DeletedUser26965
I'm creating this post to be informative in a continued effort to change what has plagued the FoE community since nearly the start.
tl;dr end these so called "fair" trade standards and let people trade as they wish.
So let's start with a few simple facts. The market here on FoE is a Barter System, that's it, no medium of exchange, no rules. I got a good you want, you got a good I want, we exchange them and go on our happy way. Easy right? Well hold on cuz aint nuthin in life easy. The first actual change from Inno I believe came when there was a form of account abuse going on regarding pushing and the market and so they implemented a hard ratio between trades, 0.5 - 2. This is not to be confused with one form of accepted trading of 2:1 up 1:1 across 1:2 Down, it was simply a measure put in place to prevent abuse and was made I believe back in 2012 and though players were not happy with the change it remained. I personally think they should change it back to any ratio you want and find other ways to deal with cheaters without it coming at the cost of everyone elses game but so be it, it's what we got.
Then one day someone decided to take the Barter System and make it what they call "THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM", spoken like a true dictator I'm sure at the time. The earliest post I can find in this regard is from Feb 2013 and is the system of trading as described above; 2:1 up 1:1 across 1:2 Down. Class T101 - Trade Market
This system has become many o' guilds standard for trade through all ages to this day. Bye-Bye Barter System.
Not long after I first started playing I asked myself, why is this good worth that good at that rate? I think many players go through this and the natural tendency people have is to try to figure out some "way" to make trading "right" or "fair" or whatever. I started to do so myself but then I reminded myself the folly in it. Here's one simple fact of not only the game, or any game with a market, but of real life as well. There are simply too many variables at play, simply too many independent decisions made by too many independent people as to what to do with their time, production and spending for you to try to control. This does not change because you are playing a game. You are actually partaking in economic choices not so different than your real life. Sure the form is different, the ramifications obviously different but the methods very much the same, you remain human when playing the game therefore follow many of the same human guiding decisions of what to do with your time, production and spending. A perfect example relative to FoE is players tend to build the smaller of goods building thereby affecting value in the marketplace i.e. Iron is less valuable than Ebony, Paper less valuable than Porcelain yet these "fair" trade guilds force equality when there's natural inequality due to human behavior thereby devaluing some of my goods if I get the deposits for said goods.
So then I started asking people, why are we doing it this way? This is when I discovered the big FoE argument i.e. The Great "Fair" Trade Debate. I had no idea at the time how ingrained THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM had become. So I started looking and found others were doing it another way. This other way had been deemed "THE FAIR TRADE CALCULATOR", oh god, another one who thinks they got "THE ANSWER". But wait, which one is fair? They can't both be "fair" because they are only the same in terms of production costs of Coins and Supplies up to Colonial Age. BUT WAIT! Why do it this way! Why choose Coins and Supplies as the base for value? Seems just as arbitrary as the other system, just slap a "fair" label on it and people will believe, and many have.
So time and time again I ask those who support "THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM", why, and time and time again I find the replies unsatisfying to say the least. Just recently I got a response "Because it works", lol that's it, spoken like a true dictator. Of course it works, anything will work with a gun to someones head, or a kick button.
To be "fair", lol, I accept that guilds want to set a standard, I think they do so wrongheadedly and probably more so out of simplicity and ease of use rather than some lofty notion of "fairness" but so be it, it's their guild they can do what they wan't. That's the beauty of games like this, don't like something, join or start another guild. That being said too many guilds adopt one standard or the other crowding out the free traders which makes the notion of trying to start or join free trade guilds only for that one reason impractical. No, one day I would like to see ALL guilds end their trading standards and simply just let people trade. If you think your fellow guildmates will be taken advantage of somehow then simply inform the guild of what you think is unfair and let others decide for themselves if they think so as well. You're not the one taking the trade so what do you care.
There is no system. There is no system. There is no system.
But let's get a few other facts out of the way. Your market is your own. Your market is not my market. Your fellow guildmates market is not your market. Our markets are independent of one another by upwards of a 74% difference, or more depending on guild size, because of friends and neighbors. This means guilds are dictating what players can trade with 74% of their own market! Sound fair?
You know what else aint fair? Why is your time worth more than mine at a lower age? My 8 hours is worth your 4 hours? If we're going off of direct goods making that is.
This "THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM" is completely unfair to those at lower ages trading up especially the higher the age one gets! You're really going to tell me that when I replace my Superconductor Factory with a Paper Battery Factory I'm somehow now entitled to twice the Superconductors? How is that fair to the guy trading Superconductors for Paper Batteries?
You may find yourself begin to say something like "well the AF guy spent time, fp's, blah blah blah" STOP! and repeat, There is no system. There is no system. There is no system.
Some other basic facts;
Cost of goods in terms of Coins and Supplies @24h productions.
BA 400
IA 800
EMA 1600
HMA 3200
LMA 6400
CA 9600
InA 12800
PE 16000
(Base cost +1 Unrefined Good)
ME 9,600 + CA 9,600 = 19,200
PME 11,200 + InA 12,800 = 24,000
CE 12,800 + PE 16,000 = 28,800
(Base cost +2 Unrefined Goods)
TE 14,400 + ME 9,600 + CA 9,600 = 33,600
FE 16,000 + PME 11,200 + InA 12,800 = 40,000
AF 18,000 + CE 12,800 + PE 16,000 = 46,800
(Base cost +3 Unrefined Goods)
OF 18,000 + TE 14,400 + ME 9,600 + CA 9,600 = 51,600
What the ratios would be based strictly on C/S cost
BA - 1:2
IA - 1:2
EMA - 1:2
HMA - 1:2
LMA - 1:2
CA - 1:1.5
InA - 1:1.33
PE - 1:1.25
ME - 1:1.20
PME - 1:1.25
CE - 1:1.20
TE - 1:1.17
FE - 1:1.19
AF - 1:1.16
OF - 1:1.10
We get "free" goods from;
Plunder
Treasure Hunt
Guild Expedition
ToR/Relics
The Continent Map
Great Buildings
Quests/Recurring Quests
Events/Special Buildings
Gonna factor in those "free" goods into the value of "THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM" or no?
We also get goods by trading forge points for them. What value do these have? I did not spend Coins or Supplies for them, aside form the much smaller, insignificant by comparison amount for the trade, nor for many of the sources listed above.
Lastly "THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM" fundamentally promotes a broken market, everyone smart enough will recognize to never trade up, only trade down, never take trades @1:2 and only take trades @2:1. over a long enough period of time the time savings are tremendous, the time losses for the other guy oh well, we got a system right?
"Fair" Trade is Not "Fair"
End "Fair" trade, Start Free Trade
Say No to the "Fair" trade system
"Fair" Trade Is Stealing
Implement World Trade
I can hear the dictators now; "all you want to do is "steal" from people." Guess what mister dictator, trades are voluntary, you don't have to take what you believe is "unfair". If the guy taking the trade finds it to be fair then who are you to say otherwise.
I can hear the lazy people now too, "oh god not 5000 pages of trades", listen lazyarse that's actually a good thing, more competition drives down prices, or trade ratios in regards to bartering i.e. you'll find better "fairer" deals. And there are filter options for a reason.
It's also rather unfortunate Inno has "fairly", lol I can't get enough of that, recently implemented two features that must be removed ASAP. On the Mobile platform there is a "Fair Trade" selection box that sets the ratio standard, Browser does not have this checkbox rather if you enter the good you're offering and the amount first then select the good you want it automatically sets the ratio. THIS DOES NOT MEAN INNO SAYS THIS IS THE TRADE SYSTEM THAT MUST BE USED!!! We have no idea why they did that, my guess is someone who works there that plays wanted a lazy way to make trades following his guilds standard. So let's end this silliness shall we?
Let's end "fair" trade, you really have nothing to lose.
tl;dr end these so called "fair" trade standards and let people trade as they wish.
So let's start with a few simple facts. The market here on FoE is a Barter System, that's it, no medium of exchange, no rules. I got a good you want, you got a good I want, we exchange them and go on our happy way. Easy right? Well hold on cuz aint nuthin in life easy. The first actual change from Inno I believe came when there was a form of account abuse going on regarding pushing and the market and so they implemented a hard ratio between trades, 0.5 - 2. This is not to be confused with one form of accepted trading of 2:1 up 1:1 across 1:2 Down, it was simply a measure put in place to prevent abuse and was made I believe back in 2012 and though players were not happy with the change it remained. I personally think they should change it back to any ratio you want and find other ways to deal with cheaters without it coming at the cost of everyone elses game but so be it, it's what we got.
Then one day someone decided to take the Barter System and make it what they call "THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM", spoken like a true dictator I'm sure at the time. The earliest post I can find in this regard is from Feb 2013 and is the system of trading as described above; 2:1 up 1:1 across 1:2 Down. Class T101 - Trade Market
This system has become many o' guilds standard for trade through all ages to this day. Bye-Bye Barter System.
Not long after I first started playing I asked myself, why is this good worth that good at that rate? I think many players go through this and the natural tendency people have is to try to figure out some "way" to make trading "right" or "fair" or whatever. I started to do so myself but then I reminded myself the folly in it. Here's one simple fact of not only the game, or any game with a market, but of real life as well. There are simply too many variables at play, simply too many independent decisions made by too many independent people as to what to do with their time, production and spending for you to try to control. This does not change because you are playing a game. You are actually partaking in economic choices not so different than your real life. Sure the form is different, the ramifications obviously different but the methods very much the same, you remain human when playing the game therefore follow many of the same human guiding decisions of what to do with your time, production and spending. A perfect example relative to FoE is players tend to build the smaller of goods building thereby affecting value in the marketplace i.e. Iron is less valuable than Ebony, Paper less valuable than Porcelain yet these "fair" trade guilds force equality when there's natural inequality due to human behavior thereby devaluing some of my goods if I get the deposits for said goods.
So then I started asking people, why are we doing it this way? This is when I discovered the big FoE argument i.e. The Great "Fair" Trade Debate. I had no idea at the time how ingrained THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM had become. So I started looking and found others were doing it another way. This other way had been deemed "THE FAIR TRADE CALCULATOR", oh god, another one who thinks they got "THE ANSWER". But wait, which one is fair? They can't both be "fair" because they are only the same in terms of production costs of Coins and Supplies up to Colonial Age. BUT WAIT! Why do it this way! Why choose Coins and Supplies as the base for value? Seems just as arbitrary as the other system, just slap a "fair" label on it and people will believe, and many have.
So time and time again I ask those who support "THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM", why, and time and time again I find the replies unsatisfying to say the least. Just recently I got a response "Because it works", lol that's it, spoken like a true dictator. Of course it works, anything will work with a gun to someones head, or a kick button.
To be "fair", lol, I accept that guilds want to set a standard, I think they do so wrongheadedly and probably more so out of simplicity and ease of use rather than some lofty notion of "fairness" but so be it, it's their guild they can do what they wan't. That's the beauty of games like this, don't like something, join or start another guild. That being said too many guilds adopt one standard or the other crowding out the free traders which makes the notion of trying to start or join free trade guilds only for that one reason impractical. No, one day I would like to see ALL guilds end their trading standards and simply just let people trade. If you think your fellow guildmates will be taken advantage of somehow then simply inform the guild of what you think is unfair and let others decide for themselves if they think so as well. You're not the one taking the trade so what do you care.
There is no system. There is no system. There is no system.
But let's get a few other facts out of the way. Your market is your own. Your market is not my market. Your fellow guildmates market is not your market. Our markets are independent of one another by upwards of a 74% difference, or more depending on guild size, because of friends and neighbors. This means guilds are dictating what players can trade with 74% of their own market! Sound fair?
You know what else aint fair? Why is your time worth more than mine at a lower age? My 8 hours is worth your 4 hours? If we're going off of direct goods making that is.
This "THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM" is completely unfair to those at lower ages trading up especially the higher the age one gets! You're really going to tell me that when I replace my Superconductor Factory with a Paper Battery Factory I'm somehow now entitled to twice the Superconductors? How is that fair to the guy trading Superconductors for Paper Batteries?
You may find yourself begin to say something like "well the AF guy spent time, fp's, blah blah blah" STOP! and repeat, There is no system. There is no system. There is no system.
Some other basic facts;
Cost of goods in terms of Coins and Supplies @24h productions.
BA 400
IA 800
EMA 1600
HMA 3200
LMA 6400
CA 9600
InA 12800
PE 16000
(Base cost +1 Unrefined Good)
ME 9,600 + CA 9,600 = 19,200
PME 11,200 + InA 12,800 = 24,000
CE 12,800 + PE 16,000 = 28,800
(Base cost +2 Unrefined Goods)
TE 14,400 + ME 9,600 + CA 9,600 = 33,600
FE 16,000 + PME 11,200 + InA 12,800 = 40,000
AF 18,000 + CE 12,800 + PE 16,000 = 46,800
(Base cost +3 Unrefined Goods)
OF 18,000 + TE 14,400 + ME 9,600 + CA 9,600 = 51,600
What the ratios would be based strictly on C/S cost
BA - 1:2
IA - 1:2
EMA - 1:2
HMA - 1:2
LMA - 1:2
CA - 1:1.5
InA - 1:1.33
PE - 1:1.25
ME - 1:1.20
PME - 1:1.25
CE - 1:1.20
TE - 1:1.17
FE - 1:1.19
AF - 1:1.16
OF - 1:1.10
We get "free" goods from;
Plunder
Treasure Hunt
Guild Expedition
ToR/Relics
The Continent Map
Great Buildings
Quests/Recurring Quests
Events/Special Buildings
Gonna factor in those "free" goods into the value of "THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM" or no?
We also get goods by trading forge points for them. What value do these have? I did not spend Coins or Supplies for them, aside form the much smaller, insignificant by comparison amount for the trade, nor for many of the sources listed above.
Lastly "THE FAIR TRADE SYSTEM" fundamentally promotes a broken market, everyone smart enough will recognize to never trade up, only trade down, never take trades @1:2 and only take trades @2:1. over a long enough period of time the time savings are tremendous, the time losses for the other guy oh well, we got a system right?
"Fair" Trade is Not "Fair"
End "Fair" trade, Start Free Trade
Say No to the "Fair" trade system
"Fair" Trade Is Stealing
Implement World Trade
I can hear the dictators now; "all you want to do is "steal" from people." Guess what mister dictator, trades are voluntary, you don't have to take what you believe is "unfair". If the guy taking the trade finds it to be fair then who are you to say otherwise.
I can hear the lazy people now too, "oh god not 5000 pages of trades", listen lazyarse that's actually a good thing, more competition drives down prices, or trade ratios in regards to bartering i.e. you'll find better "fairer" deals. And there are filter options for a reason.
It's also rather unfortunate Inno has "fairly", lol I can't get enough of that, recently implemented two features that must be removed ASAP. On the Mobile platform there is a "Fair Trade" selection box that sets the ratio standard, Browser does not have this checkbox rather if you enter the good you're offering and the amount first then select the good you want it automatically sets the ratio. THIS DOES NOT MEAN INNO SAYS THIS IS THE TRADE SYSTEM THAT MUST BE USED!!! We have no idea why they did that, my guess is someone who works there that plays wanted a lazy way to make trades following his guilds standard. So let's end this silliness shall we?
Let's end "fair" trade, you really have nothing to lose.
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