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When can we stop pretending GBG is balanced?

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
@ wolfhoundtoo I fully understand all that. And how to encourage them to be part of all that goes on in the guild. I also know how long it can take to get all that going. Especially in a newer world with a lot of newbies who join a guild but think they can play a solitary game.. Not talking about that though. My concerns are with the GBG part of it only. The total lack of real competition is the main thing. Even if there is plenty to keep interest in the rest of the guild areas. GbG season starts. you do your best to encourage the newbies to give it their best shot. You tell them how good they are doing, how their effort is helping the guide (and each other) And they like the rewards. But it does not take anyone long to realize they are going to get them without really trying. You get to the centre, you get the 4 centre tiles. You start working back out. Still no movement from any other guild in the mix. Then boredom starts setting in. There is not even the challenge for experienced players of keeping a good checkerboard going. If some way was found to develop longer term interest in the lower levels of GBG and get newbies more on board so they knew what to expect by the time they get to platinum. I think it would help balance things more.
I have no idea why guilds sign up then do nothing, but they can and they do. All that means is you'll soon be in Platinum where you'll begin to face some real competition. That your guild is working it's way there should be encouraging enough, if that's your encouragement.

Do well and you'll be able to join in a checkerboard game, where rewards will still come easy, if you can keep up. GBG is just a way to spam rewards. How many rewards your guild mates want to spam largely will come down to time and interest. Don't expect others to love the parts of the game you love, or put the same effort into the parts of the game that you love.

I also don't know what you mean by, "encourage them to be part of all that goes on in the guild." What all goes on the guild that they so need to be a part of?
 

The Lady Redneck

Well-Known Member
@RBP This will sound nuts. I am in a very young guild in one new world that has some great people in it. The leaders and founders all have experience as do one or two of the members. some more than others and they all want to make a go of the guild. But the rest is made up of complete newbies. who have (Believe it or not) completed the tutorial without even realizing there was more than that to the game. (These are not kids) The one thing they have all said to me is "We do not know what we are supposed to do next". They though that now the tutorial was over all they have to do is collect the coin and any other stuff that they get and that is them playing the game. A couple have overcome the shock that this is not the case and we are now encouraging them to actually explore the game and ask questions. Teaching them how to use the message board,and how to actually send a message, use the paperclip etc etc. use swap threads. The fact that there has to be communication within this guild they have joined is also a totally new concept.
Some however are still silent. The one thing they all have in common is that the only games they have played before FoE have been the solitary phone games. They thought this game would be just the same.

Also I do not expect them to develop their interests along the same lines as I do. They have to find what is best in the game for them. If I did I would be telling them just what my opinion of GBG really is. And tell them to get a PC so the can play GvG and dump their phone or androids or whatever

So in answer to your question All that goes on in a guild is what they need to be part of.
 
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RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
@RBP This will sound nuts. I am in a very young guild in one new world that has some great people in it. The leaders and founders all have experience as do one or two of the members. some more than others and they all want to make a go of the guild. But the rest is made up of complete newbies. who have (Believe it or not) completed the tutorial without even realizing there was more than that to the game. (These are not kids) The one thing they have all said to me is "We do not know what we are supposed to do next". They though that now the tutorial was over all they have to do is collect the coin and any other stuff that they get and that is them playing the game. A couple have overcome the shock that this is not the case and we are now encouraging them to actually explore the game and ask questions. Teaching them how to use the message board, and how to actually send a message, use the paperclip etc etc. use swap threads. The fact that there has to be communication within this guild they have joined is also a totally new concept.
Some however are still silent. The one thing they all have in common is that the only games they have played before FoE have been the solitary phone games. They thought this game would be just the same.

Also I do not expect them to develop their interests along the same lines as I do. They have to find what is best in the game for them. If I did I would be telling them just what my opinion of GBG really is. And tell them to get a PC so the can play GvG and dump their phone or androids or whatever

So in answer to your question All that goes on in a guild is what they need to be part of.
It sounds to me, having experience, leadership is doing what needs to be done. As far as members, some will get it, and some won't. Some will put in the time and effort to learn, and some won't. A guild is a voluntary association, the amount of effort a player puts into the guild voluntary as well. Don't expect more than they're willing to give and if it's not enough, kick them.
 

The Lady Redneck

Well-Known Member
Don't expect more than they're willing to give and if it's not enough, kick them.
We are just about at that stage. It has been a long time since I have had to deal with total noobs. It is fun. But I just wish the initial levels in GbG were as they should be. I just feel that Bronze league could have been a great tool. But it is what it is. And would be as well not being there at all.
 

wolfhoundtoo

Well-Known Member
Obviously, there isn't that much interest in the lower ages (for that matter I haven't seen much interest in some of the higher ages) but the ones running the guild must be happy with whatever rewards they do get from it. You want it to be more competitive well go back and read the thread. Most of the people suggesting changes want it to be more competitive but that's tough to do since you have no real idea of what guilds will invest the time and energy to do well and those that will take what they can get when they can get it. The same can be said for anything that is a competition against other: GE, GBG, GVG, Player vs Player (the new one), and the towers. Some are willing to put in the work some are quite happy with what they are doing because they find it fun they way they play (well presumably since they are still here).
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member
I have no idea why guilds sign up then do nothing, but they can and they do
There's a very good reason for it: End of season rewards, and to a lesser degree any rewards during the season. It's a guaranteed reward as long as you put in a combined total of 40 advances across the Guild. There's no entry fee so there's also no direct penalty to forgetting to do the minimum 40 advances aside from just not receiving anything. Most players don't realise there's a minimum participation requirement and just assume (until they find out otherwise) they'll automatically get the last place reward if they do nothing.

If I wanted to log on, spend the smallest possible time and then log off I'm not going to care about getting a amazing result in Guild Battlegrounds. What I would be wanting is to ensure I get the highest possible gain for the lowest possible effort. Takes very little effort to sign back up if I get a inactive season and gives me the possibility of rewards for the next season

Looking at the current Guild Expedition results my Guild of 27 has collected roughly 47k crowns and has a 117% completion rate. Another Guild I'm in has 49 players and collected 92k Crowns for a 115% completion.

Not everyone is in a Guild as large as that, and not every Guild will reach anywhere near 100% completion rate to get as many Crowns each week

Looking at the rewards for Copper League in Guild Battlegrounds the worst possible reward is 39,100 Crowns, highest reward is 54,600. If we divide that in half to account for GBG being two weeks then that's 19,550-27,300 Crowns per week guaranteed if you meet the minimum 40 advances. That's a pretty substantial gain for the amount of effort required, particularly if you're in a smaller Guild or a Guild that's not doing too well with Guild Expedition. Even if you're fully completing Guild Expedition that extra Crown incoming from Guild Battlegrounds is going to raise your Guild Level much faster then without it. Attrition also resets daily, so doing 40 advances in Guild Battlegrounds is much easier then completing Guild Expedition where the difficulty only resets when the rewards reset.

Even if we ignore the Crowns aspect entirely the Statue of Honor is a neat little building. It's immune to ever being plundered, has extra Forge Points for your city and Goods to the Guild Treasury that can be utilized for unlocking Guild Expedition levels. Get enough guilds only putting in the bare minimum and that becomes even more rewarding to only do the minimum as then you'll rise to Silver, Gold etc without doing much
 

Insatiable1

Member
not really. GE strictly does guild size and almost every week my guild has far less competition then GBG. Numbers mean nothing if those in the guilds aren’t participating or are already at their max capability before the end of Lvl 2 while your own guild could go well beyond Lvl 4 if the option existed. Because then their same size guild really is working at the capacity of a guild half your size


This I agree with. However you’d have a hard time making it entirely anonymous in a way that couldn’t be worked out or if anonymous have a silent unspoken alliance. It didn’t take long in the current format for guilds to work together locking other guilds out without ever communicating, and then from that later on becoming official allies that talked.

If it were anonymous you’d need to remove GBG from the global rankings. Because if you don’t you’d know from that who‘s in what league if you put in the effort to calculate prestige
In GE, the bar is percentage based, not encounter based. If they are going to mix guilds of 75 players, to a guild of 35 players, then the flag in GBG should work the same as the bar in GE.
 

Pericles the Lion

Well-Known Member
In GE, the bar is percentage based, not encounter based. If they are going to mix guilds of 75 players, to a guild of 35 players, then the flag in GBG should work the same as the bar in GE.
GE is based on percentage completion with the upper limit being 133.3% if all members complete 64 encounters. But, as I look at it this week, it's hardly equitable. There are 7 guilds, the top guild has 80 members, is ranked 15, and has won 239 gold trophies. The lowest guild has 74 members, is ranked 801 and has won 1 gold trophy. Perhaps a case could be made that GE is even less balanced than GBG.
 

wolfhoundtoo

Well-Known Member
Inno set up the ranking system (from my perspective) using the "keep it simple" approach. The biggest flaw in matchups for GE as it is currently designed is size of the guilds. It's much easier to get say 10 people to complete GE than 70. That is why it's based on sizes of the guild rather than anything else.
 

Ebeondi Asi

Well-Known Member
GE is based on percentage completion with the upper limit being 133.3% if all members complete 64 encounters. But, as I look at it this week, it's hardly equitable. There are 7 guilds, the top guild has 80 members, is ranked 15, and has won 239 gold trophies. The lowest guild has 74 members, is ranked 801 and has won 1 gold trophy. Perhaps a case could be made that GE is even less balanced than GBG.
The GE competition is all about individuall players. no one has anything to gripe about since the challenge is the same for all players (of the same Era)
The dead Guilds with a lot of members still has a lot of members. Every single week I see of seven Guilds with 75 or so member ony two, maybe three that actually play GE. So one top Guild gets to 127% completion. The next to 102% completion and third hits 72%.
The rest at 3% 2% 1% all the time. It is rare to see the four place actually hit something like 30% So clearly those individual players in GUild getting 3% or less are not even bothering. So why should anyone help them or bother at all about them.except to tell those wanting to do better. find a better Guild...
And if you are in such a Guild, move on. if it bothers you. If you think a Guild that does 1% should win something? LOL
In all three Worlds I play my Guilds require all players to finish GE 64. Failure is to be booted from the Guild.
 

Pericles the Lion

Well-Known Member
The GE competition is all about individuall players. no one has anything to gripe about since the challenge is the same for all players (of the same Era)
The dead Guilds with a lot of members still has a lot of members. Every single week I see of seven Guilds with 75 or so member ony two, maybe three that actually play GE. So one top Guild gets to 127% completion. The next to 102% completion and third hits 72%.
The rest at 3% 2% 1% all the time. It is rare to see the four place actually hit something like 30% So clearly those individual players in GUild getting 3% or less are not even bothering. So why should anyone help them or bother at all about them.except to tell those wanting to do better. find a better Guild...
And if you are in such a Guild, move on. if it bothers you. If you think a Guild that does 1% should win something? LOL
In all three Worlds I play my Guilds require all players to finish GE 64. Failure is to be booted from the Guild.
Why did you quote me? You provided a wonderful response but it had nothing to do with my post.
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
GE is based on percentage completion with the upper limit being 133.3% if all members complete 64 encounters. But, as I look at it this week, it's hardly equitable. There are 7 guilds, the top guild has 80 members, is ranked 15, and has won 239 gold trophies. The lowest guild has 74 members, is ranked 801 and has won 1 gold trophy. Perhaps a case could be made that GE is even less balanced than GBG.
GE isn't unbalanced, the participation levels of those two guilds are unbalanced. But that's a problem with the lower guild, not GE. If you can think of a better way to match up guilds than by size (and that's workable), please suggest it in the Ideas section.
 

Pericles the Lion

Well-Known Member
GE isn't unbalanced, the participation levels of those two guilds are unbalanced. But that's a problem with the lower guild, not GE. If you can think of a better way to match up guilds than by size (and that's workable), please suggest it in the Ideas section.
I agree with you that GE is not unbalanced and that the problem is lack of participation in the low scoring guilds. Can't the same argument be made with GBG? All guilds have an opportunity to recruit to 80 players. Depending on their FOE age, all of these players have equal access to the tools necessary to increase their A/D percentages. All of these players can opt in, or not, to GBG participation. All of the guilds can require, or not, ARC/OBS/ATOM/SOH. If so, theoretically, every guild has an equal opportunity to capture tiles in GBG. GBG is not about talent or skill in the sense of professional sports - clicking "auto-battle" doesn't require talent. Can the "problem" with GBG be participation within the guild? Not enough members, not enough fighters, not enough strong fighters?
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member
Can the "problem" with GBG be participation within the guild? Not enough members, not enough fighters, not enough strong fighters?
Biggest contributing factor is players simply avoid any battle that is costly to them. Doesn't matter if they are evenly matched. Doesn't matter if they could win. If it's costly to win people don't want to spend the resources to do so and are going to assume themselves to be outmatched without trying. It's not just GBG you see this in either, happens with plundering too. However it didn't take long after GBG was introduced for the two top guilds in the world I play on to realise a all out war would leave both of them defenseless from being stalemated, while having a unspoken ceasefire between those two guilds would allow them to pretty much beat every guild on the map in a longterm sustainable manner..... sustainable that is for those two guilds. It'd then be upto the other guilds to decide how much they're willing to fight back.

Now what we have is a checkers arrangement so the top guilds get a increased overall payout, and everyone else doesn't have to concern themselves with a all out war.

Also there's another aspect at play. How far up you go in ranking may have a different approach in regards to general mentality. Those at the top aren't necessarily playing the same game as those below them (in a manner of speaking)

People say they want competition, but real competition requires being willing to lose
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
I agree with you that GE is not unbalanced and that the problem is lack of participation in the low scoring guilds. Can't the same argument be made with GBG? All guilds have an opportunity to recruit to 80 players. Depending on their FOE age, all of these players have equal access to the tools necessary to increase their A/D percentages. All of these players can opt in, or not, to GBG participation. All of the guilds can require, or not, ARC/OBS/ATOM/SOH. If so, theoretically, every guild has an equal opportunity to capture tiles in GBG. GBG is not about talent or skill in the sense of professional sports - clicking "auto-battle" doesn't require talent. Can the "problem" with GBG be participation within the guild? Not enough members, not enough fighters, not enough strong fighters?
Well, participation within a guild is a problem in any area of the game. Leaving that aside, as @Emberguard points out, if two or more strong guilds on a map make an "arrangement", it is very hard for even a highly active guild to do much against them. It ends up not being guild against guild, but guilds against guild. And that's not a competition, it's just another opportunity for the rich to get richer. Which is fine for the rich, but sucks for everyone else.
 
So you think that the guild founder and leader should be able to sit on their butt, make no effort at all to encourage, co-ordinate, teach, improve the strengths of, or police the actions of the member of the guild they chose to create. and leave INNO to do their work for them?
No I don't. I was just venting. I know that Inno isn't going to take over guild decisions. I also can't tell the founder or leadership what to do as I'm lucky to be in this guild which is full and I'm #50 in the experience. But when your #50 in the guild and finishing GbG #18, you realize how powerful our guild could be if others made more effort. And yes, I'm whining...Ok, I'm over it now.
 

The Lady Redneck

Well-Known Member
I also can't tell the founder or leadership what to do as I'm lucky to be in this guild which is full and I'm #50 in the experience. But when your #50 in the guild and finishing GbG #18, you realize how powerful our guild could be if others made more effort.
That shows you are concerned for the good of the guild. OK You cannot tell the Founders what to do. But you surely do speak with them from time to time. If they really are concerned for the growth of their guild. And put that before their own game, then they should welcome a PM query or even just a comment from ANY member in the guild who is putting in a genuine effort. Even if it is just an "OK am just minion having a bit of a rant. I get ticked off when I see some who can, but do not, put in more of an effort for the guild in GBG. Just want you guys to know I am on your side if you did decide to toughen things up a bit. They are bound to be concerned so will be glad to hear from any member saying they want the guild to do better. And you are higher in your guild than I am in mine LOL. I am only #65. But that does not stop me asking about stuff that is going, or not going on. Or offering to help if I can.
 

doggonebad

New Member
For a lot of teams you do good one round then you stuck in the corner the next. Really fun when that happens. Its like playing monopoly and never getting to pass go. GBG needs change.