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a

DeletedUser

@Stephen Longshanks Athletes Living Quarters is also a special building right? So technically when motivated the goods it makes are just of whatever era it's currently in. Meaning not refined goods.
It can be updated with the Reno or One-Up Kits, so all you have to do is keep it up to date with your city and it will produce refined goods from Modern Era on up. That's how it works, just like your set pieces. Except you only have to use one on the ALQ, as opposed to a set.
 

DeletedUser10720

I think a lot of people are overlooking the point of what the OP is trying to calculate here. Yes OP is using a very limited data set and can only account for some of the many variables that come into play across the game. But that's no reason to completely discount all data. It is possible to draw rough estimates and make educated assumptions. As more data is gathered more can be refined.

It is true that defensive buildings are a tricky thing to balance in the game. And most are not directly productive. I think overall a 0% is not going to be the way things stay for long. But minimizing focus of defense for things that are more productive can be beneficial. I do see evidence for that in the data here and in my own gaming experience.

The exact numbers of profit over loss and risk vs reward vary wildly on what you choose to build, what age, aid, hood activity and most importantly how others choose to interact with you. Many of these things are beyond your control. So throwing out numbers is relatively pointless. Calculating population happy and output is completely dependent on what you have at your disposal and that changes with every player.

But OP has valid points in that, if you can produce more than is lost. Then the net profit is still there and you're better off for it. If you can get more goods from *motivated* specials. They can't be plundered and, age depending, are comparable to, or smaller than, the amount of space many cities have devoted to their watchfire fields (Myself included)

We have all had several weeks of effectively dead hoods. Where there is minimal attack or retaliation, even less aid than normal. It's clear inno has taken note of this and has been implementing more ways to encourage attacking. Through quests, GB rewards and more frequent hood shifts. So the move is risky at best.

That said, I do believe there is a level at which one has reached the most their defense will actually ever need and continued building of defense is excessive and wasteful of space that can be profitable. I don't know what that number is and don't believe anyone will ever be able to say a defending army needs exactly x% / y% boosts and will be perfect forever. But I believe that between the A.I. being able to lose nearly every battle to the properly boosted attack army. More people have passed that point than care to admit it.

Consider the monestary for a moment. Nearly everyone has this and even the majority of people well into oceanic keep it. Even though it's less efficient that the equal space of 9 watchfires ( most of us probably have many more than 9 built already) that don't need a road. And yet it persists. Sure it looks hard to take that % loss to your defensive army but there are a whole bunch of 3x3 structures that can fit there and be very helpful. And plenty can be motivated so they could also avoid plunder. Or in the case of a WW, can't be plundered at all.

Many people focus so much on the idea of losing the battle they are willing to lose a significant amount of production by dedicating excessive space and resources to defense.
 

DeletedUser

But OP has valid points in that, if you can produce more than is lost. Then the net profit is still there and you're better off for it. If you can get more goods from *motivated* specials. They can't be plundered and, age depending, are comparable to, or smaller than, the amount of space many cities have devoted to their watchfire fields
The OP only refers to regular goods buildings "replacing" defense items, not special buildings that can be motivated. So he is actually advocating having 0% defense, while filling his city with buildings that can't be motivated and thus are always vulnerable to plundering. It is like telling you to leave all your doors and windows unlocked and leave all your valuables out because you live in a "safe" neighborhood. Maybe you get lucky and never have a problem. Maybe not. That is exactly what he is advocating as a game strategy, and he claims it is valid for everyone in every situation. Based on his own "experience". And meanwhile he discounts every other player who relates that their experience tells them the exact opposite, and tries to pass off his small set data from 3 cities as conclusive evidence that he is right. Never mind that there are thousands of cities just on the U.S. servers, so his statistical margin of error is astronomical. smh
 

DeletedUser31498

Little late here, but any time Sal is involved I need to add some logic to the conversation.

I think people are just MASSIVELY psychologically over-impacted by being plundered, compared to the actual in-game cost. Sal's post was a perfect example:
Even being #1, with a huge defensive bonus, I am being attacked regularly. If I had a 0% defense, those attackers would all have been successful and many of them would have been able to plunder me if they caught me between collections.

First, I think you over-state how much defenders care about defense bonus. Lots of people are just super lazy, attack, and if it's not an easy match-up will resign. But that's a minor point.

Second, it sounds like no one even successfully plundered you, despite breaching your huge defensive bonus, and despite real live interfering.

But suppose they had? The problem here is everyone is talking in absolutes. Either 0% defense, or I can never get plundered ever.

The interesting question from a MAXIMIZATION standpoint is:

What is the OPTIMAL amount of plundering? If you can never collect, you need more defense obviously, If you're never plundered, you need less. And OP is correct in how he's approaching the problem. For him, me, MANY others, 0% is correct (well, just the cherry set defense now :).

If you're plundered once a day, run 24-hour cycles,and are devoting more than one good building equivalent of space (including pop, happiness, building size, etc.), you are in the middle ground where it's not clear. Would more defense stop the breach? Probably not? Would less mean more breaches? Idk probably not.

Anyway, dealing in absolutes is for Siths, anyone worth debating understands the question is about maximizing, which at least OP and empire are approaching correctly.

@Salsuero can you tell me how many spaces you dedicate to defense and how many goods you've lost over the last month from plundering?
 

Snarko

Active Member
First, I think you over-state how much defenders care about defense bonus. Lots of people are just super lazy, attack, and if it's not an easy match-up will resign. But that's a minor point.
*attackers care
In lower ages this is a big deal. I often get attacked by people who insta-surrender seeing my current age army with literally 0% defense boost. Then the next day they do the same thing, because they're idiots.

If people look at those attacks and think it's their awesome defense bonus that saved them they would reach the wrong conclusions about how much defense they need.
 

DeletedUser

I often get attacked by people who insta-surrender seeing my current age army with literally 0% defense boost.
When I attack and see a current age army with 0% defense boost, I laugh and hit auto-battle. Having a current age army means exactly nothing without a defense boost.
 

DeletedUser32906

It can be updated with the Reno or One-Up Kits, so all you have to do is keep it up to date with your city and it will produce refined goods from Modern Era on up. That's how it works, just like your set pieces. Except you only have to use one on the ALQ, as opposed to a set.
I love my Athletes Living Quarters...... great for when you get a daily asking for a lot of goods as well as a good city defense boost
 

Snarko

Active Member
When I attack and see a current age army with 0% defense boost, I laugh and hit auto-battle. Having a current age army means exactly nothing without a defense boost.
Maybe in higher ages it means nothing where anyone who wants to plunder will have attack boosts. In lower ages it matters. They didn't attack by accident. They are looking for people with even weaker armies, of which there are plenty in lower ages. I seem to have people like that in my hood almost every week. So as I stated, in lower ages, having a current age army can and will prevent attacks. Not all of them of course but many of them.

I have no idea if they would plunder if they breach (another thing entirely) and I'm not willing to find out.
 

DeletedUser

Maybe in higher ages it means nothing where anyone who wants to plunder will have attack boosts. In lower ages it matters. They didn't attack by accident. They are looking for people with even weaker armies, of which there are plenty in lower ages. I seem to have people like that in my hood almost every week. So as I stated, in lower ages, having a current age army can and will prevent attacks. Not all of them of course but many of them.

I have no idea if they would plunder if they breach (another thing entirely) and I'm not willing to find out.
Sorry, but I play in lower ages, too. I have multiple cities. And I attack my neighbors in all my cities that are past the Military Tactics tech. And yes, even in the lower ages I laugh when I see a defense army with no boost, no matter what its makeup in units.
 

Graviton

Well-Known Member
So as I stated, in lower ages, having a current age army can and will prevent attacks. Not all of them of course but many of them.

I'm not going to abandon defense boosts, but mine isn't outlandish, and this happened to me twice just since the last hood change. Two attackers gave up immediately when they saw I had current-age troops on defense.
 

DeletedUser29218

Sorry, but I play in lower ages, too. I have multiple cities. And I attack my neighbors in all my cities that are past the Military Tactics tech. And yes, even in the lower ages I laugh when I see a defense army with no boost, no matter what its makeup in units.
Stehen, not everyone is you.
 

DeletedUser

Stehen, not everyone is you.
Gee, ya think? :rolleyes:

But you're right. Nobody else looks at a 0% defense army and laughs. Everyone else runs away in fear of those awesome, unboosted current era troops. I withdraw my objection to his obviously all-encompassing knowledge of the game outside my small area.
 

DeletedUser34800

I won't lie, I'm really lazy. Like REALLY lazy. I don't fight my neighborhood, and I rarely aid them. I'm usually top 10, so I don't get bothered.

When I get a quest to win X amount of fights, and GE isn't available (literally today), I go and attack my neighbors. If they have any sort of army at all, I just retreat. I don't have time for that mess. I don't care that I'm using Industrial Age troops against Colonial Age armies, with me having nice attack/defense GBs.

It's just too much button clicking. So I back out and find the guys with 2 spearfighters as a defense army and fight them. That's much better.

Of course, I had no intention of plundering the people I fight anyways (unless it's an Alabaster Mason, can't get enough Alabaster), so there's that. But their army does stop me from attempting (though, again, wasn't gonna plunder anyways). Could I win? Yes. Do I bother to check or try? No.

But maybe I'm the odd ball out here....

Edit: there to their. I'm embarrassed...
 

DeletedUser

I won't lie, I'm really lazy. Like REALLY lazy. I don't fight my neighborhood, and I rarely aid them. I'm usually top 10, so I don't get bothered.

When I get a quest to win X amount of fights, and GE isn't available (literally today), I go and attack my neighbors. If they have any sort of army at all, I just retreat. I don't have time for that mess. I don't care that I'm using Industrial Age troops against Colonial Age armies, with me having nice attack/defense GBs.

It's just too much button clicking. So I back out and find the guys with 2 spearfighters as a defense army and fight them. That's much better.

Of course, I had no intention of plundering the people I fight anyways (unless it's an Alabaster Mason, can't get enough Alabaster), so there's that. But their army does stop me from attempting (though, again, wasn't gonna plunder anyways). Could I win? Yes. Do I bother to check or try? No.

But maybe I'm the odd ball out here....

Edit: there to their. I'm embarrassed...
No, I think that is exactly why most players that retreat in that situation do so. Not because they are intimidated, but they just don't want to go to the time or trouble.
 

DeletedUser34800

I can agree with that. It's just annoying. Taking that 1 piece of health off my unit!?! Unbelievable! Hahaha

But it's definitely not because I'm intimidated by their lower aged army, with probably little or no defense. Those spearfighters are just so much easier. And since I don't plunder at all, unless forced to (don't get me wrong, it's part if the game. I fully support plundering. It's not yours until you collect it. So collect on time), I don't want to bother fighting an army. Get enough of that in my GE, which I enjoy.
 

DeletedUser

attacking is rare.
...in your experience.
You use a faulty scientific method to come to an incorrect conclusion. There are many, many posts in multiple threads by players who have the exact opposite experience. They are attacked constantly. Plundered frequently. The majority of players fall somewhere in between. Your conclusion would be like someone going on TV and telling everyone they don't need auto insurance because "I've never had an accident." I don't know why you can't see how faulty your reasoning is here. It's painfully obvious to those of us who know that not everyone has the exact same experiences in the game that we do. For you, apparently, 0% defense seems to work and make sense. For others, it would make no sense whatsoever. For the majority of players, a balanced approach to production/defense makes the most sense. Your main problem is that you are putting forth an absolute statement, but it is based on data that is both limited and demonstrably not the norm for this game.
 

DeletedUser31498

Sorry, but I play in lower ages, too. I have multiple cities. And I attack my neighbors in all my cities that are past the Military Tactics tech. And yes, even in the lower ages I laugh when I see a defense army with no boost, no matter what its makeup in units.

Right, but the point is at what point would you NOT attack. It's great, you see 0% defense and auto-attack. if you saw 20% would you run away and hide? No, you wouldn't.

So your response is really not the point. The question is, at what point would it deter you (and keeping in mind you're a special breed since most in lower ages aren't nearly as sophisticated as you)?
 

DeletedUser

Right, but the point is at what point would you NOT attack. It's great, you see 0% defense and auto-attack. if you saw 20% would you run away and hide? No, you wouldn't.

So your response is really not the point. The question is, at what point would it deter you (and keeping in mind you're a special breed since most in lower ages aren't nearly as sophisticated as you)?
I am shocked...shocked, I say, that you think my response is not valid. Some day I'll figure out what you would accept as a valid response. (Never mind, I know the answer. "Yes, gutmeister, you're right.") Anyway, the post I was responding to was trying to make the point that defense boost didn't matter, that it was merely the placing of a current era, 8 member defense army that would deter attackers. Which is simply not true in most cases. And yes, I am a more sophisticated player than I was 3 years ago when I started. However, I was never a "casual" attacker in the sense that I would take one look at a current era defense army and tuck my tail and run. And the fact that he has seen a couple of players do that means precisely nothing in the grand scheme of things. It proves nothing about defense boost. All it proves is that there are a couple of rather incompetent attackers in his hood.

As to your question on what level of defense boost would make me run, the answer is different in each city I have. (Although I would not run, but strategically withdraw to a more secure position.;)) But, as I've pointed out over and over, the OP doesn't advocate having a low defense boost. Or even a moderate defense boost. And he certainly never advocated in this thread basing your preferred defense boost on variables in your circumstances or playstyle, or even in how your neighbors behave. He advocates, and has never strayed from, 0% defense at all times and in all cases. Period. Now if you want to start another thread where we chat about various levels of defense boost based on different factors, then let's do it. But this thread, if we're to stay on topic, is about 0% defense as an absolute optimal strategy in every city for all players. And that is just wrong.
 
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