Will Virgo Lose Her Virginity?

Algona

Well-Known Member
Tell me what I'm missing here. Assuming you get this to level 80 and get 5 chances a day at a little over 69% success rate, what would your best case scenario benefit be from PvP?
Ya gotta remetber that one of the motivations for rabid plunderers is that touch of sadism, and what better way to indulge that then breaking a 1600 defence?

so what if there is no way that you could ever pay off the GB with plunder? In this instance it's all about spreading grief.

NOTE WELL! I agree completely with INNO's decision., I just happen to understand the disappointment.
 

mamboking053

Well-Known Member
I don't get what the big deal is. Would having this ability for only 3-5 PvP battles really make a difference? I mean, the effect of this GB is impressive, but it is also so limited in daily uses that it hardly seems worthwhile to fret about where you can use it. Especially since so many players claim PvP isn't worth their time to begin with. Tell me what I'm missing here. Assuming you get this to level 80 and get 5 chances a day at a little over 69% success rate, what would your best case scenario benefit be from PvP? Keep in mind that it has taken 243,563 FP to level it that far. Even if you were able to plunder 5 Maharaja's Palaces a day because of it (which is highly unlikely), how long would it take for 25 FP and 25 goods a day to justify that effort? Even without the nerf, this is a luxury item GB at best.
And you only get one chance to attack a hoodie per day, so it's not like you can keep trying the same lucrative target five times in a row. Also, after dealing with the chance of getting the proc you have to contend with the idea that the highly developed player with a massive defense isn't active enough to have collected his goods on time. Even without the nerf, it doesn't really justify the effort unless there's something in GBG we haven't understood yet where this GB shines.
 

Agent327

FOE Team
Forum Moderator
Given that a LOT of players put a LOT of effort, time, cash,into building massive defenses, it;s hardly surprising that INNO did not want those players' efforts put to naught.

Can you imagine the reaction of the massive defense builders otherwise? I suspect that is one dookystorm INNO was pretty smart to avoid.
That massive defense already has a problem thanks to the AR Targeting.

I don't get what the big deal is. Would having this ability for only 3-5 PvP battles really make a difference? I mean, the effect of this GB is impressive, but it is also so limited in daily uses that it hardly seems worthwhile to fret about where you can use it. Especially since so many players claim PvP isn't worth their time to begin with. Tell me what I'm missing here. Assuming you get this to level 80 and get 5 chances a day at a little over 69% success rate, what would your best case scenario benefit be from PvP? Keep in mind that it has taken 243,563 FP to level it that far. Even if you were able to plunder 5 Maharaja's Palaces a day because of it (which is highly unlikely), how long would it take for 25 FP and 25 goods a day to justify that effort? Even without the nerf, this is a luxury item GB at best.
What you are missing is that some players have been investing heavily in their defense buildings. Those investments are worthless with the Virgo. Itr's like nerfing all defense GB's. With the Kraken defense is already brought back to 7 units, so it is hard enough, even with a massive defense.

Fact that it is limited to 5 chances a day does not mean anything. 5 is about the number of players in a hood that have a high defense, so it is all the number of efforts you need. Why should you have to justify the number of fp's spend to bring it to level 80? Players who bring their defense GB's to that level have spend way more and get way less from those GB's. The way I see it, it is about game balance. Game balance isn't that great at the moment, but Virgo would even make it worse.
 

Stephen Longshanks

Well-Known Member
What you are missing is that some players have been investing heavily in their defense buildings.
I get that, but it isn't the defenders complaining, it's the attackers.
Fact that it is limited to 5 chances a day does not mean anything. 5 is about the number of players in a hood that have a high defense,
I don't know what hoods you've been in, but the hoods I've been in from CE on have a dozen or two hoodies with high defenses.
 

Agent327

FOE Team
Forum Moderator
I get that, but it isn't the defenders complaining, it's the attackers.
From what I saw on beta Virgo ws nerfed because players with high defense started to complain their defense would become useless and it was something they invested in heavily, so it woild not be fair if that investment would be put to waste.

I don't know what hoods you've been in, but the hoods I've been in from CE on have a dozen or two hoodies with high defenses.
It's all about what you consider to be high. High defense isn't about the defending part of your defense, but about the attack part. I encounter not more than a couple of hoodies in every hood that have St Basil, Deal and Terra on level 80 or more.
 

ODragon

Well-Known Member
I'm invested in my defense (not like some mind you, 43/377) with 3/7 above age troops, I'm in Indy. Of course, a neighbor with a new L3 Virgo nuked the 2 of the 3 above age troops and trounced the rest. Pretty annoying so I can see why people would be upset. That said, I'll do my best to collect on time and if he plunders, he plunders. I plunder often enough that I can't be mad at anyone else for it.
 

Emberguard

Senior Ingame Moderator
Precisely. A building designed for combat with no counter is not balanced at all without being so weak it merely nudges the results. Even less balanced when it trumps everything and has no limit on who can build it.

69% is still the majority of the time where you have a big win button. If it was in Sam only it wouldn’t matter quite as much - you have a no plunder zone on the colony and a whole lot more stuff. But what’s balanced in Sam is not balanced in Iron Age.

And that still wouldn’t address the issue of it effectively tearing down the defence GBs that players built up. It’s not like the other GB multiplies a unit upon death for defence troops only or that having a Virgo would prevent the other Virgo from firing. Or that the Virgo could work passively against attackers to even the playing field. Until there a counter for the Virgo it’d be unreasonable to put that in PvP on top of everything else that’s available
 

mamboking053

Well-Known Member
Precisely. A building designed for combat with no counter is not balanced at all without being so weak it merely nudges the results. Even less balanced when it trumps everything and has no limit on who can build it.

69% is still the majority of the time where you have a big win button. If it was in Sam only it wouldn’t matter quite as much - you have a no plunder zone on the colony and a whole lot more stuff. But what’s balanced in Sam is not balanced in Iron Age.

And that still wouldn’t address the issue of it effectively tearing down the defence GBs that players built up. It’s not like the other GB multiplies a unit upon death for defence troops only or that having a Virgo would prevent the other Virgo from firing. Or that the Virgo could work passively against attackers to even the playing field. Until there a counter for the Virgo it’d be unreasonable to put that in PvP on top of everything else that’s available
Would it have been better if they did something like substitute the VP current proc for something like getting an additional x amount of turns in the combat rotation? If you have eight troops and the enemy has eight troops, than a complete rotation would be 8 turns for you and 8 turns for the enemy. By adding turns you would get anywhere from 1 turn to maybe 4 or 5 extra turns (but this extra turn only happens once during the entire battle so that you would go back to a max eight turns after this initial boost, or however many troops you have).

This scenario improves the offensive power of the player without providing the instant kill of half the army- effectively ignoring defense- that the VP does and so even if relatively small players got it, they would still have to contend with units possessing superior defense. It would be chance based so that the chance was relatively low, but there is no limit to how many battles it can be applied to.
 

Emberguard

Senior Ingame Moderator
It’s hard to say whether that’d be better or not without testing both options side by side on 100% activation rate to see worst case scenario. It might as well be instant kill if your enemy can’t do anything before they’re destroyed.
 

mamboking053

Well-Known Member
It’s hard to say whether that’d be better or not without testing both options side by side on 100% activation rate to see worst case scenario. It might as well be instant kill if your enemy can’t do anything before they’re destroyed.
I think it's definitely different from insta-kill.

With insta-kill, you don't even have to move, don't have to be in strike range, don't have to deal with potential terrain impediments, don't have to deal with potential troop weaknesses or any of that. You remove four units from the enemy irrespective of their defense.

However, with the second method, you gain the advantage of extra movements, but still have to contend with all those things mentioned above. It's true that for those players with massive attack boosts that it may provide the edge to crack a previously uncrackable defense, but escalation is part of the game and the defender will just have to get more defense if they want to remain impenetrable. Being impenetrable is a great achievement, but it isn't a right.

* As a side note, now I know why Iran want's nuclear weapons, lol.
 

Agent327

FOE Team
Forum Moderator
However, with the second method, you gain the advantage of extra movements, but still have to contend with all those things mentioned above. It's true that for those players with massive attack boosts that it may provide the edge to crack a previously uncrackable defense, but escalation is part of the game and the defender will just have to get more defense if they want to remain impenetrable. Being impenetrable is a great achievement, but it isn't a right.

Accept ofcourse that a defender already has a big disadvantage. As an attacker you have 1 GB more to give you an attack bonus, you have rogues you can use, plus you have the Kraken that gives you a certain kill at the start of the fight. So a defender is left with only 7 units to defend and operated by an AI that actually is an AN where the N stands for nitwit. Why should an attacker get an even bigger advantage?
 

mamboking053

Well-Known Member
Accept ofcourse that a defender already has a big disadvantage. As an attacker you have 1 GB more to give you an attack bonus, you have rogues you can use, plus you have the Kraken that gives you a certain kill at the start of the fight. So a defender is left with only 7 units to defend and operated by an AI that actually is an AN where the N stands for nitwit. Why should an attacker get an even bigger advantage?
Makes sense. I was just offering something better than insta-kills. Maybe they'll come up with something like Ion Shielding the next age which improves combat defense and defense-defense. Who knows...
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
Makes sense. I was just offering something better than insta-kills. Maybe they'll come up with something like Ion Shielding the next age which improves combat defense and defense-defense. Who knows...
I suspect VP was built for Battlegrounds and will really come into full effect there.

Once a hard core fighter hits a high Attrition and starts losing battles, collecting Virgo and having the next 6 battles give you a 70% chance of wiping out half the opposing force before the fight even begins, that's when Virgo Project's boost will make a difference. At that point, few will care about not being able to waste that kind of power on a hood fight or plunder run.
 

Agent327

FOE Team
Forum Moderator
I suspect VP was built for Battlegrounds and will really come into full effect there.

Once a hard core fighter hits a high Attrition and starts losing battles, collecting Virgo and having the next 6 battles give you a 70% chance of wiping out half the opposing force before the fight even begins, that's when Virgo Project's boost will make a difference. At that point, few will care about not being able to waste that kind of power on a hood fight or plunder run.
Except that Battlegrounds is set up in a way you do not really need it. Judging from the announcement players perform individual fights, so if a player runs out of "juice" because of attrition, the next player can take over. The top GvG guilds have plenty of players to handle this, so once again they will dominate. No Virgo needed for that.

Besides that, I think IOnno is rather clueless when it comes to the attack % some players have. Attrition might be a joke to most.
 

mamboking053

Well-Known Member
Except that Battlegrounds is set up in a way you do not really need it. Judging from the announcement players perform individual fights, so if a player runs out of "juice" because of attrition, the next player can take over. The top GvG guilds have plenty of players to handle this, so once again they will dominate. No Virgo needed for that.

Besides that, I think IOnno is rather clueless when it comes to the attack % some players have. Attrition might be a joke to most.
It's instanced and tiered from what I heard, so powerful guilds will only be able to contest and dominate similarly powerful guilds. The strongest of each tier will always win, same with any sport, but at least there can be many more winners than the same 5 or so who not only dominate but are generally entrenched in their position.

I imagined something similar with VP- that it would be the deciding factor among superpowers. I think that extra 3 - 6 battles per day for every player with a VP will add up over the course of 10 days to give a substantial lead. The attrition now makes even more sense. The VP is basically a nuclear weapon and if you want to be top dog of the new GBG, you get yourself into the arms race.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
Except that Battlegrounds is set up in a way you do not really need it. Judging from the announcement players perform individual fights, so if a player runs out of "juice" because of attrition, the next player can take over. The top GvG guilds have plenty of players to handle this, so once again they will dominate. No Virgo needed for that.

Besides that, I think Inno is rather clueless when it comes to the attack % some players have. Attrition might be a joke to most.
Except that battles will be fought and negotiated by individual players at individual times throughout the day. We'll have to see how it plays out, but there seems to be little benefit to an entire guild coordinating their attacks to all attack at the same time or even all at once for the individual player.

According to what's been shared so far, players who can currently do 100+ battles in GvG, with attrition, will only be able to do 40 - 60 in Battlegrounds. Take that 40 - 60 successful fights, stretch that to 45 - 65 every day, add in the multiple players from a large guild across multiple ages, ... that's when Virgo Project will come into it's own. Finally finding it's true value in the game.

Once leagues sort out, a guild won't be able to dominate in Battlegrounds simply because of size, their competitors will always be equally matched with them in performance, every 10 days. In each league, the competitive advantage provided by multiple Virgos at the top of each player's attrition cycle, every day, could very well make a huge difference in which guild wins on the map that round.

When you can already beat up everything in sight without Virgo, Virgo has little value. When you can barely fight anymore and wish half your enemy would just disappear, well ... Virgo to the rescue.

Seems many want to give up on Battlegrounds simply because their 'little guild' may never end up in the Diamond league, earning 'big' diamond league prestige points, playing against 'big' diamond league guilds.

Okay, maybe no right now, but small growing guilds will attract small growing players. Before long, small growing guilds with small growing players become bigger and better guilds attracting bigger and better players. Bigger and better guilds with bigger and better players will move up in leagues to challenge other bigger and better guilds also moving up in leagues.

I'm not really worried about what League I'm in or what guild we're fighting against. All I'll care about is if, every 10 days, we're kicking butt and taking names on the map. If we are, the leagues will sort themselves out.

Besides ... victory only lasts 4 days. Then it all starts over again.
 

dpghost

Active Member
My A/D is 452/268 in SAM. All troops unlocked
I dare you to find me a defendant that I can't win the fight.
If I choose the right attack team, I win for sure
Don't need the virgo or any other contraption
 

mamboking053

Well-Known Member
My A/D is 452/268 in SAM. All troops unlocked
I dare you to find me a defendant that I can't win the fight.
If I choose the right attack team, I win for sure
Don't need the virgo or any other contraption
You have 268 defense for your attacking troops? Is it all from the defense GB's or something else?