and behold, they carried it off. FOX news sings their tune most of the time. Many of the evangelicals who were courted, cared very little about the Constitution. In fact, they were happy to use big government force, as long as they could use it to cram their own wishes down their fellow Americans' throats. Still today, they don't seem to realize that their actions help create the big government that they so often hate for doing the very same things that they wish to do.

Reagan was a pretty popular President and after he left office, everyone and their dog in the Republican Party started calling themselves a conservative. I think mostly because conservatives didn't really let them see what he did, as opposed to what he said. This is also when the hyphenated conservative denotions started. Social-conservative, Neo-conservative, Paleo-conservative. Paleocons are the Goldwater-Conservatives; the only real conservatives. Heck, even the Rockefeller-Republicans, like Mitt Romney, called himself a conservative.

Today, neocons have dropped their moniker and just go by "conservative". That does not change the fact that they are not. They are in fact almost polar opposites. They have much more in common with your beliefs Hellstrom, as they came from the Democratic Party. Many disgruntled Republicans left the Republican Party. Did you realize it was disgruntled paleocons who started the Libertarian Party? Others started the Constitution Party. Some went Independent and some stayed in the Republican Party.

FOX News has played their part in propagandizing conservatives. I often refer to it as neocon-central. They offer false choices and tell people to choose between them. For example, either you want Hillary, or you want someone like Giuliani or Huckabee. CHOOSE. After the constant opinion pieces that are supposed to serve as news, for years on end, people forget what they once stood for; they forgot their principles. And here we are.

But, many paleocons (libertarian-conservatives) are trying their hearts out to wake people up before it is too late, if it isn't already. Libertarian-conservatives are constitutionalists, believers in sound money, fiscal responsibility, a strong national defense (not offense), individual liberty, personal privacy and personal responsibility.

The End.

Or is it just smoke and mirrors?
It's probably the same as saying that the word "Progressive" equates to Communist. There is a lot of truth in that, of course, as anyone can look up how the Progressive Caucus came about. But, I am also quite sure that some use that term and have no idea of whence it came.
 
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Liberty

Active Member
Some additional graphs for those who like looking at them:

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Oh and also look at the employment boom:


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Note that the employment rate never really recovered after the Tech Bust. The boom time was just a huge debt bubble.
 

DeletedUser3

Respectfully none of those charts you just posed have anything to do with the topic.
 

Liberty

Active Member
Respectfully none of those charts you just posed have anything to do with the topic.
Respectfully, I already responded to your original quandry. That resolved, I posted some charts that demonstrate things are not quite as rosy as you attempted to paint.
 

DeletedUser

If you were my students, I would note that answers to these types of questions depend on what you think the purpose of politics is, then I'd ask you what you think that purpose is.

Then I'd point out that most answers to this questions generally change depending on your social location (your class, race, gender, sexuality).

Then we'd have a conversation about power, interests, and contradictions.

Though I think I am fairly opposed to Liberty's ideological position, I would agree that conservativism in the sense of an anarchistic market society is more or less a dead ideology in mainstream politics. I would agree with Hellstromm however that the Democratic Party has empirically better stewards of the economy when it comes to simple measures like employment and debt. What I'd add is that both parties are basically neoliberal parties that promote a technocratic and monopolistic form of global capitalism, have very minor disagreements about what establishing that means, and generally do whatever they can to inflate whatever minor differences that do exist into major issues so as to distract people from focusing on the overall direction that the US, as global hegemon, is taking everybody.
 

Liberty

Active Member
What I'd add is that both parties are basically neoliberal parties that promote a technocratic and monopolistic form of global capitalism, have very minor disagreements about what establishing that means, and generally do whatever they can to inflate whatever minor differences that do exist into major issues so as to distract people from focusing on the overall direction that the US, as global hegemon, is taking everybody.

I actually agree with you that this is what is happening, but, I don't think it is only the 'US'. I am totally against this whole deal. Handing more power over to the same people who are leading us down this path seems rather foolish.

I would agree that conservativism in the sense of an anarchistic market society is more or less a dead ideology in mainstream politics.

Actually, at the most I am arguing for constitutional government. Something that we have not had for quite some time.

Though I think I am fairly opposed to Liberty's ideological position
Interesting. I advocate individual liberty. Why would you be against that?
 
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DeletedUser3422

“Interesting. I advocate individual liberty. Why would you be against that?”
Most are against individual liberty they just won’t admit it or are tooignorant to know it.
 

DeletedUser

I have always thought libertarians stand for nothing. Anarchic in their belief of no state intervention as they don't believe in state being left free to associate and be about their business. So is true conservatism the same as being a libertarian. Conservatism in the UK has moved from having some philanthropic values to pure corporatism if we need to give them labels. Is there a difference?
 

DeletedUser3313

Conservatism in the United States, or modern conservatism, rose out of Republicans becoming the minority party. First, this rose out of FDR and his extended term as President, and it was the counter-argument to his spending. And then secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it then rose out of the Democrats controlling the House for the next 60 plus years. Now admittedly, I'm over simplifying. But my point remains, conservatism is a minority position -- it is a position that a political person takes when they are not in power. It is not the position of power. A person in power spends as they please. Just as you have seen record spending and expansion of government under a Republican controlled congress and a Republican President in George W. Bush. One of the problems the Democrats have as an minority party in the House, is they have not been able to mount a convincing argument against Republican agenda. Certainly, they can't argue less spending. They can, and have, argued that a Republican agenda disenfranchises the poor. The Tom Delay redistricting has done wonders for maintaining Republican control in the House.

I've digressed. I'm not speaking to the ideals of the public. A private person could argue conservatism and have no other agenda than the belief that would make for better government. In Washington, it's device to get elected and then to gain power. We have not seen conservatism in practice from a position in the power in the White House or the Congress. It has only been used as an obstruction tactic and in fringe politicking, to divide a base and win elections.
 

DeletedUser3422

Libertarians are far from anarchists due to the fact anarchy cannot sustain liberty. Only the rule of law can sustain liberty. In America we currently have two major parties, the Democratic and republican. Both parties are left of center, they favor a large federal government which takes away from individual liberty. Unfortunately many people are afraid of liberty, this is why we have two left of center parties.
As a Libertarian I believe you should be free to live your life as you see fit unless it interferes with my liberty. This scares people! If you own a business and want to hire only white male smokers, you should be free to do it just as I am free not to do business with you. As a Libertarian I think gay marriage and polygamy should be legal because it does not infringe on my liberty. We need laws to protect our liberty not dictate our morality.
 

DeletedUser3

You do realize racism infringes on other people's liberties, right? When an able-bodied and qualified black man is denied employment because a less qualified white man also applies, that is an infringent upon equality. Equality is the essense of liberty, for without it we have infringement of liberties by imposition of inequality. Your perception of libertarianism is distorted if you think it advocates freedom to express racism through action. Liberty is obtained by protection of "equal" rights, not protection of "all" rights. The right to deny others is just as wrong as the right to impose upon others, or perhaps you carry a different set of rights you would like to share in this discussion.
 

DeletedUser34

I believe you should be free to live your life as you see fit unless it interferes with my liberty. This scares people! If you own a business and want to hire only white male smokers, you should be free to do it just as I am free not to do business with you. As a Libertarian I think gay marriage and polygamy should be legal because it does not infringe on my liberty. We need laws to protect our liberty not dictate our morality.
I have to say, I do not disagree with this. Now, granted, abuse I don't agree with, but if I decide I want to own a business and/or rent a house out that I own, I should not be dictated to as to who I can or can not rent/serve. I realize Hell brought up racism, but even then....if I don't want to serve blacks, or for that matter Green people, I shouldn't have to, they in turn have the right to picket, boycott, and utterly destroy my profits by not visiting my establishment. You know here in Texas, in my city, they have put on the books 4 times to make it against the law to smoke in an establishment...it is constantly shot down, even by owners who don't smoke, because they believe that they should have the right in how they run their business.

I have a problem with people telling me who I have to like, serve, suck up to in general. Just as I believe I should have the right to hate, ignore and piss off in general those who don't agree with me. I think somewhere in all this "equal rights" business, personal liberties got lost. Look at....oh yeah diggo, I am soooo going here :p.....guns, airports, mental health...I can go on and on about areas the country is biased.
 

DeletedUser

Both parties are left of center, they favor a large federal government which takes away from individual liberty.

I'm mostly staying out of this, but this statement is not at all factual and relies on both misinterpretation of what is left-right and a misunderstanding of the linear relationship between ideological beliefs in relation to each other. The system is not actually binary, it's portrayed as such because of a two party system and poor civic knowledge. The reality is far more complex and in that analysis both parties are right of center and above the authoritarian axis (2 axis view). Left and right have to do with economic stance. The libertarian / authoritarian axis is independent (albeit highly correlative) of the economic stance. The correct statement is that neither party is libertarian leaning.
 

DeletedUser

Clearly Domino has failed to heed the wise words of Hellstromm. It is most ironic she only has any rights at all due to the white male majority supporting (or at least tolerating) these rights for women. Funny how she still believes it is her right to deny equality to any other disadvantaged minority... what less to expect from selfish 'libertarians' in name alone.
 

DeletedUser34

Clearly Domino has failed to heed the wise words of Hellstromm. It is most ironic she only has any rights at all due to the white male majority supporting (or at least tolerating) these rights for women. Funny how she still believes it is her right to deny equality to any other disadvantaged minority... what less to expect from selfish 'libertarians' in name alone.
OMG!!! hahahahahahaha...if only you knew!!! ECHO!!!
I am not denying the rights of anyone. I just think that if someone owns the said property, or business, it is theirs to decide how it is run. If someone doesn't like it, do like everyone else does and boycott it and run it out of business. I think social justice works much like kid justice.

"Wise words"....hahahahahahahahahah...this is me walking down the hall laughing my butt off!
Just for the record, I do NOT think girls should join Boy Scouts.

edit: I do think everyone has a right to voice their opinion, vote and participate in government. I don't think everyone has a right to live anywhere they want UNLESS they own it. If someone denied service to me because I am female, so be it. More power to them...they lose my business as well as those of other women. What do I care what they do if they own the business or property. Case in point...PGA clubhouse. Who cares if they don't allow women? It is their right not to if they don't want to.
 
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DeletedUser

I don't think everyone has a right to live anywhere they want UNLESS they own it.
Is the Earth not already here for us when we are born? Who can truly say they have the right to claim and own something that belongs to all who live, walk, swim, and fly on it? ;)
 
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