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syringes and needles

Discussion in 'Debate Hall' started by Hero Tactician, Jul 10, 2012.

  1. Hellstromm

    Hellstromm Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    If a pretty woman came up to me and offered me $30 to have unprotected sex with me, I may just take her up on it. hehe

    Now, seriously, what you're arguing has nothing to do with syringes and needles, it has to do with homophobia and prostitution. If someone supplements their income, or affords their addiction, through prostitution, then address the addiction and the business of prostitution. However, do not endanger the greater community in the interim.

    If a drug user uses dirty needles, he OR SHE may contract a disease (not merely HIV, but Hepatitis, viruses, bacterial infections, etc). It's bad enough they have an addiction, no need to cost the taxpayers more money by the expense of medical care for treating diseases/infections that could have easily been prevented had they used clean needles.

    As to the notion of contracting a disease from participating in prostitution, it is shortsighted to examine only the prostitute and the john. You must also consider all the people who interact with the john, the peeps who are "NOT" predators (as you call them) and instead are in some way associated with the john, or the sometime-prostitute. The spread of disease is not selective, unlike your judgmental nature. ;)

    As to this whole predator label, perhaps there are a few predators in the mix, but it is generalizing to label them all as such, particularly considering that "prostitution" is not considered exploitative in many cultures. In the U.S., for the most part sex is considered wrong or sinful, with the selling of such even moreso. But the U.S. position is actually a minority position, not shared by the bulk of the world. In most of the world, sex is considered sex and can be deemed a commodity if you can sell it for a profit. And, in all things requiring physical contact, it is imperative protections are provided.

    Addressing this further, just as boxers and wrestlers, nurses and police officers, physical contact can result in contraction of a disease during sport or work. They are subject to obtaining diseases/infections from people who have infections and should be protected. Provision of clean needles decreases the likelihood of obtaining said diseases.

    Here's an example: I worked in a mental health facility for a time. Some of the patients would occasionally carry needles in their bags or person, and we would be tasked to inventory their items. Doing such sometimes subjected us to contact with such items, with needles --- used ones. Also, occasionally a patient (sometimes a person flying on drugs) would become out of control and staff would be tasked to restrain them. A few health practitioners and police officers obtained Hep-C or other diseases because of such contacts (needle- or injury during a takedown).

    So, you still against providing clean needles?
     
  2. Nicklesbe

    Nicklesbe Guest

    Free needles = more needles more needles = more discarded needles in the streets, in parks, and even on school playgrounds. Junkies rarely care where they discard needles and I've seen enough broken ones around town to know that giving away more needles will just spread disease, increase addiction, and make the cost of maintaining our streets, parks, and schools that much more expensive. The real question is does the tiny bit of good that it might do outweigh the damage experience and history shows it would do?
     
  3. Hellstromm

    Hellstromm Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Do you have any evidence to support your assertions regarding "discarded" needles/syringes and how that creates a health hazard, or whether there are any documented instances of harm caused by such?

    I mean, you can make up anything... but can you back it up?
     
  4. Nicklesbe

    Nicklesbe Guest

  5. Hellstromm

    Hellstromm Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Good, you covered the former. Have any evidence to support the latter?
     
  6. Nicklesbe

    Nicklesbe Guest

    "There has been one confirmed case of hepatitis C transmission from a community needle stick injury. This occurred in Spain in June 2005 and was from a needle discarded in a cemetery." http://www.portphillip.vic.gov.au/syringes.htm Mind you that study was in Australia and not the US. Thankfully currently the risk is very low, close to zero. However that is because of the current system we use it can be hypothesized that if we switch to a free needle system that the risk of exposure to disgarded needles would increase.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2012
  7. Hellstromm

    Hellstromm Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    A convenient assumption on your part, but there are already existing States that dispense clean needles and no reported rise of playground needle infections (none in the U.S., as far as your research indicates). So the point here is, the risk is very low, with "one" confirmed incident seven years ago.

    Contrast that with the spread of diseases (hep-c included) via use and storage for reuse of used needles --- the risks to health care providers and law enforcement alone provides ample reason to institute clean needle dispensation programs.

    I.e., while it may sound like a scary scene, the thought of mean and nasty needles hiding in bushes and stabbing poor, innocent kiddies in playgrounds is largely just a scare, as the vast majority of diseases that can be contracted from dirty needles have very short open-air lifespans.

    One main reason for encouraging use of clean needles is so that users don't share needles with each other, posing a short timeframe between stickings and thus a greater likelihood of infecting each other via blood/fluid transference. The more infected/diseased drug users, the more likely others (non-drug isers) can be infected. Just common sense.

    Was a good try though. I mean scare tactics are out there and many programs have been instituted almost entirely off the dimes and media hysteria collected through scare tactics. But they really just get trumped when actual facts and figures are brought to the table (or at least they should).

    If someone is inclined to research, I recall some annual reports on the amount of professionals that were infected by dirty needles, along with annual reports of professionals infected by exposure to drug users with contractable diseases that can be spread by dirty needles. Might be an interesting addition to these debates.
     
  8. Nicklesbe

    Nicklesbe Guest

    Speaking of actual facts, mind providing proof of existing states that dispense clean needles? Can you provide proof that there is no reported rise in playground needle infections in the US? Do you have any proof that these annual reports you recall about professionals infected by dirty needles exists? Do you have any proof that the annual reports of professionals infected by exposure to drug users with contractible diseases exists? Do you have evidence that proves that "nasty needles hiding in bushes and stabbing poor, innocent kiddies in playgrounds is largely just a scare", and is that true for every single playground in the united states? Can you provide evidence that every single playground in the US has a low chance of having needles in it? Have you ever been to a playground in a bad part of Baltimore? As you may not know Baltimore is the Heroin capital of the US http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92699&page=1#.UBDbbfUeWSo. It's just common sense that the largest area in the US with most needle using Heroin addicts would also have the highest chance of coming across a discarded needle.

    You make allot of claims but you don't provide any proof of your claims, mind doing so?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2012
  9. Hellstromm

    Hellstromm Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Nope, not providing evidence of a negative. You brought up a particular argument (needles in playgrounds). I allowed you to demonstrate your argument was valid. You failed to do so. I'm done.

    But by all means continue the debate. I provided a few recommendations as to what to research for those who wish to participate in the debate, that is all. ;)
     
  10. Nicklesbe

    Nicklesbe Guest

    I apologize Hellstromm I'm just being a dung-head and that's not right nor is it fair to you. I honestly take your word for it, and to be honest I just asked to see if you'd do it with no real expectations that you actually would. I know you're not some fuddy-duddy that just makes things up. You are a very intelligent person with a wealth of knowledge that I respect and do not doubt. Please do not take that as ars kissing, it is simply just an honest opinion. If I were ars kissing I'd say you were the bestest-smartest person in the world and that you are never ever wrong. However I respectfully disagree with that simply because no one is perfect and everyone is fallible. None of that really matters tho so before I digress too much..

    I admit and agree with the fact that the whole idea of kids getting stabbed by needles in parks is really nothing more than just fear mongering and evidence will no doubt show that you probably have a better chance of getting bit by a black bear and a polar bear in the same day. My only true question/concern is if every state adopts a free needle dispense system could it inadvertently increase health care costs from loss of revenue? I'm sure if it did it would probably be an insubstantial amount. Also the increased demand could present an opportunity to create jobs but my question is would they, or would they just outsource the needles from a foreign company? If they do outsource the needles to save on costs could there be an increased risk of the needles becoming contaminated from being shipped from such a long distance, and could that also increase potential risk to the health of people using those needles?
     
    Hellstromm likes this.
  11. Hellstromm

    Hellstromm Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Indeed, good questions. Perhaps the issue of supply and demand may well result in a substantial and concrete revenue loss that, when contrasted against abstract savings associated with less infected persons that "may" have been infected due to dirty needles, could very well result in such programs being halted due to insufficient justification.

    Oh, and I took no offense to your baiting efforts. hehe
     
  12. loganx

    loganx Guest

    solution to all drug use

    the best way to solve the drug problem is to make all the drugs legal, and to give all of the users mass quantities of free drugs along with very dirty and diseased needles so that they can overdose and kill themselves off faster. don't waste time and my tax dollars sending them to prison. they don't even care, treir brains are fried. don't waste anything sending them to rehab, as they say once you are an addict it is a disease and you will be an addict for life. just send each user a truck load of whatever they use and lock them in their homes intil they are all dead. then when they are gone the rest of the people will see the futility of drugs and never begin in the first place. do you see how the simple solution is the best solution. not only could that end the drug problem, but it would also clear out a lot of prisons also as most of the people in prisons are there for some kind of drug related offense in the first place. whether it be using or dealing. or stealing for, or murdering for.




     
  13. Daniel

    Daniel Guest

    You seem to have a gross misunderstanding of drugs and the reasons for why people go to prison regarding drugs.
     
  14. loganx

    loganx Guest

    do you mean to say people who do too many drugs don't die? and that other people who get caught selling drugs, using drugs, and robbing, stealing and killing for drugs don't go to prison? is that what i don't understand? because that is what i have been led to believe. and i'm pretty sure it is true. and until i see a mountain of proof to the contrary that is what i will continue to believe.
     
  15. Dude. Not cool. If that is what you truly believe, if you truly do not care about the lives you think we should throw away, I will think you heartless but accept it. You can't force yourself to care. But suggesting this is inappropriate and in incredibly poor taste, especially considering you just said you'd be happy to encourage Hero Tactician to die. He is a real person and is probably reading this and you are well aware of that, and you said it anyway. That is not okay.

    There's this thing called basic decency. Perhaps you should look into it.

    That said, I support distribution of clean needles for reasons that have been explained pretty well already.
     
  16. Dominotx711

    Dominotx711 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    hmmm, i have to say I really don't give a hoot myself about addicts proper. I more support clean needles for those who aren't addicts. Not out of some decency clause of people who self medicate.
     
  17. Hellstromm

    Hellstromm Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Actually Loganx, it would cost a lot of money to distribute drugs, which is a contradiction to your core argument of saving money. You also completely ignore the issues of safety for others. Loganx, the discussion is about syringes and needles, your comments are illogical, inconsistent, and are baiting. Please add to this discussion, not go off on illogical tangents. If you truly hold these positions, cite evidence in support.

    Do you have any evidence or is all this a mere dismissal of life? It seems to me your claim is that someone who takes drugs doesn't deserve to live. I wonder how you would feel if it was one of your loved ones with a drug addiction, or if this stance is held because they are all strangers to you, at which point we must ask, are only your friends' lives valuable?
     
  18. loganx

    loganx Guest

    well as fate would have it many years ago one of my best freinds in high school was a user and an addict. i knew about it all along but he was a pretty decent person otherwise so i didn't care about his using as long as i wasn't around. and when he died from an overdose many of my friends acted as if it was some big surprise that they didn't see coming, as if it were some big shock. now while i had nothing against him personallymy opinion was and is he had it coming to him and was inevitable. so i see no reason to feel sorry for these people. and as to the illogical money savings drugs are expensive because they are illegal, and if you legalize them and at the same time put in a provision that if you use no insurance will cover any user related problems nor will welfare or any other type of free care, then i'd say that within 5 years the problem would clear itself out. but i know this will never happen because our society is backwards. we have forgotten who we are and what we are (animals). and in nature you don't waste your time on those types that just walk up to a lion asking for trouble you just say goodbye and run in the other direction.
     
  19. ...The decency thing was in reference to Lonanx's thoughtless post, not the issue at hand. Though I'm not sure why addicts are somehow less worthy of clean needles than first-time or casual users.

    As for your new proposition, Loganx, I suspect the reason that will not be implemented has less to do with people failing to realize that humans are animals and more to do with the fact that people will (hopefully) be hesitant to change law based on what is apparently pure, 100% speculation on your part. Do you have anything to actually support your claim?
     
    Hellstromm likes this.
  20. Dominotx711

    Dominotx711 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Since you quoted me, I am going to assume this was directed toward me?

    I wasn't to offended with his post once I read through all the run ons, and punctuation errors. It was not untrue, but rather quite to the point of his opinion. Why waste time and effort on frilly words?

    They aren't less worthy than a first time or casual user. Where have I ever said that? If you would read up, addicts can, in my opinion, contribute to various health issues that the rest of society must then deal with. When I say "not addicts" I refer to those who are fringe effected. Personally, and addict gets what they get, if it didn't put the rest of us at risk.
     

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