Swap threads/unsolicited donations/sniping(?), is this wrong?

[DeletedUser27889]

We have found a point of civil contention in my small, close knit guild and I’m looking for outsider perspectives.

One mate hunting prints donated a large amount to another after he saw the building on the swap threads. That mate did not benefit from a FP perspective (this is not an arc sniping issue, no arc, FP return well into the negative) but did only lock the spot once he noticed other people on it from the threads. I will post the example:


This brought about a difference in opinion of swap thread etiquette and donation etiquette where most found themselves firmly on one side or the other.

Group 1 feels that someone watching the threads to pounce for prints is wrong and view adding any additional points than through swap threads as sniping guild mates. They feel spots on GBs should be earned more through vigilance on the threads than to those who have more FP to spend. The opinion is the same if it is contributed as a single large amount of points all at once or slowly over the level. All in all the view is donating more than the swap you take, or donating anything outside of a swap and knocking a mate out of a spot is not good team spirit.

Group 2 feels that if someone wants prints there's nothing wrong with donating to a GB in addition or outside of the swaps to get a spot. As the donator is not profiting from a FP perspective, they don’t view this as sniping. As receivers of donations and as people donating for prints they view donations as beneficial. They feel the FP of swappers is paid back during the swap and positions should go to who is willing to pay more for them. They view donating as a needed way to gain prints and donating as helping mates they would rather help mates with donated points than hood or friends.

I’ve tried to write this as equal as I could to not show my allegiance to whichever school of thought I fall into. Since discussing it both groups understand that no one was attempting to harm the guild or their mates but the difference of opinion as to what proper ettiequte should be going forward is alluding me.

I cannot think of a compromise between these two opinions and welcome anyones suggestions. I’d also like to know what your personal or guilds swap thread etiquette is when it comes to unsolicited donations between mates?

 

[qaccy]

Doesn't fit my definition of sniping. #1 put on way more than was needed to simply lock the spot. Group 1 sounds like it wants way too much exclusivity in an activity that's open to everyone in the guild. There are (or can be) private swap groups for that sort of thing. Nobody in an open swap thread is owed anything more than the FP they're contributing to it.

Needless to say, I'd be in group 2 here lol. As long as there's no blatant sniping nor someone throwing an Arc around for profit, I don't see a problem here.

 

[Emberguard]

I think this is something that needs to be resolved through a standard procedure in regards to sniping guild GBs in general. Either sniping is ok within the guild without prior agreement with the GB owner or it's not.

Spoiler

Beyond that then there needs to be discussion as to if you're using mixed methods that are going to take up the top positions whether those positions should first be locked in and secure before the remainder is done in swap threads, and if the remainder is done in swaps whether there needs to be positions left on the GB to take for it to be eligible to use the swap threads. And if there aren't then what about those that only use swap threads? Should they also be required to take the GB out of swaps once the lowest positions are no longer viable for players that have not yet swapped onto the GB or are they allowed to continue for the remainder of the lvl?

Whatever measure is used to dictate to the snipers also needs to be used with those that use swap threads on a regular basis.

The discussion point really is "what is the point of the swaps?". If you want a guarantee then really there needs to be groups of 6 members per swap that only swap to each other. If you only want a maybe then you should expect that not every contribution will be fruitful. But within that we have a problem of if there are enough players with significantly higher incomes then the rest of the guild and they all put everything into the swap threads then no one else would get a look in anyway.

Conclusion: Personally I don't see much difference between what you've shown and if I take every swap I can because I have a higher FP income - it's just skipping some steps in the owners favour, but it needs to handled with a guild policy of whether mixed methods and/or sniping (one way unsolicited transactions) are allowed within the guild. Either everyone should be allowed or no one. If the swap threads aren't working from too many players organise groups upto 6 members to swap with each other

 

[DeletedUser]

My (player) opinion is that since the rest of the donations are through regular guild swap threads, there is nothing wrong with what the top position player did. If it were a GB from a swap club, then that would be a different story, but only if that player knew that a club was donating to it. I understand what the others are saying, but the flat truth is that they're wrong in their perceptions of the "guarantee" of rewards from a swap thread.

On the semi-related subject of someone who uses the swap threads, but donates more than the required amount, that can be a real problem. I know that I will post a GB in multiple swap threads, but only after calculating whether the donations from those will level that GB. It would only take one person donating extra to have the awkward situation of the GB being listed in a swap thread for an amount that would more than level it. The situation you describe could have done the same thing, but you didn't specify that, so I won't go into that any further.

 

[Amyality the Relentless]

Dropping a large amount of fps to secure a spot for rewards on a gb over other contributers - sounds like the definition of sniping to me. We don't allow it in our guild.

An alternative that works for us is to contact the owner of the gb and work out a deal to donate BEFORE it goes on the swaps. Then everyone can see top spot is already occupied. No one has to contribute to that gb if they do no want to do so. They have the choice. Sniping takes away that choice.

 

[DeletedUser31540]

This is why ive given up on swap threads and swaps in general ...

To profit from them a player needs to be super vigilant (able to pounce at any given moment), needs to constantly police the threads from violations and wrong-doings, and needs to be aware of and on the lookout for potential backdoor deals with another player which could jeopardize one’s reward placement

All this and then you have to wait around for the fps to be added to your buildings ... too much to handle for me. I stick to 1.9 drops and self-leveling

In terms of your guild i can sympathize with both perspectives but i fall mostly into the 2nd camp. Mostly because its easier to enforce an anything goes approach than a ‘u must strictly obey’ approach ... if your guild is small enough the 1st group’s perspective becomes more appealing as it would actually be semi-feasible to moniter wrong doing

 

[DeletedUser15539]

My take is that high level Arcs have made swap threads obsolete. Yes, you can enforce no-sniping among guild members (though as Manda pointed out, this particular instance can't be called sniping), but there will always be a friend or neighbor with a high level Arc who will size the opportunity that the swap thread members have created.

 

[DeletedUser36624]

Reason #41 why I don't do swap threads.

 

[DeletedUser36020]

Camp 1 is being unreasonable imo. They already received their payment when placing in a swap thread. The reward spots are only an added bonus if u add enough. That first spot doesn't have their name on it.

In addition the player that "sniped" added far more than lock in. If he had that fp income to blow he could easily just stalk the threads and still get that position and probably spend less. Making it harder on everyone else.

 

[DeletedUser37581]

I cannot think of a compromise between these two opinions and welcome anyones suggestions. I’d also like to know what your personal or guilds swap thread etiquette is when it comes to unsolicited donations between mates?

There really is no suitable compromise between the two positions. There are various methods one can use to mitigate such as a guild policy stating that taking positions is always allowed, or using smaller semi-private swap threads.

Another problem that many guilds have is that a handful of players with cities that generate a large amount of FPs can dominate the swap threads making large profits over and above getting their FPs returned. That isn't much fun for the smaller players either.

And then there's the argument that if guildies are not allowed to snipe profitable positions, then non-guildies are being given first choice to get profits.

 

[Freshmeboy]

Manda, it's a snipe regardless of profit, period. As you know, I believe that snipes are a good thing because its a gift that helps players grow, regardless of motive. If you have rules about sniping then implement them or change them but any mode of growth for individuals or guilds as a whole, ie. events, DC's lucrative out of era trades, etc. should be considered a good thing.

 

[qaccy]

Manda, it's a snipe regardless of profit, period. As you know, I believe that snipes are a good thing because its a gift that helps players grow, regardless of motive. If you have rules about sniping then implement them or change them but any mode of growth for individuals or guilds as a whole, ie. events, DC's lucrative out of era trades, etc. should be considered a good thing.

How is it a snipe? Are you saying that whoever puts the first FP on a level immediately has dibs on #1 and anyone who passes them is a sniper? In Manda's example image, the person who grabbed first place not only significantly shortened the time needed to level up the GB, they paid more than 2x what the next person put in which means they're getting a smaller reward back from the spot relative to their payment (#2 pays out roughly half of what #1 does). In addition, if this was done outside of the swap thread, they aren't getting back the 1:1 trade that all swap thread participants are receiving. The idea that your spot on a GB is claimed as soon as your name is next to a given chest and anyone who bumps you down is a sniper just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Kranyar the Mysterious]

I just quit a guild I had joined recently because the top player was using the swaps to prime his buildings, then when first and second would get close to lockable, he would stop the swaps and let his friends take the spoils. He also sniped my Arc for minimum lock that had just been unlocked and was in the process of being added to by my donor (we are talking less than a minute from unlock to snipe here). Both of those situations I believe are wrong, which is why I left. Any deals should be completed before putting the building on the swap threads so people have an idea what is available and can choose to donate or not.

Keeping guildmates happy is what keeps a guild together. Keeping a guild together is profit for everyone.

The example given is tricky. I personally fall into the second camp on this one. But with caveats like it shouldn't happen too often, etc.

 

[DeletedUser29404]

Clarify within the Guild, what the Guild policy is regarding sniping/swapping.
My view is to keep outta swap threads. Especially if you cant be "vigilant" and "hawk" that particular GB 24/7. IMO those are "lost" fps. Your not adding to gain anything, unless you can "vigilantly" watch for THAT GB to come up, again and again. The *only possible benefit to swap threads is getting the other guildies help in leveling your own GBs, but again, you need to have the requisite forge points available to "swap". Private swaps, and 1.9/1.85/1.8 threads with lockable spots are worry free. Use the 1.9---1.8 threads to lock up 1st-3rd, and have private swappers fill in the bottom. They get what they need, nearly guaranteed, and the owner benefits from having a reliable source of daily donations to that particular GB

 

[DeletedUser38090]

I myself don't participate in swap threads, but I view them as a way to build a tight-knit guild culture and bring in some camaraderie in the Great Building leveling process. Guild members putting a bunch of forge points, especially in the context of being greedy for prints, in outside of the swap group kinda destroys the teamwork process in swaps.

I find it silly to waste so many forge points to get a measly 2 or 3 BPs, and create animosity in an otherwise drama-free guild, when one can easily find somebody powerleveling the GB that they want the prints for, friend that person, and perhaps secure 5th place with 30 or so FP and get BPs for 10 FPs or less each. I would give that guildie that tip so he/she won't ruin the swap.

I will put myself solidly into the 1st camp, simply because helping a guild member desperate for prints to find powerlevelers, and preventing drama with a well-maintained guild swap is better for both parties. The guild member spends less forge points for his prints, and the guild swap participants get the kind of rewards that they want.

 

[Triopoly Champion]

My take is that high level Arcs have made swap threads obsolete. Yes, you can enforce no-sniping among guild members (though as Manda pointed out, this particular instance can't be called sniping), but there will always be a friend or neighbor with a high level Arc who will size the opportunity that the swap thread members have created.

Typically I reserve #1 and #2 for the Arc 80 players, then #3 - #5 for the swappers.

I've joined a large guild which is low in Colonial Treasury, so they need my Arc, as long as I finish my GE level 1 weekly, don't owe fps from the swaps, then I'm totally good since they don't have enough income of daily fps to earn #1 or #2 from my Arc anyway.

 

[DeletedUser27889]

Thank you everyone, I really appreciate all your thoughts and opinions.

If it were a GB from a swap club, then that would be a different story, but only if that player knew that a club was donating to it.

No not a club, in fact in this example he specifically waits to see a GB on the swap threads, believing once something is in the swaps it's fair game but before swaps there could be deals going on he doesn't know about and doesn't want to mess them up.

On the semi-related subject of someone who uses the swap threads, but donates more than the required amount, that can be a real problem. I know that I will post a GB in multiple swap threads, but only after calculating whether the donations from those will level that GB. It would only take one person donating extra to have the awkward situation of the GB being listed in a swap thread for an amount that would more than level it. The situation you describe could have done the same thing, but you didn't specify that, so I won't go into that any further.

Good point but that wasn't an issue here. The owner of this specific GB was very appreciative of this donation. But this was only one example that brought about a bigger conversation. During the group conversation we had I learned members who did not want donations (those in group 1) had previously messaged him to not donate to their buildings outside swaps and he obliged. When it was mentioned they would rather he and others not donate to any guild GBs in the swaps, the owner of the most recent donation took exception to being told they shouldn't be receiving donations. Any drama or hurt feelings about it have been hashed out as both groups have a greater understanding of where the other is coming from but a practical solution from here out hasn't been.

Dropping a large amount of fps to secure a spot for rewards on a gb over other contributers - sounds like the definition of sniping to me. We don't allow it in our guild.

This was originally going to be the compromise I could think of, just don't drop them in all at once but when the point was brought up of 'any donation' being considered a snipe being 10 points to move up a spot towards the end or slow donations from a print hunter over the course of a week being considered a snipe it's not something I can think of a way to work around.

In terms of your guild i can sympathize with both perspectives but i fall mostly into the 2nd camp. Mostly because its easier to enforce an anything goes approach than a ‘u must strictly obey’ approach

Agreed. I'm not sure how we would go about a flat no donations rule. Or even a PM the owner and ask permission rule, monitoring such things would seem like a ton of work -whose there from swaps, do all the amounts add up, PM anyone who put on anything extra, PM owners to see if they made a deal- I'm not sure if thats something other guilds have done before and how to even go about cross checking everything.

Manda, it's a snipe regardless of profit, period. As you know, I believe that snipes are a good thing because its a gift that helps players grow, regardless of motive.

I've come to understand different people have vastly different opinions of what a snipe is. I've even heard some people calling a sweet spot 1.9 agreed to lock as a snipe and may have even called it that myself so others would understand what I meant. I can understand a large swoop being considered a snipe and for ease of communication it makes it easier to call it that but to me this doesn't hold the same connotations as 'sniping guild mates' There's no close FP amount, there's no profit motivation and there wasn't even the bare minimum lock amount typically associated with negative guild relations I've come to know. That was the example anyway but group 1 also considers any time a donation knocks a swapper out of a spot as a snipe. 10 points to move up a spot- snipe, 5 point non solicited donations everyday to get a spot-snipe. That was a definition of the word I hadn't come across before.

It just seems we (and I am guilty of it too) use the word snipe to mean so many different things it's clouded whatever the true meaning of it is. 1.9 lock= snipe. Hoodie locking for minimum=snipe (fits my definition). Large amount of FP donated at once = Snipe. Locking any spot all at once = Snipe. Adding to a GB while someone else is adding to it and racing them = Snipe (fits my definition) Knocking anyone out of a spot no matter the difference of FP= Snipe. Anyone locking a spot without the owners permission no matter % given = Snipe.

I just quit a guild I had joined recently because the top player was using the swaps to prime his buildings, then when first and second would get close to lockable, he would stop the swaps and let his friends take the spoils. He also sniped my Arc for minimum lock that had just been unlocked and was in the process of being added to by my donor (we are talking less than a minute from unlock to snipe here). Both of those situations I believe are wrong, which is why I left. Any deals should be completed before putting the building on the swap threads so people have an idea what is available and can choose to donate or not.

Keeping guildmates happy is what keeps a guild together. Keeping a guild together is profit for everyone.

Yeah arcs really can complicate things. In my experience guild animosity begins when big arcs are brought into the picture and the only way to combat that is to be proactive about rules. In my other, much bigger guild with big arcs priming for 1.9 thread in swaps is not allowed, you may put them in swaps after locks for the lower spots but mainly those are just given away. I have experience with mitigating arc problems but this not being an arc issue it's a first for me.

I myself don't participate in swap threads, but I view them as a way to build a tight-knit guild culture and bring in some camaraderie in the Great Building leveling process. Guild members putting a bunch of forge points, especially in the context of being greedy for prints, in outside of the swap group kinda destroys the teamwork process in swaps.

This is a perfect, exact opinion the portion of the guild who feels this way described down to the very wording. Is this an issue you and your guild have discussed? I can understand helping them find power levelers but unfortunately that doesn't help the portion of the guild who want to be on the receiving end of the donations. Sending people outside of the guild to donate is viewed akin to taking free points away from them. If they weren't a member they could get donations- if they are a member they can't.


Overall I think the best I'm going to be able to do is have the owners of the GBs make a statement on if they are willing to receive unsolicited donations or not. Perhaps we can keep a list in a thread people can refer to. If those in camp 1 want to be more secure in swap threads they can reserve swapping with just the people refusing donations. If people need to donate for prints they can donate to anyone in group 2 or work out a private trade with anyone in group 1. I think allowing the owners decide what they will allow on their buildings is going to be the only possible compromise I can come to.

Thank you everyone for your replies.

 

[Emberguard]

@Manda the first in that case here's my suggestion:

Make it a opt in system. Anyone that didn't opt in is off the menu for unsolicited donations of any amount.

 

[Graviton]

Overall I think the best I'm going to be able to do is have the owners of the GBs make a statement on if they are willing to receive unsolicited donations or not. Perhaps we can keep a list in a thread people can refer to. If those in camp 1 want to be more secure in swap threads they can reserve swapping with just the people refusing donations. If people need to donate for prints they can donate to anyone in group 2 or work out a private trade with anyone in group 1. I think allowing the owners decide what they will allow on their buildings is going to be the only possible compromise I can come to.

That sounds like way too much work. I would probably just find another guild.

There have been multiple proposals over the years intended to allow GB owners a measure of control over who donates to their GBs. Each one has been not only voted down but shouted down. If you don't want unsolicited donations, don't go public with your GB, meaning don't post it in a guild thread. If you want to limit donations, then send a message to only those you want to donate to it.

 

[DeletedUser]

Overall I think the best I'm going to be able to do is have the owners of the GBs make a statement on if they are willing to receive unsolicited donations or not. Perhaps we can keep a list in a thread people can refer to. If those in camp 1 want to be more secure in swap threads they can reserve swapping with just the people refusing donations. If people need to donate for prints they can donate to anyone in group 2 or work out a private trade with anyone in group 1. I think allowing the owners decide what they will allow on their buildings is going to be the only possible compromise I can come to.

I agree with Graviton when he says:

That sounds like way too much work. I would probably just find another guild.