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Swap threads. A terrible idea.

Algona

Well-Known Member
I would like to hear some of the ways you find it difficult to enforce the No Sniping Rule. That's the sort of things we should be discussing in this debate. Thanks for your reply.

When I ran my Guild it was a somple matter for a few reasons.

1) While i had not put it in words at thar time, I do have an objective definition of sniping I'm happy with.

2) I was part of a triiumvirate of Founders, the other two gave me explicit powers of judge jury and executioner in all matters of Guild discipline.

3) I know exactly why sniping a significantly lower power/era/progress/level Guildie is bad for the Guild.

So with absolute authority and objective definitions and reasons behind what I was doing, it really was prettu straightforward process; a matter of education of the Guild. It helped that from about the time I was drafted as Co-Founder through now I;ve been one of the top 5 ranked players in the Guild and for some ungodly reason have a reputation of being a mad scientist with a good knowledge of the game.

So i started with my two partners in the triumvirate and explained what I wanted to do and why.

Then to the top tier Guildies and the Guild Council and explained to them what I expected and wanted. Namely, don;t snipe t3h scrubbush n00bs instead zen them on what they were doing wrong.

Then I started working with the mid level players. Same thing, Don't snipe scrubs, instead take the opportunity to teach.

Then I made it a Guild wide rule, that I was the sole judge of. Don't snipe lower level players. There were some exceptions, if a GB was opened to the Guild for bidding, or if a player made the same bidding mistakes repeatedly, but all in all it worked quite well. Only had to boot a few folk over a couple years, and they were crappy Guild mates in other ways.

Sniping stopped in Guild. n00bs learned how to not get sniped and how to wreak havoc amongst their hooods. Because there is a wonderful spinoff of teaching some how not to get sniped. They learn how to snipe.

No fuss, no muss.

---------

An aside, I;ve been wandering from Guild to Guild following the Way of the Peddler for about a month now. One of the things my Guild was good at was fostering a sense of helpfulness and teaching. This rapidly became apparent tto me as I look at different Guilds that it;s not that common. Good Guilds, top notch Guilds do a lot of teaching.

That has nothing to fo with the topic at hand, just sharing an observation.
 

DeletedUser31882

I have a problem with your referring to the very beneficial act of paying for a reward position and bumping down someone who paid nothing as "cutthroat profiteering". Would you say the same about virtually every item on earth that is sold?

Yes and No.

On the one hand, Capitalism(or trade in general, but I default to capitalism since it's the system I know best) is great when the spirit of it is followed. Competition to make the best product/service while minimizing the cost passed to the consumer. Technology advances spurred and everyone pushing each other to do and be better. Ideally.

On the other hand, Bad actors corrupt the spirit by maximizing the cost being passed down to the consumer and minimizing the work done to create a better product. Hence regulations, fines and such. If all business actors were 'ideal', regulations wouldn't be needed. Then we can get into bad actors crafting the regulations... and we can devolve into politics.

So I agree that 'cutthroat profiteering' can be a disingenuous label, especially if applied to everyone who snipes. The label is more a touchstone for those who find another person's actions as unjust or unfair. The no-snipe rule, unspoken or not, is a regulation to control bad actors. When morality gets wrapped into a rule, it can become hard to discuss the bigger economic issue because any deviation from the rule can be viewed as a blackguard's attempt to take advantage of the flock.

Eh, I'm doing it again.

We may speak the same language, but that doesn't mean we are speaking the same language. I believe cutthroat profiteering is one of those terms that changes drastically depending on which language one uses. If the other languages term is "the very beneficial act of paying for a reward position and bumping down someone who paid nothing" then the smaller, 'simpler' word will have the high-ground in arguments.

filthyhorse said:
This is OSTENSIBLY why the no sniping rule in implemented. In reality, it does nothing of the sort. It does occasionally work, but at a greater cost than the benefit it provides, and also, as discussed at length, it can and is easily worked around. I believe I prove it hurts the smaller players more than it helps them by providing a false promise of "help".

Yarp.

Anecdote: I've resisted the call to snipe a guildie in the swaps threads. Not in the "0 contributed -> profit lock" kind of snipe, but a 'If I pay 10FP, I will lock X place and profit by +3FP'. Why? Because the ambiguous rules don't tell me if that is acceptable or not. I've seen other guildies perform such maneuvers, but that doesn't necessarily make it 'right'. I ended up going with my gut. Gut said my intent was personal gain, thus selfish profit motivation was pushing me to snipe. Since I wasn't 100% sure on the 'good/bad/acceptable' value of the action, I abstained. I then punished my gut by doing some bicycle crunches.

Conclusion: Clear instructions from leadership helps. In fact... @empireforger12 posted a 6 minute video in another thread in regards to rules that may be applicable to the topic of specific rules versus 'gut' rules.

filthyhorse said:
Two things: A win/win transaction is more sympathetic than a win/loss transaction, so free trade wins here. Math. Second, I believe the defensive arguments spawn from the illusion that that something was promised for free and was not delivered. I added this analogy since you last read my post, but if you had people line up for a chance to get your car for free if it doesn't sell, of course they are going to be mad at the person that comes along and buys the car. It's all perception and human nature, but the reality is nothing was lost. There was no harm.

Agreed on the win/win > win/loss transaction. The issue is taking Math (typically viewed as cold, uncaring and the tool of 'bad profiteers') and making it understandable & palatable to someone who has a predisposition to dislike or reject it. It's a hard sell from the get go and a small misstep will throw the speaker into the 'misguided enemy camp sympathizer' at best and 'conniving cutthroat profiteer' the majority of the time (I assume. Then again, real-world politics may be clouding my vision there).

filthyhorse said:
This is laughable. Are you suggesting I'm human?

.
...! Darn SJWS! I can't even assume species anymore, can I?!?
*Shakes fist at cloud*

On a more serious note: I blame assuming coupled with the refusal to understand a differing point of view as the root of many problems. Some say money is the root of evil or absolute power corrupts; I say evil does a great job of making excuses for itself to escape responsibility. I'm not sure how that all connects to the topic, but I have a rock farm to bleed.
 

DeletedUser28132

On the one hand, Capitalism(or trade in general, but I default to capitalism since it's the system I know best) is great when the spirit of it is followed. Competition to make the best product/service while minimizing the cost passed to the consumer. Technology advances spurred and everyone pushing each other to do and be better. Ideally.

On the other hand, Bad actors corrupt the spirit by maximizing the cost being passed down to the consumer and minimizing the work done to create a better product. Hence regulations, fines and such. If all business actors were 'ideal', regulations wouldn't be needed. Then we can get into bad actors crafting the regulations... and we can devolve into politics.

With all due respect, your take on how Capitalism fails is wrong, but also, FoA sniping rules on swap threads do not follow the complication and flow that a free market possesses. This is a closed system. This game is, in many ways, nothing like real life, so I cannot accept Capitalism as an example. What we are talking about in FoA is simply this: one party wants something for nothing, the other is willing to pay for it. When I use the term "Free Trade" I only mean it in the sense that it applies to this game, not in the general economic way. With this in mind, the only person "profiteering" is the player that gets rewards without paying for them. This is the person the No Sniping Rule protects.
 

DeletedUser28132

I made an edit to the beginning and title, and added a summation to the top for tldr purposes.
 

DeletedUser27848

Please contact: ThruTHEhead and CoreAndExplore, they are seeking players such as yourself, to start a new 'Super Guild'....
 

DeletedUser28132

I stopped when you told me to read the whole thing. Who the fuk are you to tell me what to do?
I’m going to snipe all your GB’s
Please do. If you read the post you would realize that's exactly what people want.
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
And if you read the post you'll see that this thread is a year and a half old.

He wrote the original thread.

Please do. If you read the post you would realize that's exactly what people want.

You already replied to him rwo years ago. See post 47.

Why on earth are you futzung around with a two year old thread?

And yes, I read your edit of the first post. Confusing way to handle your revelation about Swap Threads. You should have started a new thread and linked to this thread.

Highly recommend you copy your edit from the first post to your newest post, this will alleviate some of the about to ensue confusion.
 
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