• We are looking for you!
    Always wanted to join our Supporting Team? We are looking for enthusiastic moderators!
    Take a look at our recruitement page for more information and how you can apply:
    Apply

Why do we have Proposal Guidelines?

DeletedUser31440

I thought it was to have set of rules about what we could propose and how they are meant to be proposed? I am apparently wrong, can someone help me understand their purpose?
 

ODragon

Well-Known Member
I feel like it was pointed out somewhere that the proposal guidelines were only for in game proposals and that there isnt one for how the forum is run.
 

DeletedUser31440

I feel like it was pointed out somewhere that the proposal guidelines were only for in game proposals and that there isnt one for how the forum is run.
According to the Proposal Guidelines the only proposals that are allowed are about the game. It specifically calls out that proposals can not be about the forum or support.
 

DeletedUser31440

I guess I dont understand your question then.
Why bother enfocing DNSL when ignoring the Proposal Guidelines? Why bother having Proposal Guidelines if they aren't enforced? Why encourage players to post proposals that are in violation of the Proposal Guidelines? Why place proposals up for voting when they violate the Proposal Guidelines?
 

Volodya

Well-Known Member
I'm not gonna lose any sleep if the guidelines are treated as guidelines rather than laws.
Me either. What does bother me is the way the dnsl is being used as a blunt instrument to shut down any discussion of topics deemed to be on the list, even when the question of whether something is or isn't on the list is the whole point of the discussion. The dnsl makes perfect sense as a tool to avoid wasting the developers' time with formal Proposals they won't consider anyway. I don't think it was ever intended to be a list of banned topics that can't even be discussed in someplace like Forge Hall. That's what we've been seeing lately though.
 

DeletedUser31440

Me either. What does bother me is the way the dnsl is being used as a blunt instrument to shut down any discussion of topics deemed to be on the list, even when the question of whether something is or isn't on the list is the whole point of the discussion. The dnsl makes perfect sense as a tool to avoid wasting the developers' time with formal Proposals they won't consider anyway. I don't think it was ever intended to be a list of banned topics that can't even be discussed in someplace like Forge Hall. That's what we've been seeing lately though.
My view, if it's in the Proposal section bringing up that it is DNSL is perfectly fine. If/when it gets moved to forge hall it should be a discussion on why it is DNSL, if it should be DNSL, and what other options exist to accomplish what is being proposed without violating DNSL.
 

Volodya

Well-Known Member
My view, if it's in the Proposal section bringing up that it is DNSL is perfectly fine. If/when it gets moved to forge hall it should be a discussion on why it is DNSL, if it should be DNSL, and what other options exist to accomplish what is being proposed without violating DNSL.
I agree. The problem is that those discussions aren't being moved from Proposals to Forge Hall. They're being closed altogether.
 

DeletedUser21322

Thank you for starting the thread here. This discussion is allowed here
 

Agent327

FOE Team
Forum Moderator
Me either. What does bother me is the way the dnsl is being used as a blunt instrument to shut down any discussion of topics deemed to be on the list, even when the question of whether something is or isn't on the list is the whole point of the discussion. The dnsl makes perfect sense as a tool to avoid wasting the developers' time with formal Proposals they won't consider anyway. I don't think it was ever intended to be a list of banned topics that can't even be discussed in someplace like Forge Hall. That's what we've been seeing lately though.
They can be discussed in Forge Hall. Problem is people keep starting them in Proposals.

I agree. The problem is that those discussions aren't being moved from Proposals to Forge Hall. They're being closed altogether.
Why shouldb't they be? As a proposal they are not allowed. If mods start moving everything what is keeping people from posting in whatever forum part they like? Nothing is preventing them to start it as a discussion in the right forum part after it has been closed.

Ozyman is a hypocrite. Now he has something to say about rules, but when he thinks he is funny he sees no problem to mess up the proposal forum.

https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/in-violation-of-the-prime-directive.23401/

And his opinion changes.

https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?posts/199466
 
Last edited:

Stephen Longshanks

Thank you for starting the thread here. This discussion is allowed here
I would like to hear your perspective on why proposals that are in direct conflict with the Proposal Guidelines are allowed to remain and even be put up for voting. Also would be interested in your perspective on why players are sometimes even encouraged by moderators to post such proposals. I mean, if there's a valid reason for ignoring the stated Proposal Guidelines, it would certainly ease our frustration to know what it is.
 

DeletedUser31440

@Agent327 you may not think this is an issue, I personally do, and I want to help get it changed. I have been going about it the wrong way for the past few days. I was extremely angry over the way this has been handled, both by me and others, and I should have been more restrained. Regardless though, the conversation is now happening the way it should be. Below is the scenario I would like to not be possible in the future:

Forum Member 1: Random comment about changing something on the forum
Mod: That's a great idea, you should make a proposal about it.
Forum Member 2: Sorry mod, but that's actually not allowed by the proposal guidelines.
Mod: Forum Member 1 you should make a proposal about it.
Forum Member 2: It's not allowed because of this, (insert Proposal Guidelines)
Forum Member 3: But Mod let them do this, even because of this
Mod: This thread is not shutdown do to moderator bashing.

So now Mod thinks Forum Members 2 & 3 are bashing them, when they are trying to help Mod as Mod doesn't seem to understand the rules they should follow. Mod understands the rules, but still is allowing the proposal. Forum Members 2 & 3 don't know why the rule isn't being followed, but they are now being accused of mod bashing for bringing it up. Meanwhile Forum Member 1 is trying to figure out what in the heck is going on here.
 

Agent327

FOE Team
Forum Moderator
@Agent327 you may not think this is an issue, I personally do, and I want to help get it changed. I have been going about it the wrong way for the past few days. I was extremely angry over the way this has been handled, both by me and others, and I should have been more restrained. Regardless though, the conversation is now happening the way it should be. Below is the scenario I would like to not be possible in the future:

Forum Member 1: Random comment about changing something on the forum
Mod: That's a great idea, you should make a proposal about it.
Forum Member 2: Sorry mod, but that's actually not allowed by the proposal guidelines.
Mod: Forum Member 1 you should make a proposal about it.
Forum Member 2: It's not allowed because of this, (insert Proposal Guidelines)
Forum Member 3: But Mod let them do this, even because of this
Mod: This thread is not shutdown do to moderator bashing.

So now Mod thinks Forum Members 2 & 3 are bashing them, when they are trying to help Mod as Mod doesn't seem to understand the rules they should follow. Mod understands the rules, but still is allowing the proposal. Forum Members 2 & 3 don't know why the rule isn't being followed, but they are now being accused of mod bashing for bringing it up. Meanwhile Forum Member 1 is trying to figure out what in the heck is going on here.
I am with you on that, but not with the way you went on about it.

I am all for rules and upholding them. Problem is that the mods are volunteers and let's be honest, they picked the wrong volunteers. That is not directed at their skills as a mod, but at the time they are willing or able to spend being a mod. They have no feel of the forum, pass by for maybe 15 minutes a day and then try to mod. That simply does not work and causes the example you used. It's not that the mods don't do a good job. They just miss to much cause they have to rush the job.
 

DeletedUser31440

I am with you on that, but not with the way you went on about it.

I am all for rules and upholding them. Problem is that the mods are volunteers and let's be honest, they picked the wrong volunteers. That is not directed at their skills as a mod, but at the time they are willing or able to spend being a mod. They have no feel of the forum, pass by for maybe 15 minutes a day and then try to mod. That simply does not work and causes the example you used. It's not that the mods don't do a good job. They just miss to much cause they have to rush the job.
Agree with you 100% on that.
 

Volodya

Well-Known Member
They can be discussed in Forge Hall. Problem is people keep starting them in Proposals.



Why shouldb't they be? As a proposal they are not allowed. If mods start moving everything what is keeping people from posting in whatever forum part they like? Nothing is preventing them to start it as a discussion in the right forum part after it has been closed.

Ozyman is a hypocrite. Now he has something to say about rules, but when he thinks he is funny he sees no problem to mess up the proposal forum.

https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/in-violation-of-the-prime-directive.23401/

And his opinion changes.

https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?posts/199466
The mods routinely move improperly formatted proposals from Proposals to Forge Hall. There is absolutely no reason according to the published rules of this forum for DNSL "violations" to be treated differently, but they are.
 

Graviton

Well-Known Member
Unless those complaining have volunteered to be mods I don't know why anybody should pay attention to any of this. You have time to start multiple threads about it, then you have to time to become a mod and implement your vision of what the forum could be.

EDIT: In fact this whole thing has inspired me to apply for a forum mod position.
 
Last edited:

DeletedUser31440

Unless those complaining have volunteered to be mods I don't know why anybody should pay attention to any of this. You have time to start multiple threads about it, then you have to time to become a mod and implement your vision of what the forum could be.
I have no desire to change the time I come on this forum for enjoyment into the type of tedious BS that mods have to deal with. I don't have the temperament to be a good mod, I know that and it would ruin the forum experience for me and quite few other people if I were a mod. What I can do is come to forums as a member, enjoy my time spent here, and try to help out where feasible. There is a disparity between what is written in the guidelines and what the moderators are doing, that creates a friction point, and it's completely unnecessary for it to be there. Why would I need to be a mod to bring that to light and try to get it fixed?

The way I have been going about bringing it to light has been over the top and unnecessary, but now that there is a clear way to move forward on it I'd prefer to do that.
 

Agent327

FOE Team
Forum Moderator
Unless those complaining have volunteered to be mods I don't know why anybody should pay attention to any of this. You have time to start multiple threads about it, then you have to time to become a mod and implement your vision of what the forum could be.

EDIT: In fact this whole thing has inspired me to apply for a forum mod position.
Good luck with that. I applied over two months ago. Still waiting for an answer.