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Which do you support most and why? (Select 1 or more)

Discussion in 'Debate Hall' started by Lucifer1904, Feb 14, 2017.

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  1. DreadfulCadillac

    DreadfulCadillac Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2018
    so im under 18 years old, and technically under some states its legal to own a shotgun?(for under 18 y olds) HELL YEAH:)
    i wish they still had that old fashioned type of milita that they did back during the war of 1812 and revelutionary war and such, cause id join it.
     
  2. BlackSand the Sly

    BlackSand the Sly Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2018
    Furthermore ... You are correct about willful ignorance defeating an argument, but the gaping holes in your argument are probably how the somewhat obvious realities manage to consistently escape you.

    There is one thing your argument offers that is inescapable ... The simple fact that to achieve your desires you would have to get me to relinquish my liberties and freedom. You have nothing you can provide for in exchange for that simple desire ... You have nothing to negotiate with.

    You cannot ensure mass shootings won’t occur. You cannot protect me from threats I can very well protect myself against. You fail to realize that every “power” on the face of this Earth is armed.

    On the other hand I offer you opportunities to investigate how you can better achieve your objectives ... You don’t need to argue with me, you need to put up or shut up.
     
  3. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    While my opinions are well informed, they are indeed irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is, what does the Word say? If anyone's opinion is in clear violation to the clear text in the original language, then we are in error and our opinion needs to change. Let God be true and every man a liar. I'm willing to go there, are you?
    No, I won't assume your stated position, I'll you you state your positions. Based on what you've said and or hinted at, I question several of your beliefs and whether they are consistent with the clear written Word. I will not bother to go back and look at your previous ramblings, because moving forward, they're not relevant, nor are my past screeds. This is your chance to state your beliefs clearly and unequivocally, if you dare. No hee, no haw, just let your yes be yes and your no be no.

    Do you support abortion in any way shape or form? Do you believe that the redemptive work of Jesus Christ is the only means of Salvation? Do you believe in absolute justice and that no matter who breaks the law, they should stand for their crimes and if guilty, be held accountable? Do you believe that those found guilty in the Judgement will spend eternity in hell forever separated from God?
    Actually, I am, but it seems you've missed my point. To be clear, all of that is meaningless to me. However, it does indicate you might actually be prepared to have a discussion like this. Whether or not you can is still suspect for me. So if you're committed to lifelong learning about scripture as am I, let's learn together.
    That is exactly why I mention them AND included the Pope. They are all 'experts' of 'renown' who speak with 'authority' in the eyes of the world, when in fact they are all charlatans of the first order, cut from same cloth.
    If you believe what the Bible has to say is irrelevant to the main topic, or ANY topic, or that examining what the Word has to say on a topic is a 'rabbit trail', I'm inclined to include you in the list of dignitaries above. 'Expert' that you claim to be, you should know better than most that each of the Rights found in the Bill of Rights as stated by the men who wrote the document are Rights believed to be derived from God that supersede any Gov't law and/or entity. What part of "Congress shall make no law" is unclear to you? Which brings us back to this little nugget.
    The militias that were formed to overthrow the British Government were organized civilian groups unrelated to any civil entity. The civil entity was the British Government the militias sought to overthrow. They were formed to protect and enforce the radical view that men are free people and have both the right and the duty to overthrow any Government that oppresses them and fails to address their grievances. You'd know that if you'd bother to read what the authors of the document themselves actually has to say about the document they wrote. But you won't read them, they might interfere with your opinion. When you won't even consider those, you have no interest in the Truth. Lie to yourself if you must, but I'm not buying it. Just one big reason why I don't think you're up for an honest debate on this or any other topic. This is the very definition of uninformed opinion and a closed mind.

    I should also not have to tell you, Mr. Bible Expert, about the worldwide Satanic plot afoot whose ultimate goal is to enslave humanity under a one world government, exterminate all worship of the One True God, YHWH, and replace it with a false worldwide religion led by a man literally possessed by Satan. You don't see that this constant cycle of false flag murder, call for gun control, false flag murder, call for gun control carousel we're stuck on is part of the plan? Why do you think I keep telling you to WAKE UP! Take the blinders off Stephen. Just as Scripture says, we are in a spiritual war with real people who want to do the followers of Christ real harm and will do so by any means necessary. Our death is their sacrifice to their false gods. While I'm perfectly prepared to die for my faith, don't you dare tell me I can't defend myself in the process without supporting it from Scripture.

    If you can't or won't have this debate, stop claiming to know stuff. If you can't support your beliefs with chapter and verse, your beliefs are wrong. Full stop.
     
    BlackSand the Sly likes this.
  4. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    It does not need to be changed, it just needs to be interpreted correctly and not at the direction of the NRA. Which means that the rest of your arguments are moot because they depend on the currently used misinterpretation.
     
  5. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    And if they did and you did, then AND ONLY THEN would you have a Constitutional right to bear (not bare) arms.
    I try to "achieve my objectives" (strange way to characterize wanting the gun violence to stop, but whatever) by refusing to vote for candidates endorsed by the NRA or who support unfettered gun ownership. And I've been "putting up" that practice for decades.
    I'm already there and have been there for a long, long time.
    Only if the mother's physical life is in grave danger.
    Wholeheartedly.
    Absolutely. Even if they're the President of the United States.
    Again, wholeheartedly.
    Well, then, we at least agree on something.
    That is not what I said and you know it.
    Also not what I said.
    That is both a misstatement and oversimplification of the military realities of that time. They were most certainly related to civil entities, as every colony had their own local government, not to mention the Continental Congress.
    I also know that this poses no threat to me, because I do not fear the one who can harm the body but not touch my soul.
    So that's your spin on innocent people getting gunned down in schools, churches, theaters, malls, concerts, etc.? Pathetic.
    No, that is absolutely not what Scripture says. Here, let me refresh your memory.
    "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 6:12-13
    Notice how it says NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD?
    From the Sermon on the Mount, one of the most famous sections of Scripture:
    "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." Matthew 5:39
    And later:
    " 'Put your sword back in its place,' Jesus said to him, 'for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.' " Matthew 26:52
    Apparently I can. And all the "rabbit trail" stuff about the Tribulation period is irrelevant to this discussion. That's what I said, not that all of Scripture was irrelevant to it.
     
    Praetorius and UBERhelp1 like this.
  6. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    For the record, @RazorbackPirate, I believe that you are an honest and sincere Christian. But there's no way on God's green Earth that Scripture can be twisted to support unfettered access to guns. You may not believe it speaks against it, but you can't deny that the Bible decries violence, even in the face of persecution.
     
  7. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Indeed.

    As far as the topic of what kills people, it'd be both people and guns. There's only one purpose for creating a gun and that's death. Without guns it'd be a lot harder to kill people so by having guns instead of one person dead you could have a whole room of dead people.

    Whether or not a person should have access to a gun is another matter altogether. The device can be used responsibly for a productive purpose like managing livestock or having protection in the case of attack. But that doesn't mean every person needs a gun or constant access to a gun.
     
    Stephen Longshanks likes this.
  8. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    I won't pass judgement on your salvation, that's not my call to make. I do believe you might be sincere in your beliefs as wrong as I believe they are. No matter, I don't think you're an honest man. You continue with the Militia canard without reading the Federalist Papers, and you continue to use the NRA 'current understanding' straw man argument and you won't read the Federalist Papers. You have no interest in the Truth, you want what you want. You don't care about the law, which means you don't care about justice. You don't want to change the amendment, you don't want to clarify the amendment, you don't want to repeal the amendment, you don't care one whit about the Truth. You like the current supposed 'ambiguity.' So you can argue for what you want.

    You say you support the right to an abortion only if the woman's life is in grave danger. Then how could you vote for a candidate who ran on a platform of late term abortion and followed through on her promise by championing and pushing the heinous New York State law? How can you vote for any candidate who receives financial support or endorsement from Planned Parenthood? How can you support and elect candidates who vote for continued use of taxpayer dollars to subsidize the wholesale slaughter of innocent lives? How can you reconcile this with your objections to the NRA when the NRA as an organization has never killed another human being, yet Planned Parenthood has actually killed tens of millions of babies according to their own documentation? Why are guns the problem and not the people pulling the trigger of the guns?

    Yes, that's my spin. With rare exception I think every mass shooting in the US in the last 20 years has been an operation perpetrated by forces within our own government. Did innocent people get gunned down, oh yes. Did they die, absolutely. Beyond that, lie after lie, after lie. All created to get you where you are today. "Whatever it takes, just take them away." Even if it violates my rights and the Constitution when they do so. That you don't see it when they tell you right to your face that is their agenda is pathetic.

    Why do I think that? Maybe because the last President in conjunction with the former Sec. State, former head of the FBI, CIA, NSA and multiple other assorted alphabet soup agencies and players ginned up a fake story to start illegal spying on the opposing campaigns? That they also engaged in spying on other mostly Republican politicians in order to get 'dirt' for leverage and manipulation? The same President, Sec. State who, along with Eric Holder thought it would be a good idea to send weapons to Mexican drug cartels that were documented used to kill Americans? The same President that used the power of the IRS to silence and intimidate conservative leaning non-profit groups?

    You say that you believe in justice. Now that the real crimes and who really committed real crimes are coming to light you also want trials to begin to get to the bottom of the matter and if that includes treason as the President says and all evidence indicates, you're fine with them hanging for it if found guilty? That work for you as it does me? You say you're up for Truth at any cost, are you really? I say no.


    "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 6:12-13

    Absolutely. In the context of putting on the Whole Armor of God. I see how you do, you've got a scripture to pull out of context for every occasion. Just like the Pharisees. And we wonder why the world won't believe. Let's look at the whole passage. That's called context.

    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak."

    What do we learn? The devil has wiles and we are to stand against them. Not lay down and surrender and pretend like they don't exist while we vote for them. You want to pull the verse out of context, how's this?

    It's also a reminder that no matter what, we cannot hate people doing these evil things, our fight is with the forces controlling them. That no matter what these people have done, we owe it to them to share the Gospel with them and that no matter what they've done, there is forgiveness in Jesus.

    But seriously. How deluded are you? You don't think people build the image of the beast? You don't think people write the AI software that will give it the ability to move and speak? You don't think people will build the chips and implants for the mark of the beast? You don't think they're already at work? You don't see the constant push to advance these technologies needed to fulfill prophecy and usher in the reign of the anti-christ? You don't think it will be people working for him who will be the one's enforcing his policies through war, starvation, and execution?

    You don't think people will organize and create the one world government spoken of throughout Scripture? The very same New World Order one world government ushered in by Poppy Bush? The same Poppy Bush who created Bill Clinton through his Clowns In America drug running operation thorough Mina, AK? Ever see the movie American Made with Tom Cruise? They tell us the story right there.

    The Bill Clinton accused by multiple women of actual rape that he escaped charges or a trail from? The same Bill Clinton whose accusers loving wife Hillary spearheaded a full media destruction campaign to completely destroy, ripping away any last dignity they had left? The same Bill Clinton who is documented friends with convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein? The same Bill Clinton who flew along with multiple accused pedophile Kevin Spacey to Epstein's private Caribbean island on multiple occasions without his Secret Service detail? The same Bill Clinton married to Hillary Clinton whose assistant, Huma Abedin also just happened to be married to a world class pervert by the name of Jeffrey Weiner who was convicted of sending pictures of his, you guessed it, wiener to underage girls? These are, self admittedly your peeps. "Nope, no evil to see here, move along." Really? Go Hillary, cause ... well she has a vagina and ... Trump!

    You don't think when people say they are satanists are really actually satanists? You don't think that when Christian Bale (made up name BTW - Christian Ba'al?) thanks satan for the inspiration to play the role of other well rumored satanist Dick Cheney, he didn't mean exactly and specifically that? You don't think that with names like that saying crap like that, they're openly mocking and laughing at folks like you who don't believe it when they tell you? You don't think people who say they worship Satan don't worship the way the publicly available documentation on satanic worship says they are to worship?

    You don't think it's people who work at abortion clinics and kill with no conscience? You don't think it's people who donate money to keep the slaughter going? You don't think they know they are sacrificing to Moloch? You don't think that when world leaders gather for the opening ceremony of the Gothard Tunnel in a ritual rife with occultic and satanic images that clearly tells us they're dedicating it all to satan that they are not doing just exactly that and it's all just art? You're going with that?

    You don't think people who do any of these things are enslaved in any way and might be working on a hidden agenda? You don't think it's people who are under the deception of the enemy out to destroy all of humanity in any way he can? You don't think it's people who will help ensure his plan comes to fruition just as foretold? It all sounds like a whole bunch of conspiracy theory to you? And you don't think you vote for and contend for evil? WAKE UP!!!

    You are also correct, Matthew 26:52 says, 'Put your sword back in its place,' Jesus said to him, 'for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.' Notice he did not say, give it away or let them take it.

    Regardless, your gross misuse of this scripture completely out of context underscores you're insincerity and is a prime example of why I do not think you're an honest man. Even the atheists know you can find a scripture to take out of context and play gotcha bingo to trip up the uninformed. Seems you're a master. So, are you really that uneducated about the Word you claim to know, or you know the game and aim to deceive? Are you honestly naive and uneducated about proper hermaneutics, or fully aware and fully dishonest? I'm not seeing a middle ground here.

    Why? I don't know, context? The meaning given the context? A love of Scripture and not wanting to bastardize it in front of an unbelieving world? An unbelieving world whose BS detector probably went off as strongly as mine did? How about we try Matthew 26 again, this time with a little context, shall we?

    First, for the uninitiated, this scene takes place in the Garden of Gethsemane, the place where Jesus and his disciples went to pray just after they concluded their celebration of the Passover, commonly known as the Last Supper, where Jesus revealed that one of the twelve would soon betray Him, the exact moment Leonardo Da Vinci illustrated in his famous fresco. Knowing the indescribably painful death He would soon suffer for the sake of humanity, Jesus prayed in the garden, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” vs 39 and “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” vs 42.

    Having finally steeled Himself for the torture and death He knew was about to endure for us, He woke his sleeping disciples saying, "Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.” Mathew 26:46

    Mathew 26:47 And while He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords and clubs, came from the chief priests and elders of the people. 48 Now His betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “Whomever I kiss, He is the One; seize Him.” 49 Immediately he went up to Jesus and said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed Him. 50 But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?” Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him. 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

    Notice that the full quote of Jesus' words encompass all of verse 52, all of verse 53, and all of verse 54. One complete thought, one complete reasoning, given the complete and only context and you're gonna cherry pick it like that? Is that how you teach? You call that proper exegesis? Seventy-two verses in a single chapter telling the story of one single unbroken sequence of events and you pull one little chunk of His 3 verse complete sentence out of context like that? Really? No. Not doing this with you.

    I see who you are, I see how you do and no. I do not believe you are an honest man.

    I'm also not interested in your BS single word, line by line rebuttals if you have a complete coherent thought, share it. If I'm misinterpreting your words, clarify them. Otherwise, you are now on full display and no one should believe a word you have to say on this or any other important or eternal topic.
     
  9. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    The purpose of the Second Amendment, according to the people who wrote it, is so we can defend ourselves and overthrow our own government if needed. Such are the rights and responsibilities of free men. When you give that up, you are no longer free. No way you can square that with your little screed above. But it's okay, you'll get your way. Not too much longer, I think.
     
  10. bridgetmcb

    bridgetmcb Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
    Is that a threat, or just letting us know you are willing and able to shoot your guns?
     
  11. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    This is conspiracy garbage of the worst kind. Pure unadulterated hogwash with no basis in reality. And it proves that you are unable to logically consider any rational information. We're done.
     
  12. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    I think they're saying the guns are going to be removed without them doing anything.
     
  13. bridgetmcb

    bridgetmcb Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
  14. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    Neither. In context, it means I believe gun control including full on confiscation of all firearms will soon be enacted here in the US. I believe those pushing for gun control will soon get what they want.
     
  15. BlackSand the Sly

    BlackSand the Sly Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2018
    In the State where I live, the militia were outnumbered so badly that when they whipped the living tar out of the British (333/2459 dead, wounded or missing) in a total of 45 minutes ... The remaining 5000 British troops still onboard in the harbor, fled.

    .
    You making stuff up doesn’t make my point moot. The US Constitution does not grant the Federal Government the power to infringe upon the People’s right to bare arms ... It specifically states the exact opposite and then explains how the People can govern what the Federal Government hasn’t been granted the authority to govern.

    Furthermore ... That ability to govern is not only reserved for the States, but for local governments should they choose, and the individual if they don’t.

    It’s not complicated and thoroughly defined in the Constitution. We aren’t interested in your misinterpretations, aren’t really swayed by the empty promises you attempt to negotiate with in return for relinquishing our freedoms, and aren’t necessarily concerned with the fact you are incapable of accomplishing your desires where you live.

    The only reason people want to violate the Constitution and make gun control a Federal issue ... Is because they have to attempt to leverage the opinions of people outside their immediate area to accomplish their goals. They want to empower the Federal Government over the People ... Which was never the intent of the Founding Fathers.

    .
     
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  16. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    That's right. So why do you ignore the first condition of the "right to bear (not bare, which is going sleeveless) arms"? A "well regulated militia". Not to mention "security of a free state". In other words (since you seem to not understand the clear language), a militia that is regulated, either by the Federal Government or individual states, which is "necessary" to the security of the free state, meaning the country as a whole, not individuals or states. It doesn't matter what individual or even small groups of the Founding Fathers say in other, non-binding documents, the clear language of what ALL the writers and ratifiers of the US Constitution agreed on states these two caveats to the "right to bear arms". The misinterpretation that you are espousing would only make sense if this was the entirety of the language: "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Unfortunately for you, and others like you, that is not all it says. Sad that so many cling to this misinterpretation at the cost of hundreds of innocent lives, many of them schoolchildren. And, by the way, I'm not trying to "negotiate" anything. You don't have the unfettered right under the clear language of the US Constitution, so I don't have to "promise" anything.
     
  17. BlackSand the Sly

    BlackSand the Sly Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2018
    Well ... If it helps any, I pretty much despise the NRA. I called them and told them to take me off any mailing list they may have.

    I also have no more affection for the Republicans than the Democrats, and don’t much care what you want from the candidates you send to the Beltway. In fact, as far as I am concerned they could have left the Federal Government shut down.

    As a Classic Liberal, with Libertarian, and Constructionist (often referred to a Originalists nowadays) leaning. I am a firm believer in “doing what you can, where you are, with what you have”.

    Add the fact the last decent Conservative in Washington DC was President Calvin Coolidge. I cracked up when I read about his actions after being sworn in as President ... He went back to bed.

    .
     
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  18. BlackSand the Sly

    BlackSand the Sly Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2018
    That’s just it silly ... It’s not unfortunate for me, I have firearms, the US Constitution protects my rights to bear arms ... And you are the person trying to change that with opinion, words and empty promises.

    Smell the coffee ... :)

    .
     
  19. Shy Pete

    Shy Pete Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2019
    Religious fanatics like you are exactly the reason why the world is a messed up place. I did not specifically choose Jesus in my quip. I just looked for an image that conveyed my opinion on the matter. Plain and simple. I can't imagine what life would be like for someone who needs to pounce on innocent (perhaps tongue in cheek) comments in order to further their often misguided agenda.
     
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  20. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    My apologies, but in the future, maybe treat it that same as the offense you might cause putting up a photo of a noose. Figured I'd bring it all current topic, Jussie Smollet and whatnot.

    Freedom, such a misguided concept. Certainly not something worth fighting over.
     
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