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What difference does it make?

*Arturis*

Well-Known Member
Watching all the hearing from all scandals happening lately in our government, putting all the political motive aside, one thing stand out as a common is that nobody is taking any responsibility/accountability from what is going on under his/her watch anymore ranging from Fast and Furious, IRS, Benghazi, AP subpoena. Is anyone at the helm running the country or we are just like a drifted ship floating across the big ocean with no destination, which brings up a question: can we count on our government official anymore in this great country? Should we trust them with our security/well being/money? Your thought.
 
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DeletedUser

complacency, zero accountability, and greed have corrupted and perverted our society to such a degree that you get the result you see today. untill this changes prepare to remain "adrift" on the great big fail boat that is our country today.
 

DeletedUser

MasterChief, you got a pretty good handle on this one. It is true, there are so few people who will take responsibility for their actions, financial or social; so many who are looking for the big bucks without working a day in their life; "ambulance chasers" and "lotteries" offering "big payoffs" cheap; just to name a few of our pile of woes! Blaming it all on politicians (most of them lawyers) is another case of "Not me" being the reason for our troubles. I am not a fan of Michael Jackson, but he nailed it when he said "I'm starting with the man in the mirror".
 

DeletedUser3422

It is true, there are so few people who will take responsibility for their actions, financial or social; so many who are looking for the big bucks without working a day in their life; "ambulance chasers" and "lotteries" offering "big payoffs" cheap; just to name a few of our pile of woes! Blaming it all on politicians (most of them lawyers) is another case of "Not me" being the reason for our troubles. ".

Sounds like teenagers.
 

DeletedUser

What is lost in the whole scandal feast of the media is that some of these scandals are not actually scandals per se, they're media and political driven witch hunts. The affronts done by the IRS or the Justice Dept are not logically or reasonably faulted at the feet of the administration at present since the agencies in question are in practice and theory removed from the political apparatus as they've been designed to be . Many people, politicians and media gloss over the fact that the Justice Dept and IRS are independent agencies.....again independent.

That won't stop conspiracy theorist of course as we critical thinking people realize though. It's a shame that the political and media landscape currently in the US allows for such pseudo-drama, but is anyone really all that surprised?
 

DeletedUser2785

What is lost in the whole scandal feast of the media is that some of these scandals are not actually scandals per se, they're media and political driven witch hunts. The affronts done by the IRS or the Justice Dept are not logically or reasonably faulted at the feet of the administration at present since the agencies in question are in practice and theory removed from the political apparatus as they've been designed to be . Many people, politicians and media gloss over the fact that the Justice Dept and IRS are independent agencies.....again independent.

How can the agency in question be removed from the political apparatus when they are appointed by the Politician-in-Chief?
Obama Picks New IRS Chief

OMB Controller Selected for Agency

President Barack Obama speaks on the Internal Revenue Service's targeting of conservative groups for extra tax scrutiny in the East Room of the White House in Washington, Wednesday May 15, 2013. Obama announced the resignation of Acting IRS Commissioner Steven Miller, the top official at the IRS. (AP Photo/Pablo Martinez Monsivais)


By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Friday, May 17, 2013
(Published in print: Friday, May 17, 2013)


Washington — President Barack Obama picked a senior White House budget official to become the acting head of the Internal Revenue Service yesterday, the same day another top official announced plans to leave the agency amid the controversy over agents targeting tea party groups.

If it were common practice in Washington, as it is in most Business, of best person for the job, I could agree somewhat agree about the witch hunts. However these are political appointees, and our President is the one who appoints these folks.
 

DeletedUser

The President does not hire individual underlings in those independent agencies. Those are career civil service jobs. He appoints the person to head the agency. He's no more directly responsible for an IRS Agent or manager overstepping their authority than he is for the postal worker that opened up your box of cookies from grandma, because he appointed someone to head up that agency, or something similar in the case of the Surgeon General, if the former agency's top person isn't appointed.
 

DeletedUser3

Part of what initiated the actions by the IRS has been a series of so-called tea party organizations that were actually owned and operated fronts for certain corporations and corporate-funded non-profit organizations. I.e., exploit of npo status for mass-lobbying (above what is allowed) and for direct influence on campaigns (not allowed for npos). If any mistake was made here, it was to specifically target tea party organizations associated with npos, but I think they can demonstrate "reasonable cause" if pressed.
 

DeletedUser3422

The President does not hire individual underlings in those independent agencies. Those are career civil service jobs. He appoints the person to head the agency. He's no more directly responsible for an IRS Agent or manager overstepping their authority than he is for the postal worker that opened up your box of cookies from grandma, because he appointed someone to head up that agency, or something similar in the case of the Surgeon General, if the former agency's top person isn't appointed.

Do you feel the same way regardless who is in charge?
 

DeletedUser

Do you feel the same way regardless who is in charge?

As long as there's no coercion or connection to the Senior Administration in the White House, then yes, I feel the same way regardless who's in power.

Dems and Repubs screw up alike. They both make calculated shaddy decisions as well. Neither side has clean hands. One seems less dirty than the other in my opinion however, but that doesn't mean that this current administration is the epitome of scandal free perfection. They're simply the best thus far in comparison to the previous 4-5 administrations. That isn't really saying much though.
 

DeletedUser34

Meh, but by all means we should be allowed to hold on to this administrations "oops" moments as doggedly as they STILL do to Bush's.....tomato, tomato.
 

DeletedUser

So far, no 'oops' this administration has made compares to the willful deceit perpetrated by the previous administration in dragging the nation into a secondary, unnecessary and more costly war by deliberately misleading its public.

There's an attempt currently in the politi-shpere to scandalize many issues and disingenuously connect them to the current President.

Apples are not the same as yellow-caked oranges.
 

DeletedUser34

Ahhh I understand now...
Sooo, the fact that Bush fell for one con "the iraq WMD" intelligence, he will be forever penalized. BUT...Benghazi, well by all means, his watch, his team, his administration...but it doesn't matter really....

But....fast and furious....another example of his watch, his team, and his administration, but it doesn't matter really...

I could keep going, but I already see your mindset is blame bush for everything but give Obama a pass, so why bother.....
 

DeletedUser2785

Watching all the hearing from all scandals happening lately in our government, putting all the political motive aside, one thing stand out as a common is that nobody is taking any responsibility/accountability from what is going on under his/her watch anymore ranging from Fast and Furious, IRS, Benghazi, AP subpoena. Is anyone at the helm running the country or we are just like a drifted ship floating across the big ocean with no destination, which brings up a question: can we count on our government official anymore in this great country? Should we trust them with our security/well being/money? Your thought.

I think this whole discussion turns back to the original question. Do we have a Leader? While each of the issues currently in question each have some "deniability", ultimately the responsibility lands with the person in charge. It is so easy to say this underling, or that underling did this or that. To refer to a quote from the past. " The Buck stops here"
 

DeletedUser3422

I do not agree with our president’s goal but that does not mean he is a poor leader. I think President Obama is a great leader, he has motivated the people he needed to, surrounded himself with people who are exceptional managers and extremely smart and he has used the resources on hand to accomplish his mission. The traits required to be a good leader are not the same traits required to be a great leader. Jim Jones, Che, Hitler, great leaders not good leaders. What we are currently witnessing in US politics is actually a lack of Republican leadership. This polarization is not new, Reagan and Clinton had the same effect but they had to deal with quality opposition leadership. Speakers O’Neal and Gingrich are directly responsible for Reagan and Clinton being thought of as exceptional presidents. We tend to perform better when matched with a suitable opponent. The Rs have a few freshmen who might be suitable but that is it.
 

DeletedUser

Ahhh I understand now...
Sooo, the fact that Bush fell for one con "the iraq WMD" intelligence, he will be forever penalized. BUT...Benghazi, well by all means, his watch, his team, his administration...but it doesn't matter really....

But....fast and furious....another example of his watch, his team, and his administration, but it doesn't matter really...

I could keep going, but I already see your mindset is blame bush for everything but give Obama a pass, so why bother.....

Yes, Pres. Bush will forever be saddled with the unnecessary deaths and expenditures of the Iraq war. He personally made the case for going to war there...however Pres. Obama did not have direct dealings in the run up to the attack, or in preparing the talking points from various agencies afterwards. Again, apples vs oranges.

Fast and Furious was an independent agency blunder. Again, there's no reasonable connection to Pres. Obama for those decisions.

Pres. Bush has not been assigned blame or fault for 'everything'. That's a gross generalization. However, he's certainly responsible for his own actions in taking the country into an unnecessary war, and signing the TAARP bailout, extending tax cuts for the wealthy in a time of war without paying for them. Of course I too could keep going.

No man is perfect, but some are better than others.
 

Liberty

Active Member
So far, no 'oops' this administration has made compares to the willful deceit perpetrated by the previous administration in dragging the nation into a secondary, unnecessary and more costly war by deliberately misleading its public.

There's an attempt currently in the politi-shpere to scandalize many issues and disingenuously connect them to the current President.

Apples are not the same as yellow-caked oranges.

Why is it a comparison? How about Bush stunk and so does Obama? And both did and do.

They both are crony-capitalists. Both of them. Why do some refuse to see that Obama's cabinet is lined with Goldman-Sachs? He's not any more for the little guy than Bush was. He is also every bit as much a warmonger and a trampler of the Constitution.

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No man is perfect, but some are better than others.

Someone once said...

Let no more be said about faith in man, but bind him down from mischief with the chains of the Constitution.

It doesn't matter anymore what little letter is after their name. We have traitors on both so-called sides of the aisle.

- - - Updated - - -

Part of what initiated the actions by the IRS has been a series of so-called tea party organizations that were actually owned and operated fronts for certain corporations and corporate-funded non-profit organizations. I.e., exploit of npo status for mass-lobbying (above what is allowed) and for direct influence on campaigns (not allowed for npos). If any mistake was made here, it was to specifically target tea party organizations associated with npos, but I think they can demonstrate "reasonable cause" if pressed.

From what I have researched, that was not the case, Hellstromm. What the government did is so unconstitutional, it shouldn't matter whether you like the tea party or not. A government that can do it to them, can do it to you tomorrow. Principles matter. The sad thing is that Americans used to know that.

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Bush and Blair should be tried as war criminals.

Probably and probably a lot of others too.

What do you think should happen to Obama for approving the drone murder of the American citizens, Al Awlaki and in a separate attack, his 16 year old son?

Ya just gotta love the President's "Kill list". America's Founding Fathers must surely be rolling over in their graves. And hey, wasn't Obama going to close Gitmo like 5 years ago? Yet, how many people are still there who have not only not had a trial, but have not even been charged? I also remember the Democrats raising hell about the wars, as they should have, but it's ok when Obama does it? Our government overthrows the government in Libya and hands it to Al Qaeda? What's up with that? And now, the warmongering neocons on both sides of the aisle are wanting to give aid/arms to the Syrian "rebels" who are allies of Al Qaeda. Something is wrong with this picture, folks.

There is very little real difference in actions between the two major parties anymore. Sure, the rhetoric is different, but not really the actions. They are both sold out to the highest bidder.
 
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DeletedUser

Why is it a comparison? How about Bush stunk and so does Obama? And both did and do.

They both are crony-capitalists. Both of them. Why do some refuse to see that Obama's cabinet is lined with Goldman-Sachs? He's not any more for the little guy than Bush was. He is also every bit as much a warmonger and a trampler of the Constitution.

- - - Updated - - -



Someone once said...

Let no more be said about faith in man, but bind him down from mischief with the chains of the Constitution.

It doesn't matter anymore what little letter is after their name. We have traitors on both so-called sides of the aisle.

- - - Updated - - -

The comparison is apropos as the other member was wont to do so. Suggesting that there is a comparable parallel to both Presidents is disingenuous and an example of false equivocation when it comes to scandalous behaviour as POTUS.

Pres. Obama is inarguably disappointing in some ways while Pres. Bush was clearly either willfully deceptive or wholly incompetent. I'm not sure which was more detrimental to the nation of the previous Commander-in-Chief.

There's plenty of legislative evidence to conclude that Pres. Obama is thinking and acting on behalf of the 'little guy'. I won't suggest that Pres. Bush wasn't ever attempting to 'look out' for the 'little guy' but his legislative track record isn't as extensive in that area.

Both are capitalists, i agree. Both employ members of Wall Street, i agree as well.

I'm not sure where the Constitution was trampled under Pres. Obama, but that may just be paranoid parroting from sources that earn income and profit from espousing such opinion.

Traitors is a bold claim to make. I'd suggest moreso that there are opportunists on both sides of the aisle.
 

DeletedUser2785

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Sharpshooter
No man is perfect, but some are better than others.

Are not ALL folks "EQUAL"?

I am a bit older than most of you. Maybe age has given me a different perspective. My parents would often ask me "If jimmy jumped off the cliff, does that make it right for ME to jump also?"

The original question for this thread is " What Difference does it make?"
"With all due respect, the fact is we had four dead Americans. Was it because of a protest, or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided they’d go kill some Americans – what difference, at this point, does it make? It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again, Senator."


Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/paul-b...at-difference-does-it-make-was-#ixzz2UwdjAA8o

We can not change what has happened, but like she says, what can we do to prevent it from happening again? Just because every Administration in the modern age has had it's share of scandal, flaws or mistakes, does not mean we must accept this as "NORMAL". We do not need to jump off the cliff, we can guide this nation back where it needs to be.

It is the resonsibility of who ever is in charge to place people in positions of responsibility that will do what is in the best interest of the Nation,not just as "political favors" and to supervise to make sure they are doing so. Clinton got his pass using the FBI and the IRS to target political foes, so it does not surprise me to see Obama doing the same. Seems as if some of you think that Bush used the military for personal retaliation, just remember that we knew the Chems were there, because we gave them to him.

Folks, take a look at the world around you. Could you and would you live in a Nation governed by a theocracy? (Sharia law?) Could you and would you live in a Nation like is being reported in North Korea? Could you and would you live in a world that would wipe you from the face of the earth because you are Jewish, Christian, Agnostic, Atheist, pink, purple, blue or green? I could go on with many issues facing us today. But it goes back to what difference does it make.
 
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