When can we stop pretending GBG is balanced?

[Flavius Belisarius]

This GBG discussion sounds a lot like the GvG complaints before GBG was created.
How about this idea:
When you reach a certain amount of Prestige Points (or GB Level or City size) you are capped in that world and cannot grow. You then receive an invitation to move to a new world where you start with everything you had when you were capped. This would happen again at the next cap level. This would keep moving players upwards to more advanced world populated with other players at similar proficient levels.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[Tony 85 the Generous]

He means that once a sector that your guild holds unlocks, that you can start fighting/negotiating to be able to relock it in competition against everyone else.

Unfortunately all this would do in reality is lock the whole map to just one power guild who can constantly relock, relock, relock. Nobody else would ever control anything. At least now 2 guilds are required to swap sectors, this change would eliminate that.

So only two guilds can vie for any one sector, the guild that captured it and one other? This would prevent softlocking.

people complain about alliances and swaps ..this would help eliminate that

but I don't see how it would eliminate alliances and it would certainly enhance swapping.

To prevent alliances, you need to stop the communication. I highly doubt Inno would implement a mechanism such that you could not message any one in opposing guilds in GBG. Not to mention it is easy to circumvent by teaming with someone in no guild and/or not on the map to just relay messages. Therefore, the only way I can see to prevent alliances is to prevent guilds from knowing what other guilds are on the map.

 

[Sheriff Of Rottingham]

So only two guilds can vie for any one sector, the guild that captured it and one other? This would prevent softlocking.

but I don't see how it would eliminate alliances and it would certainly enhance swapping.

To prevent alliances, you need to stop the communication. I highly doubt Inno would implement a mechanism such that you could not message any one in opposing guilds in GBG. Not to mention it is easy to circumvent by teaming with someone in no guild and/or not on the map to just relay messages. Therefore, the only way I can see to prevent alliances is to prevent guilds from knowing what other guilds are on the map.

Exactly. You would have to make it ANONYMOUS. If you can't tell who people are, and you can't message them, then you effectively prevent alliances. So at best people would have to intuit what another guild is doing to cooperate. Kinda like the real world in wartime and lines of communication are severed.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

Exactly. You would have to make it ANONYMOUS. If you can't tell who people are, and you can't message them, then you effectively prevent alliances. So at best people would have to intuit what another guild is doing to cooperate. Kinda like the real world in wartime and lines of communication are severed.

As previously metioned, there are two mechanisms easily available and much less intrusive than shutting down messenger between guilds. First, don't list the guild names in the leaderboard. Second fog out the map except for the adjacent sectors you own (similar to the archeology event). That would put a big dent in the ability to make alliances in GBG.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[Flavius Belisarius]

Dang that idea is terrible. half of the fun of playing Foe is helping younger players in Guilds. and being helped by higher Era players myself. Without that I would probably stop playing Foe.

Nothing in this idea prevents what you like.
It's like The English Futbol System (or American Baseball) where you have different levels of abilities that you progress through.
This way your Hungerford town (or Mahonig Valley Scrappers) aren't playing against Manchester United (or the LA Dodgers)
Each level would still have a wide range of experience from beginner to master.

 

[Ace-]

Here is a screenshot of our current GBG map in diamond league 1 hour after GBG opened. Before giving my thoughts, I'm

You mean,,,,, exactly what happens currently?

Who is pretending it is?

Here is the situation I run into. I’m a member of a guild that is competitive in gold league. We do fairly well and are promoted to diamond league. In diamond league we are not at all competitive because we are faced with guilds that vastly outnumber us in capability. For example, a guild where their number one player has twice as many player points as our entire 80 member guild combined. Where their 50th player has more points than our first ranked player.

in gold, the play is competitive, members are interested, participation is up. The next session we are in diamond. The map is quickly overrun by far more powerful guilds. We come in last and are demoted back to gold. Rinse and repeat.

The problem is not that we come in last. The problem is that there is little we can do for the two weeks in diamond. We are limited to a handful of outlying provinces. It is difficult to maintain interest and participation under those conditions

Ultimately it is in Inno’s best interest to promote game participation. Adding more leagues or changing the promotion algorithms so guilds are more evenly matched would help.

 

[Agent327]

Here is the situation I run into. I’m a member of a guild that is competitive in gold league. We do fairly well and are promoted to diamond league. In diamond league we are not at all competitive because we are faced with guilds that vastly outnumber us in capability. For example, a guild where their number one player has twice as many player points as our entire 80 member guild combined. Where their 50th player has more points than our first ranked player.

in gold, the play is competitive, members are interested, participation is up. The next session we are in diamond. The map is quickly overrun by far more powerful guilds. We come in last and are demoted back to gold. Rinse and repeat.

The problem is not that we come in last. The problem is that there is little we can do for the two weeks in diamond. We are limited to a handful of outlying provinces. It is difficult to maintain interest and participation under those conditions

Ultimately it is in Inno’s best interest to promote game participation. Adding more leagues or changing the promotion algorithms so guilds are more evenly matched would help.

From gold you go to platinum, not diamond.

Adding more leagues or changing the promotion algorithms would not change a thing. There will still be guilds balancing on the edge.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

Adding more leagues or changing the promotion algorithms would not change a thing. There will still be guilds balancing on the edge.

I disagree. More leagues in of it themselves would not help. The larger problem of the two is the promotion algorithm. It's not really an algorithm as much as the points structure, how many points are earned and the implicit result of finishing in the top or bottom two fo the leaderboard. Fact is that you can go from gold to diamond in two seasons and back again in the same time. This does not indicate strength or ability, only that by luck or miracle your guild managed to come in first place three seasons in a row then got out matched three seasons in a row. With the goal of the points system is to sort guilds by ability and strength and to provide a mechanism for advancement or demotion based on continued performance, then the disparity between number of points awarded versus the numbers of points in a league (diamond is 100 points wide) is a problem.



There are several items and way to address the disparity between the points awarded and the number of points per league. First, note that each league is does not have the same number of points but the points awarded for the finishing positions are the same. Second, with the number of points in the league and the number of points awarded, it is possible to go from godl to diamond in two seasons. This success does not indicate the guild is ready or able to perform at that level. Only the guild was lucky to finish first two seasons in a row. This points systems (points per position and points per league) does not relate or indicate a guilds strength in battlegrounds or the guilds ability to participate competitively in a new league. It inidicates only if they had a lucky season or if they were outmatched. There are a few groups in FoE that find this system 'acceptible', those guilds in diamond 1 that can bully themselves into the top stops to stay in diamond 1, the guilds at the bottom that do not care about battlegrounds, and those that in the bottom that have yet to figure out how to battlegrounds works. This statement is not made from idle conjecture. I purposely went 'walk-about' through several dozen guilds that span all the leagues to see first hand how they approach the battleground leagues and what they think of their ability to advance.

 

[Lorendar]

In a nutshell, GBG is broken based on the fact that it isn't a battleground but a farmland for highly active larger member guilds hunting for the battle rewards. This week, my 8 member guild is competing in DL against 5 guilds that are in the top 10 overall rankings. Our place on the grid offers 1 sector with 1 building slot next to us, so we start with that disadvantage. In the first 14 hours, 4 of those guilds had taken turns sweeping across the map to take 1st,2nd and 3rd level tiers. I literally watched as one guild took a sector in 30 seconds at start of combat. I told my guild to just not worry and fight battles, we got screwed this week and wait til next season. The big guilds have the coiners and that's whom Inno is wanting to appease.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

What makes you think Inno didn't want the map to be able to be turned over quickly? 4 hour lockdowns sure seem to imply they want those sectors to change hands. Your mistake is in thinking that they want to make it so that all guilds can compete at the top level without having to work for it. You have 8 members. You can't really think that your 8 member guild should be able to complete against a much larger guild that pushes GBG?

No matter the system they set up to award rank points it's going to be imprecise. Pretty sure Inno decided that given that the seasons are so short it really doesn't matter if any particularly guild can't have a good run for any individual season or two and they went with a relatively simply and easy to understand system to determine what league you end up in.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

You can't really think that your 8 member guild should be able to complete against a much larger guild that pushes GBG?

Therein lies my point. How did a 8 person guild advance to diamond league? (I know, the same way our guild is in diamond; a good season or two in 1st place)
Does an 8 person guild have the firepower or strength to be competitive? My guild has 58 members and we are still not competitive. The total of the top 5 in each of the guilds on the map:
1. 1993M
2. 671M
3. 293M
4. 60M
5. 295M
6. 1254M
7. 561M

I am the first to support that these numbers do not accurately reflect the strength of a guild nor their ability in GBG. For lack of anything else to use, this is what we have. So guess which is my guild? I'll give a hint, we are the one that is 20% of the 5/6th ranked guilds (tie at about 295M). What the heck are we doing in diamond 1? There is no way we should be here. We have not had the string of success or guild strength built up in order to succeed.

Pretty sure Inno decided that given that the seasons are so short it really doesn't matter if any particularly guild can't have a good run for any individual season or two and they went with a relatively simply and easy to understand system to determine what league you end up in.

The flip side of that statement is that Inno also decided they should totally demoralize guilds and members such that players want nothing to do with GBG because they cannot be competitive. I did not say win, I said competitive. Who purposely enters a competition they have no chance in being competitive or thinking they have a chance of winning?
Today we fought to the best of our ability. Expended goods and effort from the members and treasury and at this time are actaully further behind that where we were 12 hours also. We are in 7th place with no ability or hope to hold enough ground to not finish in 7th. That also means there are now 58 members that are guaranteed to not buy/spend a single diamond for the next 8 days in GBG.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

And? Any competition means that there will be winners and losers that is pretty much required for it to be a competition. If there's nothing to win then there's nothing to strive for so why bother? Except the thing is you don't need to win a season to gain rewards from the system in place. In fact the ability to win individual rewards is essentially what you are complaining about since that is what makes it worth the more dominant guilds to spend their time and energy on GBG. Your members can still gain some benefit just not as much as when they are the dominant group like when they are in the lower leagues. As for whether or not you spend diamonds on it that's Inno's problem but given that they haven't (as far as I know) even introduced tweaks to GBG on beta yet I don't think they are disturbed by the amount of diamonds that GBG is generating.

I doubt Inno factored in the morale issue for guilds because they no doubt decided that was (quite properly) a guild problem. Keeping your guild motivated is on the leadership (and yes my guild is currently 5th and it doesn't seem likely that we'll break past that point this season and our membership isn't participating as much) just as keeping my guild motivated is on the our guild's leadership.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[Algona]

Folks complaining their competition isn't good enough, folk complaining their competition is too tough.

Both can easily be managed with a bit of foresight or diplomacy.

Neither is a problem with GBG, both are problems of player expectations not in line with the game as is.

The flip side of that statement is that Inno also decided they should totally demoralize guilds and members such that players want nothing to do with GBG because they cannot be competitive.

Who is demoralized? I've been in three Guild that bounced between Platinum and Diamond. No demoralization. We get whupped we dust ourselves off and go at it again.

Maybe I've been lucky in those Guilds?

Review of the top 200 Guilds in each of my three worlds shows most are active in GBG.

A lot of people are playing GBG, a lot of Guild playing GBG have room for folk who want to play GBG. Those Guild's don't seem to be demoralized.

As noted above: It ain't INNO's job to make sure a Guild has good morale, it's Guild Leadership's job.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

A flip side to wanting to change GbG is for the person who is unhappy with How their Guild functions in GbG to change Guilds. Leave the Guild you are unable to do well in and join one that can do well playing GbG.
IMO all the top Guilds are top Guilds because people who want to win left lesser Guilds to go to Guilds that perform better in GbG and/or GvG. I have move up repeatedly to better Guilds as my skills improved. Better 1.9 better play, better friendships, better help. I can finally say I may be able to settle in.
Sticking to a Guild out of loyalty even if it is not managing well.? Professional athletes move up. they do not join the local team and say "gee we are not able to compete with the top pro team.. so the rule should be changed" ??? NO they move to a team that can win. Naturally that is if they are actually good enough to win too.

An aside: Every Guild is different. Different attitude, different kind of people, different way they work together. Finding a great Guild is a challenge. and worth searching for. Like a sports team, sometimes a person just is not a good fit. but that mismatch may have nothing to do with their innate skills, just not the same sort of vibe/attitude as the Guild. So do not give up, get out there and look around. When you find a Guild you really connect with you will be happy.

Thank you for this response. It really helps outline the problem with GBG. You appear to be looking at a single player that performs at a particular level instead all the players that perform at different levels.
All of the players that want to compete and do well can fit in to the few teams that are equally competitive. With that professional sports, as did Inno, created leagues. With that the second half of the openeing statement is addressed and players of different calibers can find a matching guild.
Professional sports have their equivalent of diamond, platinum, gold, silver, and copper. The issue at point is the fact there is not a single professional 'platinum' team scheduled to play against a 'diamond' team. If you are in to MLB, at no time in the Major League Baseball season is a major league team scheduled to play a AAA team. In FIA, at no time is a current go-kart driver scheduled to drive a F1 car. Yet Inno schedules these games. At no time is the most winning high school football team pitted against an NFL team, just because the high school team won a lot of games. Yet, Inno does.
So there is the problem with the league system, or more specifically with the math and method behind advancing from league to league.

Both can easily be managed with a bit of foresight or diplomacy.

Diplomacy = Alliances = The root of the other problem

Who is demoralized? I've been in three Guild that bounced between Platinum and Diamond. No demoralization. We get whupped we dust ourselves off and go at it again.

Maybe I've been lucky in those Guilds?

As noted above: It ain't INNO's job to make sure a Guild has good morale, it's Guild Leadership's job.

How would motivate a high school football team to compete to win against a professional (paid pro-athlete) team? Beyond the who-rah of being there you know you are going to lose. If the trip took 11 days to complete would you still go? Would you still be motivated? I think not.

You have also agreed that platinum level guilds advance to diamond, have little to no chance to compete and "get whupped". As I have said many times, I am not advocating the system be updated such that anyone guild will win but updated such that any guild selected (one problem) can win (both against guilds of equal strength and without the other guilds teaming against one or a few guilds).

With that said the two questions at the top of the list are:
1. How to stop the alliances from forming in GBG to make it a true open battle ground.
2. How to better define the leagues or the members of the leagues, including the mechanism of promotion and demotion between the leagues.

 

[ChandraguptaM]

A few things can be done to make things more balanced.
1. Remove Seige Camps/Traps - Seige Camps highly skew the balance. If a guild is more powerful more than with the help of camps their strength is compunded many times more.Without it even the big hitters have to stop at some point.
2. Limit the number of rewards a person can get from a tile. After all can one mine diamonds/gold/metals to an unlimited level from a piece of land? Obviously it has to be at a person level not at a guild level so that smaller players in a guild are not disadvantaged.


This will reduce swaps as there will not be too much benefit in maintaining the swap and they will need to move to other territories while ignoring the emptied ones. There is a drawback to the above but also a solution. How to burn the goods for inno and how to keep top players interested to continue to hit? A feauture where through goods they can increase the % back up once it reaches below a certain level. This way they will continue to burn goods, get rewards for fighting and have some control on overwhelming the others through attrition. Sure there can be improvements but this is atleast a more nuanced and balanced way than the lazy game mechanics that is present now.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[Just An Observer]

There used to be MLB-AAA matchups. The MLB team would pay an annual; visit to their AAA farm team and this would be a nice attendance boost for the AAA team. The Portland Beavers were the farm club of the Minnesota Twins. It was pretty cool to get a taste of MLB in the Rose City!