Where are you on the political spectrum?

[DeletedUser]

And I never suggested giving up as a viable alternative for anyone. I'm saying that while my perimeters happen to be able to sustain me, not everyone has friends or family that can afford to take care of them. I am taking handouts from my parents. Not everyone can do that. If my parents could not afford my medicine, I would be dead by now, because I would have no other way to get medicine. And that is exactly the problem. When someone has no other way to get what they need, I feel the government should step in.

Please don't just say I'd have another way if I thought about it really hard or something. If I did have another way, I would have found it by now, since I am in no way content with my situation and have never stopped looking for a way to improve it... while living entirely on someone else's dime.

If I could not live on someone else's dime, I could not look for a way to improve my situation. Because I wouldn't be living, and/or would be too busy being mad with pure, literally uncontrollable despair in my brain's attempt to destroy me.

I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, the only person that can only function at all with a great deal of assistance. And there are people out there that have no source of assistance and I can't help thinking that is seriously not cool. And I am not willing to leave these people to rot because of the possibility that someone will take inappropriate advantage of that assistance. Will it happen? Sure. But which is more important, making sure you're never taken advantage of, or countless lives?

EDIT: Also, as I said before, not everyone has churches or local communities can both afford to take care of them and are willing to, and I honestly have no idea why you think otherwise. Even if poor people didn't tend to live around other poor people--hard to pool resources without, you know, resources--in case you hadn't noticed, a lot of people are not very nice. A lot. Which is why I think the greater community that is the country, that includes the uber wealthy, should pitch in a little. By law, because you know there's plenty of people that would not spend a penny on anyone other than themselves and they should not be exempt by virtue of being jerks.

 

[DeletedUser34]

you know, hell once asked me off the record my true stance on assistance, and I am all for it, to those who absolutely need it. Problem is, more who get it don't really need it. The whole system needs reworking. To be perfectly honest, butterfly, if you are as badly off as my friend Tony, by all means I am for helping you. Not a hand out exactly, but assistance. My beef is there is an abuse of the system that drains tax payers more so than is needed. Fix it so that those who need it get it, but those who are just down on their luck, don't give them a hand out...give them assistance and a benefit for getting off...and that can only be done with any amount of accuracy if it is handled locally where dynamics are understood. Would I be willing to cut everyone off? Yes, because I believe that for those who truly need it, the locals should provide what is needed. Who better to know what is able to be offered locally than a local? Who better to help with housing but a local? Who better to collect food than a local. so to restate....I am not against assistance, I am against federal handouts.

I would also like to add, I also choose my living arrangement so that I have more spare money. Out of that money straight off the top is that which I give to service of the needy. It is my tithe if you will, and before anything, 10% of my money goes right back into the community. If everyone who could did that locally, there is no reason we can't make it work. My church, once a month 800 strong goes out into the community to do labor, paint, fix air, fix stairs whatever needs done. Once a month we have a family car care day where if you can't afford to maintenance your car, you come, we do it for free. Casselberry is on the news all the time for hungry children....national news. We have a penny drive that is not part of any tithes and offerings, that goes straight back into the community. Last month they saved 37K plus minus a few......There is no excuse for those who can not to help, but it should be done locally. It is easier to catch those taking advantage of the system if it is done that way. Now florida doesn't even require an interview with a live person anymore. A person can literally roll up in a benz and collect their benefits. Where as a person like Butterfly and or tony really need it. It is just wrong.

FYI, our church doesn't demand you attend our church or even claim religion to participate and receive our services....it is our duty to help our community. So nobody can fly the religion card on this one.

I should add, I about crapped me drawers when I found out my pastor was not only a democrat, but in tight with Obama as in on a first name basis.....so it isn't a "party" issue, but a social one.

 

[DeletedUser]

Problem is, more who get it don't really need it.

Cite this. And as I said, I'd rather risk giving money to people that don't strictly need it (but are still very likely disadvantaged) than leave anyone out cold. But that's a matter of opinion... and it relies partially on how often I think the former even happens, and you seem to think it happens a lot more than I think it does. I'd really like you to tell me where exactly you got this idea, and people you know personally are not a representative sample, however relevant they may be. I'm talking large-scale studies.

I never meant that you were one of the selfish people and I apologize if I came across that way; it was not my intent.

I don't remember playing the religion card? I'm saying not everyone has access to the same resources, such as your church and others like it. And as I said, communities can't always afford to help as much as is needed, even if they want to, even if they'd do it in a heartbeat if they could. Which is why I think we should extend the responsibility to communities that are definitely not struggling, i.e. rich people. Hence my preference for federal over local.

EDIT: I also apologize for preemptively accusing you of being ignorant about mental illnesses. It was totally uncalled for and inappropriate. I get it so much that I genuinely come to expect it... I've gotten it from people whose job it is to help, like my middle school counselor. Ugh, that woman. Not going to get started but you can probably guess.

 

[DeletedUser34]

I am not going to cite that, it is based off of working in the nuts and bolts volunteering out there and seeing who gets what. And I disagree that nobody has the resources. I get that they don't, but that is shame on religion. In the city where I am currently in, there are no less than five churches with mega members...many of them are very wealthy. I have gone nose to nose with all the preachers in this area. I can spout the bible regarding serving your brethren like nobody's business. And if a church isn't willing to do its part shame on them. It isn't about who believes what. It isn't about rules and regulations, it is about love. And any community whose church lacks on that well shame on them...period end of story. I wasn't directing the church comment to you specifically, it was more a warning to anyone reading the thread thinking they are going to stick their nickel in. Truth is, every church can help out...they get 10% of income, and if they would reevaluate their focus, there is no reason whatsoever, they couldn't put a dent into the issues of society. I don't just mean christian churches either....JW's, LDS, you name it....all of them have the same basic absolute about serving their community through service. We are to care for the sick and needy. Period. PERIOD.

Now, I have absolute opinions on government, but I do recognize the need. I just think the way to solve it is differently than everyone else. I feel the government has made a muddle mess of poo out of most of the crap they have undertaken. I mean look at the healthcare bill. It isn't a bad idea, yet government sucked the smart out of it...no matter who is at fault, it is what happened. People who can need not take the easy way out, and learn that with sacrifice comes reward, and if you don't want sacrifice, I am not sharing my reward. I will help you as long as you help yourself, but understand it is not an entitlement, it is out of the goodness of mankind to see you do better, not because it is owed to you. (I use you as a general term)

I'd also like to add, rich people aren't the problem....loopholes are. Raising taxes without closing the loopholes is a moot point.

And FYI, I have thick skin, I also give as good as I get, no offense taken.

There is only one person whom I hate with a passion, and it takes me about 3 days to figure out when he is around. You are not him

 

[DeletedUser]

I am not going to cite that, it is based off of working in the nuts and bolts volunteering out there and seeing who gets what.

That's what I mean. I don't doubt your experiences but they don't represent everyone's experience. It's not a matter of nobody having resources, it's a matter of some people not having resources.

I'm afraid I don't have much to say on the responsibility of religious institutions, but I can see where you're coming from. When people start saying all religion is always bad, look at all the problems it causes, I tend to remind them that it's religious institutions that have historically taken care of the sick and the poor, the religious institutions that organize charity, and religious beliefs that sometimes discourage bad people from doing bad things. (If bad people use religion as an excuse to do bad things, that's on them, not the religion.) I just don't see why the government can't fill that role instead, but once again that is opinion, and I don't think either of us is going to change our mind on it.

It's really hard for me to imagine someone not trying, I guess. Intellectually I'm aware that it must happen, but I have to really make an effort to do much of anything. Living is trying; the only way to stop trying would be to stop living. But I guess I'm not immune to making irrational assumptions that everyone is the way I am, whoops. I didn't even realize until now that part of me still thinks everyone tries like I do. I tend to get defensive about that sort of thing, though, because I get people telling me I'm not trying when they have no way of knowing. When I stayed home sick from school, I'd have friends playfully accuse me of skipping, and I'd get so mad and tell them off--I am sick, you [censored][censored][censored]. It never occurred to me to skip because I just couldn't afford to; the very idea was bizarre. If you don't feel horrible during the school day, you go to school. I guess it's also hard for me to picture people "skipping" in adult life. I can intellectually acknowledge the possibility, but I can't relate. My subconscious is convinced I am a representative sample.

 

[DeletedUser34]

That's what I mean. I don't doubt your experiences but they don't represent everyone's experience. It's not a matter of nobody having resources, it's a matter of some people not having resources.

I'm afraid I don't have much to say on the responsibility of religious institutions, but I can see where you're coming from. When people start saying all religion is always bad, look at all the problems it causes, I tend to remind them that it's religious institutions that have historically taken care of the sick and the poor, the religious institutions that organize charity, and religious beliefs that sometimes discourage bad people from doing bad things. (If bad people use religion as an excuse to do bad things, that's on them, not the religion.) I just don't see why the government can't fill that role instead, but once again that is opinion, and I don't think either of us is going to change our mind on it.

It's really hard for me to imagine someone not trying, I guess. Intellectually I'm aware that it must happen, but I have to really make an effort to do much of anything. Living is trying; the only way to stop trying would be to stop living. But I guess I'm not immune to making irrational assumptions that everyone is the way I am, whoops. I didn't even realize until now that part of me still thinks everyone tries like I do. I tend to get defensive about that sort of thing, though, because I get people telling me I'm not trying when they have no way of knowing. When I stayed home sick from school, I'd have friends playfully accuse me of skipping, and I'd get so mad and tell them off--I am sick, you [censored][censored][censored]. It never occurred to me to skip because I just couldn't afford to; the very idea was bizarre. If you don't feel horrible during the school day, you go to school. I guess it's also hard for me to picture people "skipping" in adult life. I can intellectually acknowledge the possibility, but I can't relate. My subconscious is convinced I am a representative sample.

I am going to assume based on things you have said that you are younger...Tony is 36. Comparing my view towards him, and others like his is vastly different than someone still young and in school. Your view, your life, your experiences are all based in a mind that is not only still developing but disabled. I would never dream to tell some kid, no offense, I am 40, the sky is blue and if you can't see it, you are not trying. There in lies much of the differences in the way I view things. I have seen the darker side of society more times than I wish to, including DAMMIT this evening, which is why I am still up at this ungodly hour. Probably more than the average person with the exception of military and/or Emergency workers. A lot of my views are just that. I argue on here for three reasons:

• Being obstinate keeps this forum from being boring
• It makes me think about my views, and either cements them, or causes me to re-evaluate them. Believe it or not, debating on Grepolis HAS changed a view or two of mine, on some rather large topics.....example, one being homosexuality, two being the definition of marriage. (let it be noted, NOT together)
• I am a Hellstromm groupie. (although I hear from diggo more often these days)

Back on topic though, I realize there is no ONE right way. But there HAS to be a compromise. And while I have a different view of how it should be done, I am not against everything different from my way. I simply won't give up on principle, even if I am willing to compromise. Dr. Joel Hunter once said, and it reworked how I thought about politics. He was on a panel with Muslims, Hillary Clinton, and a few other religions of the world, as well as political players. And the deal was, to think how christianity and islam can work together, but still remain true to their values. Why? Because if you don't give an inch, you will never reach a mile.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm 23, and I was always precocious so I might have developed a mite earlier than most. Also, a genius. Either my mind is about done maturing or it will very soon. I'm in college. Notice the past tense up there, heh.

It's an emotional disorder and only effects my reasoning when I'm unable to put the emotions aside, which is a skill I've been developing out of necessity since I was very young. A big thing that's kept me from suicide is the fact that since that one time when I was ten (and I did not have a full capacity for logic), I have never been so irrational as to forget how much it would hurt my family, which is apparently pretty rare for suicidal people. Anyway, a teenager's capacity for logic is the same as that of an adult--it's the impulse restraint, emotional control, and decision making that suffers. As long they don't have an emotional stake in it, their reasoning is approximately that of their adult self.

So my mind is an adult's, or very close to it, but I do have something of a deficiency in the experience department. And I will likely continue to, seeing as I don't leave the house much and will be living with my parents indefinitely. But any faith in humanity I have left is purely emotional, and I tend to toss emotional reasoning out the window the minute I detect it. And I have gotten very good at detecting it as a matter of necessity. (Since my emotions aren't healthy, the reasoning is often garbage, so. Cold, hard logic for me, thanks.)

No doubt that if I end up becoming a clinical psychologist like I plan to and get more person experience, that emotional faith will go out the window on its own.

"What do you mean, you just stopped taking your medicine all of a sudden without talking to your psychiatrist? Why did that seem like a good idea?"

So is it safe to say you'd be okay with more government assistance if they made a better system that cannot be easily exploited? Because I'm cool with that.

 

[DeletedUser34]

LOL....I have a daughter your age, ergo, you are a kid
and developing experiences, not minds
and call it what you will it is a disability which clouds your view in many areas as you have so pointed out....right wrong or indifferent. It is what it is...no offense meant.

 

[DeletedUser]

No, I get it. I just don't think it clouds my mind any more than anyone else's, just in different areas. Everyone's view of the world is tinted by their own experiences.

 

[DeletedUser34]

ok, well that brings back an old discussion then, either you are disabled or you are simply the same cloudy as everyone....which is it? if you are not any more cloudy than say me....how can you claim the right to welfare? Based on a disablity? I am a pill and a half, but my mind is not clouded....ergo, you are one or the other....which is it?

 

[DeletedUser]

...I explicitly explained the effects of my condition. You know your brain controls freaking everything, not just your thoughts, right? Did you somehow miss the part about the lack of energy, the constant pain, the sleeplessness, the nausea? And even if you only look at the emotional aspect, were you somehow unaware that abject misery, be it rational or irrational, makes life really freaking difficult all by itself?

This is a false dichotomy. It sounds like you have little to no understanding of depression disorder or what the brain even does.

 

[DeletedUser34]

nooooooo nooooo, you don't get to claim it one second and dismiss it the next. Tsk Tsk........Don't make me go and copy and paste all your arguments...and your changes.....Either you are, or you are not. You believe in welfare because you are incapable, and then in a different sentence you say you are just like me.....contradiction here?

Either you are part of the crowd than can work it out (no welfare) or you are not (assistance).

 

[DeletedUser]

I never claimed my mind was clouded except at my very worst moments. Noooo noooo you don't get to say I said things I never said, except you do anyway, constantly.

There is no contradiction. I have a serious disorder. I explained what the disorder does to me. You seem to think it does something completely different. I denied that it did this and now you are ignoring what I actually said in favor of, I don't even know, some pre-conceived notion of mental illness that I never confirmed.

I do not believe in welfare because I am a part of a crowd that would need it (under different circumstances as I have repeatedly stated). I think people that people that need assistance should get it for the same reason you think people that need assistance should get it.

What I did say is that my perception of others is influenced by my own experience, just like everyone else's perception of others is influenced by their own experience. This influence has absolutely nothing to do with an emotional disorder, oh my God where did you even get that.

You were making so much sense yesterday and now you're incoherent. Are you okay? You said you stayed up really late; perhaps you're half asleep right now?

EDIT: To clarify the second to last paragraph, the experience I was citing was being in possession of a disorder. My perception is influenced by the experience of having a disorder in the same way that your perception is influenced by the experience of not having that disorder.

Also my "changes" are additions and are clearly marked, and usually added before you reply. The only reason you would bring them up is if you were trying to color my argument as inconsistent when in reality, it has not changed one bit. Of course, you don't seem terribly inclined to bother with the reality of what I say, instead favoring words you put in my mouth that I continually deny.

 

[DeletedUser3]

Well, this was a fun thread, but it has gone way off topic and now it's dead. To prevent it going further off topic, I am closing this thread. In the future, everyone please remain on topic, or at least as close to on topic as is reasonably possible based on the original post's premise.