Swap threads. A terrible idea.

[DeletedUser26965]

Brevity is a sign of intelligence, long winded redundant, boring posts aren't.

excuse me but some of your posts have been quite lengthy and bloated and really his post is not all that extensive, could put the bullet points in a spoiler perhaps but really, it's an easy read.

 

[Ta 152H]

excuse me but some of your posts have been quite lengthy and bloated and really his post is not all that extensive, could put the bullet points in a spoiler perhaps but really, it's an easy read.

You're excused, I expect little from you.

His post was exceedingly long at first, and it way too long for the subject. That's why so many people said so.

Mine often cover several points. You typically write nothing with any content, and still take space. Your posts are typically poorly organized too, but I've never commented on them, because they weren't crazy length like his was.

Obviously, my criteria was not too stringent, since almost all the posts said the same thing. Think about it.

 

[DeletedUser28132]

Yeah sorry, I tried but turned off after a while. If you could precis down to a couple of paragraphs that would be good.
1st world problems eh?

Good news/bad news. I rewrote it a number of times and cut it in half. I think it reads much better now. The bad news is it will still take you about 10 minutes to read, 15 if you are a really slow reader.

 

[DeletedUser28132]

My answer to this is relatively simple :

It is a nightmare to try and enforce any sort of rule on sniping on a guild-wide scale for a myriad of reasons, therefore it should rather be encouraged so noone feels left out that 'they could've done it, but felt it was wrong'. You want the spot and feel it's worth it? Spend what it takes to lock it. Hoped you wouldn't need to and lost it? Your own fault. .

I would like to hear some of the ways you find it difficult to enforce the No Sniping Rule. That's the sort of things we should be discussing in this debate. Thanks for your reply.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

His post was exceedingly long at first, and it way too long for the subject.

subjective opinion, I disagree.

That's why so many people said so.

relative and you poisoned the well with your first response, you're good for poisoning the well and muddying the waters I'll give you that much

Mine often cover several points.

So did his

You typically write nothing with any content, and still take space.

I can show you otherwise if you like, how many threads you start? 4?

Your posts are typically poorly organized too

subjective

but I've never commented on them,

lie

because they weren't crazy length like his was

subjective, I've had "lengthy" posts as well but I'm not the mudcrwaler here.

Obviously, my criteria was not too stringent, since almost all the posts said the same thing.

who cares if anyone happened to agree with you, doesn't make anything you have said true

Think about it.

perhaps you should try that, I'm quite sure you need it more than me.

 

[DeletedUser28132]

I see far too many players race through the ages and then play catch up when they get in over their heads...This isn't any different. Players not taking advantage of events and forge point producing buildings are dropping the ball when it comes to strategy in GB building. Trying to place in the top two slots in an upper level GB while producing 35-40 fps daily is a tough row to hoe on the threads no matter how long you stay online. Making rules for the newbs doesn't teach them anything either...like camping and donating to Oracles and low level GBs to build inventory over time; that sniping these same GBs at a LOSS will help you build inventory for the future. That gaining every fp they can possibly muster through GE, DCs and DQs will help them compete on bigger GBs in the future. INNO has made events a monthly and daily feature so newbs can gain a foothold in the game. If they can't compete against players with huge fp cities, it's time to change their strategy or play something else.....

Exactly. There are many ways to advance in this game, playing the swap threads is a small part of it. Those in favor of the No Snipe Rule, however, make it sound like the only way anyone can get ahead in this game is through the swap threads. Thanks for your reply.

 

[DeletedUser28132]

I stopped when you told me to read the whole thing. Who the fuk are you to tell me what to do?
I’m going to snipe all your GB’s

I highly recommend you seek professional help.

 

[DeletedUser28132]

So, prove us wrong, and shorten it up so people will read it, and focus on your main points and get them through. Paradoxically, at least to you, the more you write, the less people will read because it's so damn boring.

By the way, I agree with artificial limitations like those you are ostensibly against, are bad. But your presentation is terrible, and does not get your point across effectively. People will still disagree, but at least you'll they'll read what you're saying and be exposed to your views. Instead of a rambling, poorly focused monologue that very few will read, unless they are trying to get some sleep.

Okay, TA, I agree with you. No need to get so salty. It's hard to be concise. I rewrote it a couple of times and cut it in about half. It only takes 10 min to read now, maybe 15 min if you are a really slow reader. I don't think I'm asking too much.

 

[DeletedUser28132]

subjective opinion, I disagree.


relative and you poisoned the well with your first response, you're good for poisoning the well and muddying the waters I'll give you that much


So did his


I can show you otherwise if you like, how many threads you start? 4?


subjective

lie

subjective, I've had "lengthy" posts as well but I'm not the mudcrwaler here.

who cares if anyone happened to agree with you, doesn't make anything you have said true

perhaps you should try that, I'm quite sure you need it more than me.

lol

 

[DeletedUser28132]

I understand just fine and it's simply muddying the water. By characterizing it the way you are you're attributing a sole definition to it in order to pigeon hole the opposition to prove a point when there's no need for that. I understand the term can evoke in one such things but it does not make it so just because someone takes it that way.

My entire point is you have to define what it is actually to snipe before you can even begin to ascertain the veracity of its pros/cons. Sure we could just set that all aside and assume, with at least an obvious example like one guy in a guild has a level 80 Arc and 50,000 fp's in the bank and sits there all day watching the swap threads waiting to pounce on every single one to get first place and joins five man teams to always take first place etc. but this is merely one example that doesn't encompass the entirety of "sniping".

Saying "free trade" kind of confuses the issue with goods trading so not sure why you would say that.

I fixed it. Thanks for the advice.

 

[DeletedUser28132]

I do not believe that forge points should have seniority. If you do not want to be sniped, then do the math, and do not contribute to a Great Building without getting locked in.

Thanks for your reply. This is a very concise way of summing up my entire post.

 

[DeletedUser30900]

I highly recommend you seek professional help.

If i can only pick one thing you said right here i pick this one, he needs help

 

[Woody*]

Good post (yeah, it could still be shorter) with solid logic. However, IMO there is no right or wrong answer here, it's more an issue of what individual players want. If you want a family style or touchy-feely guild then sniping should be discouraged despite the fact they leave things open for outsider snipes and are less efficient. If you prefer efficiency, a no sniping guild is obviously the way to go.

However, in both cases there might be middle ground. I'm in a guild with no rule against sniping but show restraint when people need prints for OBS and other GBs, and when they have obviously invested a lot of the way to the prize. Nothing generates animosity in a guild like sniping, even in one that clearly has no rule against it so our high Arc owners all try to show some restraint (most of us also give 1.9s when we do snipe, so there is no argument about the efficiency of our snipes when we do it).

And in a guild with a no-sniping rule, the costs to level for the GB owner can get horribly out of control without sniping. In those cases, someone should snipe them to put them out of their misery.

 

[DeletedUser28132]

Part of the 'charm' for us arrogant types. It's hard to temper all the condescending tells. That and when they come from the 'I am right and will die on this hill to prove it!' it's hard to discern if they are really trying to convince others of their viewpoint or just looking for a fight by virtue of differing opinion. I usually assume the latter when the personal insults are trotted out. Kind of like the majority of the early posts made. I think reputation is a big part of how people react. If I or another "Well-Known" member made this post, there would be a slightly slower rush to troll OP. That's the internet and humanity for you. 10% nuggets of wisdom, 90% garbage spewing. I try to average 13% nuggets myself.

Regardless of intent, clothes making the post, early mouse getting the cheese or the second bird gets the worm; I think the big difference is how people define respect and where they set the bar for their fellow man.

Consider the following:






As SJS alludes to earlier: Who gets to define the differences between good or bad? Is it a strict binary switch or are there shades of grey? Is it selfish for someone to demand their family take care of them when they have lost the ability to take care of themselves or is it selfish for the family to contract the care to an institution?

Depends on the family's values. Which a lot of these discussions boil down to once you strip away the FP numbers and GB economics.



This is the most important question for anyone who considers implementing a no sniping rule. Understanding who can use the system to their benefit and track that will help leadership root out the bad actors versus the earnest mistakes. When someone argues you 'just know' the right thing or some other abstract 'feeling' argument, then you should be wary of that leadership's intent. Intuition can be a wonderful tool, but it lacks the analytical intelligence to support and keep the people in power from making mistakes, or worse, abusing their power.

To augment JCera & Stephen's side of the argument: Swap threads allows for a hybrid contribution race; It is controlled and overseen by guild leadership and laid back to promote team-building over cutthroat profiteering. This is why the 'No-sniping' portion is implemented, to stamp out profiteering between guildies and direct it towards hoodies or 'enemy' guilds. Unfair feelings is where a lot of drama can spawn from, so it makes sense to erect systems that help minimize it. Free Trade systems are less empathetic, as they focus on the numbers game with little regard to feelings of 'fair'. This is why we see many defensive arguments revolving around team-work, family and feeling based put-downs to opposing viewpoints. Even filthyhorse has waded into the feelings side of the equation by speaking to the 'negative' tone that sniping brings and framing arguments as good/bad in their attempt to convince others.

Regardless of one's views on the whole 'feels versus reals', outcomes are what we should all be interested in.

I liked some of your arguments, @filthyhorse , especially those pointing to how no-sniping doesn't solve the 'rich versus lil guy' issue. A big FP generator will dominate Swap threads and secure more top spots than smaller players. Swap threads just create an artificial queue that forces a smaller player to work harder to secure benefits. It's a first come, first served system that does not lend additional help to the little guy in comparison to the big guy. So any argument stating swap threads or no-sniping helps the poor doesn't hold any weight and weakens any related arguments.

I also liked the points relating to giving more owner control, like personal swaps, can allow the player, regardless of big/little status, to achieve their goals easier than a highly regulated/controlled system. I don't think 'no-sniping' rule alone makes a system highly regulated, but it can certainly compound an issue if the guild has many specific rules in regards to swap threads.

Anywho, thanks for the potentially fun topic. Similar discussion occurred recently in my guild in relation to our Arc Drop system. It made me realize how I am in a weird 'middle class' of FoE Players. I am a little guy, when you analyze me from a Arc perspective, but I can dominate part of the 'swap thread contribution race mini-game' due to my FP generation and banked FPs.

Wow, fantastic post, Titris. I'm beginning to wonder if I really do want to debate this. You're obviously a bit over my head and I"m afraid you could somehow convince me the sun doesn't shine.

I'm going to pour over your thoughts here and think about them. I will say this much, you bring up one point that I may be willing to concede: The argument has little to do with what is the "fairest" and most economical way, etc... to get things done, rather it might have more to do with how people perceive things. If they perceive things as being unfair it doesn't really matter if it's true or not. They will revolt, or quit, or what have you... Thanks again for the great reply.

 

[DeletedUser28132]

Good post (yeah, it could still be shorter) with solid logic. However, IMO there is no right or wrong answer here, it's more an issue of what individual players want. If you want a family style or touchy-feely guild then sniping should be discouraged despite the fact they leave things open for outsider snipes and are less efficient. If you prefer efficiency, a no sniping guild is obviously the way to go.

However, in both cases there might be middle ground. I'm in a guild with no rule against sniping but show restraint when people need prints for OBS and other GBs, and when they have obviously invested a lot of the way to the prize. Nothing generates animosity in a guild like sniping, even in one that clearly has no rule against it so our high Arc owners all try to show some restraint (most of us also give 1.9s when we do snipe, so there is no argument about the efficiency of our snipes when we do it).

And in a guild with a no-sniping rule, the costs to level for the GB owner can get horribly out of control without sniping. In those cases, someone should snipe them to put them out of their misery.

Thank you, Claire. I will concede that perhaps if you don't acquiesce to the demands of the more illogical players that things could go haywire, and that is the major unknown to me in this argument. However, I'm not sure if we have our terminology straight when it comes to the term sniping. You mentioned that a player "invested" a lot of way to the prize: Are you talking about a player that actually paid for a spot? If so, I would consider that true sniping and say it is very bad form, but if the position was only gained through swaps, there is no investment because there is no loss.

I don't want to get into philosophy here, that would open up a giant can of worms, but at what point do you allow, or even enforce, good policy in spite of what the people want? Just because people are demanding things for free doesn't mean we should give it to them. Even if they threaten to revolt, it could set a precedence for chaos.

A few more things: I think I prove in my post that the "touchy feely family" thing you speak of that a No Snipe Rule provides is a fantasy. We delude players into thinking their swaps are safe, but in reality, there are so many ways around it, they are not safe at all. Primarily, the whales will bump you if they want, and they do. Worse, you will be more vulnerable to outsiders bumping you if a No Snipe Rule is in effect.

Also, I am in no way suggesting that bigger players should not help smaller players along, even by sometimes allowing them to have these top reward spots. I'm just saying their are other ways to accomplish this than the draconian No Snipe Rule.

Thanks for a great reply.

 

[Ta 152H]

subjective opinion, I disagree.


relative and you poisoned the well with your first response, you're good for poisoning the well and muddying the waters I'll give you that much


So did his


I can show you otherwise if you like, how many threads you start? 4?


subjective

lie

subjective, I've had "lengthy" posts as well but I'm not the mudcrwaler here.

who cares if anyone happened to agree with you, doesn't make anything you have said true

perhaps you should try that, I'm quite sure you need it more than me.

Actually, everything you've said is subjective, and that's what a forum is about.

And yes, that everyone agreed does matter, it shows that subjectively it was too long for most people. You live here, so it's good for you, but if you ever develop something outside this forum, and use it as a distraction rather than the central point of your life, you'd probably have the same reaction.

You give me way too much credit with regards to the well, I rarely have much influence on people, and did not make other people say the same thing. That's weak, even for you. Please make an effort not to say stupid stuff we both know isn't true.

You can start threads, but your content is invariably vapid to me. But, that's subjective. I just never find any of it insightful or interesting. Probably someone does though. Someone not me.

What you call a lie is obviously caused by your failure to understand the context. I have never made a post like I did here on the length of your post. Yes, you are long-winded, imprecise, and redundant fairly often, but we all are at points(including me), so I give people some slack. But the initial post here was way beyond anything I've done, and probably what you've done. That's why it solicited the remarks it did, not because I got someone to say so. Normally people take the opposite view of what I have, just because I'm so blunt, and you know it.

So please say something intelligent or useful in your next message. If you can't, ask a friend to help you, if you have one. You don't seem like a bad guy, so if you don't, just take a shower and go out there and enjoy your life, instead of living it here. You'll meet people and be happier. Don't use this forum as a substitute.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

Actually, everything you've said is subjective, and that's what a forum is about.

And yes, that everyone agreed does matter, it shows that subjectively it was too long for most people. You live here, so it's good for you, but if you ever develop something outside this forum, and use it as a distraction rather than the central point of your life, you'd probably have the same reaction.

You give me way too much credit with regards to the well, I rarely have much influence on people, and did not make other people say the same thing. That's weak, even for you. Please make an effort not to say stupid stuff we both know isn't true.

You can start threads, but your content is invariably vapid. But, that's subjective. I just never find any of it insightful or interesting. Probably someone does though. Someone not me.

What you call a lie is obviously caused by your failure to understand the context. I have never made a post like I did here on the length of your post. Yes, you are long-winded, imprecise, and redundant fairly often, but we all are at points, so I give people some slack. But the initial post here was way beyond anything I've done, and probably what you've done. That's why it solicited the remarks it did, not because I got someone to say so. Normally people take the opposite view of what I have, just because I'm so blunt, and you know it.

So please say something intelligent or useful in your next message. If you can't, ask a friend to help you, if you have one. You don't seem like a bad guy, so if you don't, just take a shower and go out there and enjoy your life, instead of living it here. You'll meet people and be happier. Don't use this forum as a substitute.

You are the master of projection and slimeball tactics, 90% of your posts are nothing more than that, that much is true, objectively. You could never approach a fraction of what I have provided by way of useful posts on this forum because, well that's not what trolls do. But you keep on projecting sunshine cuz it's all you got.

 

[Ta 152H]

You are the master of projection and slimeball tactics, 90% of your posts are nothing more than that, that much is true, objectively. You could never approach a fraction of what I have provided by way of useful posts on this forum because, well that's not what trolls do. But you keep on projecting sunshine cuz it's all you got.

You again fail to understand what objective and subjective is.

And no, your posts are very pedestrian, and without any insight. I'm sure you think they're useful, but really, without any insight, they aren't. It's not your fault.

If it's nice where you are, take that shower, and go out and meet some people. Just do it. You'll be happier, and it will improve the content of the forum. I'm stuck at work or I'd go out (also the weather sucks here, as usual). If you can't, maybe get a dog or something to keep you occupied. Don't let the forum suck the life out of you, because you're not really good at it anyway.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

You again fail to understand what objective and subjective is.

And no, your posts are very pedestrian, and without any insight. I'm sure you think they're useful, but really, without any insight, they aren't. It's not your fault.

If it's nice where you are, take that shower, and go out and meet some people. Just do it. You'll be happier, and it will improve the content of the forum. I'm stuck at work or I'd go out (also the weather sucks here, as usual). If you can't, maybe get a dog or something to keep you occupied. Don't let the forum suck the life out of you, because you're not really good at it anyway.

You're right my trolling is not as good as yours, I freely and without shame admit that.

 

[Ta 152H]

You're right my trolling is not as good as yours, I freely and without shame admit that.

No worries, nothing you do is as good. Why should trolling be any different .

How's the shower going? Remember to use soap. Maybe even Brillo. Avoid sandpaper unless strictly necessary .