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Total Ban on Abortion

Discussion in 'Debate Hall' started by mamboking053, May 17, 2019.

  1. bridgetmcb

    bridgetmcb Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
    And that is what this is always about in the end -- not the precious children, but the damned women who are making choices about their own bodies. It's really just about hating women in the end.
     
    Manda the first and Praetorius like this.
  2. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    No. It's thinking that women adopting one the worst historical traits in men, uncontrolled fornication, is not progress.

    I indeed want damned women to make choices about their bodies. If you're going to be sexually active, make the choice to correctly and consistently use birth control, and insist that your partner do the same. All the time, every time. If your partner won't kick them to the curb or run like hell.

    I would tell the same to any man. If any woman encourages you to mount her bareback, run like hell. I also tell men that if they're playing around, they're playing Russian Roulette with a false rape allegation or being a daddy when they never intended to.

    Since as we both know, women have the ultimate say, the final go / no go, once that woman has made the choice to go bareback and 'take the risk' she, in that moment, accepts all that comes with that decision and risk. Meaning, if you engage in that one thing, sex, designed to have only one result, the creation of a life, and you engage in it unprotected, and you create a life, then you're stuck with all the consequences that come from having made the decision to have unprotected sex and risk created a life.

    That means carry it to term, keep it and raise it yourself, without Government assistance. If you can't raise it without Gov't assistance or don't want to raise it, then put it up for adoption. Mistakes happen, I get it. I also get that we need to accept the consequences and responsibilities that come with our actions, learn from our mistakes, and move on.

    The fundamental problem I have with the whole thing is that women want freedom to choose to have sex, what they don't want are any of the consequences that come with it. No different from a man who encourages a woman to get an abortion, he doesn't want the consequences of his actions either. Sorry, when the result of not accepting the consequences of your actions is the death of an innocent human life, you don't get to skate on the consequences.

    You want to make choices, make choices. With those choices come the consequences of those choices. Plain and simple. Grow up! It's not okay to kill babies because you can't control yourselves. Control yourselves. Empower yourselves to be better. Both women and men.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
    B1ackWo1f likes this.
  3. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Here's the problem with that statement. In consensual situations the woman already made a choice. They chose to reproduce. That's what sex is. Someone always made a choice

    In regards to loving the child, if we didn't care about the child it wouldn't be an issue. And yes in cases of rape it wasn't the mothers choice. But abortion is a choice. Just as stealing, abuse, murder and lying are choices. Yet each of those things you don't get away with ordinarily by saying you made a choice.

    The defining factor of right and wrong isn't whether we made a choice. It's what choice was made. We grieve, does it now make it right to take it out on others? No. Is it understandable? Yes. I can sympathize with the mothers plight but I cannot endorse rash or bad decisions that are fundamentally wrong.
     
  4. Alskah

    Alskah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    I am back to simply spectating, but I completely agree with your statement on this. I would not have worded it quite this way, but, yes a disdain for women and a hate for women is what this translates to ultimately, in the end. NOT a love for an embryo (cells inside another person's body). I womans choice to get an abortion is rarely cut and dry. Many different women get them for many different reasons. Just as it's not always, actually very few abortions are, d/t rape. It's also not always because a woman was "irresponsible". Maybe a better thing for the pro lifers to be doing, as opposed to whatever they are doing now, is support a sex education initiative... but since many of them oppose that as well, that probably wouldn't work. There is a bigger problem here than just abortion. A bigger problem than women "making poor decisions". Maybe it really comes down to people being quick to judge and quick to be part of the problem and slow to be part of the solution.
     
  5. lukerduke the wise

    lukerduke the wise Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2019
    Again, I hate to say this over and over again, but there is always adoption!!! How do you not understand that adoption fixes the problem of women making mistakes or being raped, even. There is an adoption system in place so that families that will love and care for the child can take care of it
     
  6. HtebazilEAB

    HtebazilEAB Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018
    I agree with Razorback. The whole purpose of sex is to reproduce, any pleasure is just a byproduct. If you choose to reproduce then you should have to deal with the consequences. In the same way, driving while intoxicated might get you killed, it is your choice and you have to live with it (or not). Btw, I am also not a fan of contraceptives either for the simple reason that studies have proven that women who took them (past tense, no longer taking them) are over twice as likely to have complications later on when they might want to have kids. Also there is some debate as to whether it also increases the chance of birth defects...

    How about someone tell me why people can't simply *not* have sex unless they want kids? Would that really be so hard? Not only would there be no unwanted pregnancies, but this would also help prevent the spread of certain unwanted diseases.
     
    RazorbackPirate likes this.
  7. Alskah

    Alskah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    Phenomenal point on the purpose of sex... lucky for the entirety of the human race along our evolutionary journey we developed consciousness and awareness and a superior intelligence. Allowing for us all to think and feel, do and be more than just are basic biological needs. We have elevated ourself so far beyond that. Opening the door for any of us to even be able to have these conversations, or Express ourselves. We would ALL be in sad shape if we didn't think our do anything beyond taking care of our basic needs.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  8. HtebazilEAB

    HtebazilEAB Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018
    When I said that pleasure is a byproduct I meant it. But let me propose two scenarios: Scenario one, the one I plan on, when you don't have sex until you are married and on your wedding night after the 'death do you part' (not till divorce do you part!). You get to look your husband or wife in the face and tell them that you are only theirs, neither one has any real idea about sex but they both get to learn together as they go along. Can you imagine how special that wedding night is, experiencing that for the first time together and knowing that it is with the person you are going to spend the rest of your life with?

    Scenario two, the one most people go with, when you do have sex, even if it is with the person you do marry but before the vows are said. What is there special about that wedding night? Wouldn't you feel special if you knew that your partner had saved themselves just for you instead? Would you feel that same specialness if they had had sex with countless others? I am well over 20 years old and still a virgin, and if I never marry then I will die a virgin without any regrets.
     
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  9. Alskah

    Alskah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    Okay, I feel like this is way off topic, but I'll respond with a scenario of my own : a man and woman marry under one of your given ideal circumstances. The woman becomes pregnant, after marriage, according to plan. But because life rarely ever plays out the way we would like or intended it to and the are so very many variables, the good wife learns of some medical issues that she had been previously unaware of. She consults her medical dr and gynecologist. They conclude that a pregnancy would be extremely high risk and potentially detrimental to her health. She gets a second opinion to be sure and the same response. The wife decides she does not want to risk her health or life for the pregnancy and chooses to abort the early pregnancy. Leaving open the door for this man and woman to be able to adopt a child in need of a loving home...
     
  10. HtebazilEAB

    HtebazilEAB Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018
    While that might be the one and only situation in which I might could understand it.... I happen to know one mother who had extremely difficult pregnancies, nearly dying about three times or so (that I know of). This same mother did not abort and continued to have children in spite of the high risks, doing all she could to minimize them of course, and having a total of 13 children and a few near deaths and miscarriages in the process(grieving each miscarriage and the family even having funerals for them even when if she was only a few weeks along). Not everyone believes that 'high risk' is worth aborting. Some of her kids are my age and she is now enjoying grandchildren and one daughter is a midwife who hopes to specialize with helping 'high risk' pregnancies. True, she technically risked her life each time, but she felt it was worth it and so would I. As I said, this is the one and only situation in which I might see that aborting might be considered, but I would rather die myself than kill a life that I helped to create before it even gets a chance to see a rainbow or smell its first flower.
     
  11. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Welp. Then I'm dead.
     
    Alskah likes this.
  12. Alskah

    Alskah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    We all have choices. The woman you're speaking of chose one course. The wife in my scenario chose another. Are either of them wrong? No. It's a personal choice for an individual to make. You don't get to choose in what specific set of circumstance something goes from evil/unforgivable to conceivable/forgivable. To many women an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy would/ could be completely devastating. Their actually physical life doesn't have to be at risk for this to occur. As long as the procedure is taking place per the regulations of the state, clinic.
     
  13. Alskah

    Alskah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    And you have the right to make that decision for yourself.
     
  14. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    xD No I meant the decision for me to live or die. (though yes that too if the roles were reversed)

    Doctor kept pushing for an abortion mum refused because it'd be aborting on the off chance something might happen. I'm the 5th child. Doctor then tried to side step by asking for tests to see if there would be any mental illness just in case. To which mum also refused because (a) if doc's trying to force an abortion the test results can't be trusted (b) the doc himself said the tests could cause the very thing it's testing for if it damages the embryo (c) the only reason to test for anything is to abort if it comes back positive on anything.
     
  15. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    As a side note here, not a big fan of contraceptive either. Regardless of what it does or doesn't do at the time of reproduction, in the event they fail (and they're more likely to fail then succeed especially with the pill having little to no leeway of missing a dose) then you're already in the kind of mental space that leads to getting a abortion. Of course not everyone who takes the pill will abort, but it would get you used to the idea of getting rid of it before you have it which makes it a slippery slope
     
    HtebazilEAB likes this.
  16. HtebazilEAB

    HtebazilEAB Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018
    'Devastating" to have an unwanted pregnancy because... she is immature? In that case she was probably too immature to be having sex anyway. If it is devastating because... she is afraid what people will think of her (assuming she only has to carry the baby until it is born and then put it up for adoption), then just maybe the friends she has are not true friends that would support her. There are places/homes for young women (founded by Christians) where women with unplanned pregnancies and no family or friend's support can go to and the place will give a place to stay and help with babysitting and the mother get a job if she chooses to keep the baby. It is literally impossible to have an unexpected pregnancy if you are not doing that at all so I won't even mention that one. What exactly makes a pregnancy 'devastating?'

    As for the regulations, they can be a bunch of baloney in some cases. One group did a study and found that underage girls (who technically need parental permission at the very least to get one if not an investigation to make sure that they were not abused by an adult) were going into the clinics and getting them done anyway, being pressured into them *against* regulations and without any investigations. Even assuming that some of those were because of incest and that the girl wanted to abort, there should have still been an investigation which would have helped to remove her from that situation, but the state regulations were not followed by the abort-happy doctors. And that is just one of the regulations broken that I know of. I could list a couple more. As Embergaurd said, doctors really push for them. Why? It is an easy way to make money. Sometimes the baby parts and pieces are even sold too, so they get paid twice.
     
  17. Manda the first

    Manda the first Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    No other human is given the right to command control over another humans body or their organs. Notice how were not all rounded up and hooked up to dialysis machines or forced to give kidneys to strangers. This law doesn't give embryos equal rights it gives them more rights than women. If a fertilized egg is life then what is 9 months of pregnancy? A joy ride? Pregnancy is that woman allowing her body to create that life, this law is forcing that woman to create that life against her will. When you take emotion out of it embryos are parasitic organisms kept growing by it's host, the woman. This can be a wonderful thing when it is wanted and a horrible thing when it's not. No one on this earth has any knowledge of the 'hows' the 'whys' of souls and when and if such things even exist. We do know for certain women exist and many of them are telling you they do not want to grow a being inside of them.

    We can talk until were blue in the face about forced mother hood but it doesn't even need to get that far. If it is a complete human life it would be able to survive without being attached to another human life. Remove it and see how it fares... Doesn't work? That's because it requires a human life (the woman) to give it life and it should always be her choice if she is willing to sacrifice her body to make it possible. Unlike that embryo, she is an actual human and her's is an actual human life.

    If embryos are life what happens to IVF? Not all embryos can be implanted so does this make not implanting a non suitable one in a host a crime or is it only a crime when it's already taken to a host? How about frozen embryos, these are all the same 'human lives' if a couple doesn't use them do they and all the fertility doctors go to jail or again just the woman for refusing to act as it's host?

    We have thousands of pregnant women in jail right now. If these embryos are human life how are they to be jailed based on the crimes of it's host? That would go against all of our current laws.

    Stopping unwanted pregnancy would be as easy having all males required by law to have a vasectomy at puberty. They are typically reversible, have far less side effects than woman's hormonal birth control with a higher degree of success, pain and recovery time is far less than giving birth. Think it's crazy to have the government, (or better if the government was mainly women) trying to legislate testicles, forcing men to do things with their reproductive organs against their will to punish their sexuality? I agree, I just happen to think it shouldn't be happening to women either.
     
  18. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Those are certainly logical points. It does miss one important point though, abortion is someone avoiding or trying to eliminate consequence of action (to self)
     
  19. Alskah

    Alskah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2019
    The only part I'm going to reply to on this is Drs are making far far more money on a pregnancy and delivery than they are an abortion. And if it's a c section, that's the real pay day....
     
  20. Manda the first

    Manda the first Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    If we are keeping things logical and non emotional then abortion, by medical intervention is the correction to that action. Now that could be the frequently cited and most hated 'as means of birth control' abortion or medically advised or medically preferred abortion. If you go skiing and break your foot, you are able to see a doctor to correct your foot. You are not told to 'deal with it for the rest of your life because it's what you deserve'. If you overdose and a doctor is there to save you they are allowed to try. I couldn't even begin to count the amount of risky situations stemming from what might be selfish or indulgent behaviors that people are allowed, unquestionably, to seek medical attention for and their treatments are decided between them and their doctor. Why are we treating Aids patients or people with STDs if outcomes of sex are deserved, warranted and beyond medical reproach?

    But were not even talking about seeking safe treatment from doctors for people's risky behavior at this point, were talking are you allowed to try to set your own foot without going to jail (or being executed) because you did something that rendered it broken.
     
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