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Why the definition of marriage matters

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Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
Quote my verbal hostility towards Christianity. Prove my intolerance. You state this as fact, so this should be easy.

I doubt you are so deliberately obtuse as to not understand that equating those who do not celebrate the perversion (traditional definition- look it up) of marriage with those who kill gays demonstrates blatant hostility towards Christianity.

What you are suffering from is "moral relativism". The late, great William F. Buckley provided a perfect analogy of your mindset:

Consider two individuals walking along two streets.

Both of these individuals spot an elderly woman about to step off the curb in front of an oncoming bus. One individual pushes the elderly lady directly INTO the path of the bus, while the other individual pushes the elderly lady OUT OF the path of the oncoming bus.

In your mind, both individuals are guilty of pushing elderly women.

You didn't answer my question.

The fact that you do not like the answer does not mean the question was unanswered.

Add in DOMA.

So there were, in fact, local, state and national expressions of opposition to SSM.

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Whose civil rights am I denying and what right, specifically, am I denying them?

Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

You're ignoring the second half of the Establishment clause. But then most Progressives do.
 

DeletedUser10415

I doubt you are so deliberately obtuse as to not understand that equating those who do not celebrate the perversion (traditional definition- look it up) of marriage with those who kill gays demonstrates blatant hostility towards Christianity.

But I've stated there are plenty of Christians who are not opposed to SSM. Why would I be hostile to them? No - I am not hostile toward Christians. I am hostile toward bigots who drape themselves with the mantle of Christianity as a veil to disguise their intolerance.

Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

You're ignoring the second half of the Establishment clause. But then most Progressives do.

I've never said you don't have the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. What I say you don't have a right to do is regulate others' affairs that have nothing to do with your own. What business is it of yours if a couple wants to get married? How would such a marriage have any effect on you, other than offending your personal morality?

P.S. : I'll see your dead Buckley and raise you a live one....
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ervative-s-case-for-the-freedom-to-marry.html
 
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cbalto1927

Active Member
No, actually you've dodged the question. Twice now. Konrad asked you "what exactly does sex have to do with marriage?" and you didn't answer. And here again, I've asked you, point-blank, and you don't answer. This is a thread about the definition of marriage. You keep bringing up sex, which by your words, "We humans aren't designed to have sex with another man" suggests you believe the sex act has something to do with marriage. Must people have sex if they get married? If so, why?


okay, i am going to type this out to answer your question. Sex is part of marriage. having relations between 2 man or 2 woman is just the same as having relations between a adult man and a child. I am not talking about " religious views" I am talking about scientific views is that it is quite impossible for 2 man or 2 woman to have a "baby". Does that answered your question? As for moral issue. Is it okay to marry a child? Since your saying it okay to marry of the same sex ( man to man/woman to woman) Both by definition immoral acts rather you are religious or not. Does this answered your question?
 

DeletedUser10415

okay, i am going to type this out to answer your question. Sex is part of marriage.
I am not talking about " religious views" I am talking about scientific views is that it is quite impossible for 2 man or 2 woman to have a "baby". Does that answered your question?

So only couples comprised of one adult male and one adult female who intend to and are capable of reproducing the 'good old-fashioned way' should be allowed to get married? That procreation through heterosexual intercourse is what marriage is all about? Is that what you're saying? It looks like that's what you're saying, but I'd like to be sure.
 
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cbalto1927

Active Member
So only couples comprised of one adult male and one adult female who intend to and are capable of reproducing the 'good old-fashioned way' should be allowed to get married? That procreation through heterosexual intercourse is what marriage is all about? Is that what you're saying? It looks like that's what you're saying, but I'd like to be sure.

not exactly, but Creation and as well Science has pointed out that marriage is basically a union between man and woman. That has been going on as long the human race has survived. It not until very recently some people think that gays should get married because of 2 man loves each other. Marriage is about love, i would agree with that. In the old standard is that before a man and a woman to have sex, they would get married. There's no reasons why should gays even allowed to be supported in the first place. It like saying it okay to be with a child but a person would know that "act" is immoral. It the same thing as same-sex marriage.
 

DeletedUser13838

To be clear, I contend that, Constitutionally, the Federal government has no power, explicit or implicit, to regulate marriage in any way. The entire fascade began with SCOTUS discovering a "right to privacy" in the early 1960s in a case involving contraception. We have gone since then from a 'right' for couples to use birth control to a 'right' to same sex marriage, the entire lineage based on a Constitutionally non-existent finding.

However, states absolutely do have the right, under the Constitution, to regulate marriage, as all powers not expressly given the Federal government within the Constitution belong to the states (a poor paraphrase of the Tenth Amendment). If California wants to legalize SSM and Kentucky not, then those are perfectly legal and Constitutional outcomes.

There seems to be a problem with what you write, whether or not your theory is correct. By your definition, a same sex couple in Kentucky is treated differently by the federal government than a same sex couple in California (e.g. federal income taxes, social security benefits, etc.). Is this result constitutional?
 

DeletedUser8428

not exactly, but Creation and as well Science has pointed out that marriage is basically a union between man and woman. That has been going on as long the human race has survived. It not until very recently some people think that gays should get married because of 2 man loves each other. Marriage is about love, i would agree with that. In the old standard is that before a man and a woman to have sex, they would get married. There's no reasons why should gays even allowed to be supported in the first place. It like saying it okay to be with a child but a person would know that "act" is immoral. It the same thing as same-sex marriage.

Beg to differ. Science has not pointed out anything like that.

Marriage the way you describe was not present in the Bible. Isaac and Jacob married cousins (amongst others) and Moses married his half-sister. Polygamy was common and marriage for 'love' was not widely practiced until the late 1700's. Marriages (as an official rite,rather than a common-law practice) were (sanctioned by the Church) created to protect inheritance.

If you see your issue as being with changes to the institution of marriage, you might take a look at the history of marriage before using the argument that 'it's always been this way' because it hasn't. If your issue is with societal approval of sexual relationships between members of the same sex, might be better to argue it that way.
 

cbalto1927

Active Member
Beg to differ. Science has not pointed out anything like that.

Marriage the way you describe was not present in the Bible. Isaac and Jacob married cousins (amongst others) and Moses married his half-sister. Polygamy was common and marriage for 'love' was not widely practiced until the late 1700's. Marriages (as an official rite,rather than a common-law practice) were (sanctioned by the Church) created to protect inheritance.

If you see your issue as being with changes to the institution of marriage, you might take a look at the history of marriage before using the argument that 'it's always been this way' because it hasn't. If your issue is with societal approval of sexual relationships between members of the same sex, might be better to argue it that way.

Okay whatever you say. If you support pedophilia, so be it. Your trying to justify that same sex marriage is right but pedophilia is wrong. To me it a hypocrisy at work here. Your saying one thing is okay, another is not. This is exactly what i been trying to say. Both same sex marriage and pedophilia is wrong regardless of your petty arguments.
 

DeletedUser8428

Okay whatever you say. If you support pedophilia, so be it. Your trying to justify that same sex marriage is right but pedophilia is wrong. To me it a hypocrisy at work here. Your saying one thing is okay, another is not. This is exactly what i been trying to say. Both same sex marriage and pedophilia is wrong regardless of your petty arguments.

I beg your pardon? I didn't mention pedophilia in any guise.

The point I made was that you might want to be careful about basing your discussion on "Creation and as well Science has pointed out that marriage is basically a union between man and woman" because the biblical portrayal of marriage doesn't look like marriage in the US today, and science has no such finding about marriage being "a union between a man and a woman".
 

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
So only couples comprised of one adult male and one adult female who intend to and are capable of reproducing the 'good old-fashioned way' should be allowed to get married? That procreation through heterosexual intercourse is what marriage is all about? Is that what you're saying? It looks like that's what you're saying, but I'd like to be sure.

You've struck on a truism here, though tangentally.

Many governments have justified their interest (or interference, if you prefer) in marriage as a mechanism by which to increase their native-born population. That being the case, obviously a preference would be given to traditional marriage because, unless there's another Star in the East, SSM cannot, absent external assistance, produce offspring.

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But I've stated there are plenty of Christians who are not opposed to SSM. Why would I be hostile to them? No - I am not hostile toward Christians. I am hostile toward bigots who drape themselves with the mantle of Christianity as a veil to disguise their intolerance.

So Christians can be "good" in your eyes so long as they agree with you on this issue. Gotcha.

I've never said you don't have the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. What I say you don't have a right to do is regulate others' affairs that have nothing to do with your own. What business is it of yours if a couple wants to get married? How would such a marriage have any effect on you, other than offending your personal morality?

Never been a huge fan of emojis, but an "eyeroll" would be oh-so-appropriate right now.

I very explicitly referred to the second half of the Establishment Clause, which reads "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion"...first portion of the Establishment Clause...."nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof"...the second half of the Establishment Clause, which is the relevant part you're ignoring.

A lawsuit forcing an organization to pay for forms of birth control which that organization considers an abortifascent is an explicit and unconstitutional violation of the second part of the Establishment Clause. A lawsuit awarding hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages against the owners of a private business which declines to bake a wedding cake for a SSM couple or to take photographs of the wedding of a SSM couple are similarly unconstitutional violations of the second half of the Establishment Clause. SCOTUS, in their decision to legalize SSM, punted when it came to taking into account such unintended consequences- if they were indeed "unintended"- and will be forced to take up a case based on such challenges to draw a definitive line between the two contradictory sets of civil rights.

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There seems to be a problem with what you write, whether or not your theory is correct. By your definition, a same sex couple in Kentucky is treated differently by the federal government than a same sex couple in California (e.g. federal income taxes, social security benefits, etc.). Is this result constitutional?

I apologize for the confusion, but I assure you that you, I and the other Forum readers are far from the only folks so afflicted.

The answer to your question is, Yes, the SSM couple in Kentucky would be treated differently than the SSM couple in California, and, No, that would not be Constitutional.

However, had the Federal government not taken it upon themselves to interfere in what should be a sacred, as opposed to secular, institution, which it should have done because the power to regulate marriage in any way does not appear in the Constitution, under the Tenth Amendment, the regulation of marriage would have- and should have- been the province of the state. If the Federal government were not involved in marriage regulation, there would be no Federal laws which the admittedly unequal treatment of SSM couples by the states would violate. If a gay couple in Kentucky wanted all the tax advantages, insurance advantages, etc. that California offered, as a result of a statewide referendum that legalized SSM by a vote of the people- and not a 5-4 ruling by nine unelected and unaccountable judges- then that couple would have to move to California in order to access those benefits.

>BUT<, once SCOTUS decided to rule on the issue of SSM, the outcome was legally predictable; SSM would have to be legal either no where or everywhere, because, as you point out, to treat citizens differently is a violation of, among other things, the Fourteenth Amendment. While I personally disagree with their decision, I cannot but accept that, legally, it was the proper ruling....but they should never have taken up the issue at all.

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It's a fair statement to say that "science" has no position on the legal aspects of marriage.
Now, that said, obviously the most favorable circumstance for the continuation of a species which reproduces only through sexual reproduction is a "union", call it whatever you will, between at least one man and one woman, not closely enough related so as to raise the spectre of birth deformities. A civilization which has predominately same-sex "unions" is, unless the opposite sex "unions" are particularly fertile and/or climatic conditions, resources and such are better than the historical average, doomed to eventual extinction.
 

cbalto1927

Active Member
I beg your pardon? I didn't mention pedophilia in any guise.

The point I made was that you might want to be careful about basing your discussion on "Creation and as well Science has pointed out that marriage is basically a union between man and woman" because the biblical portrayal of marriage doesn't look like marriage in the US today, and science has no such finding about marriage being "a union between a man and a woman".

Okay, it looks like we disagree with this issue. I regarded Pedophilia and same-sex marriage the same thing, both are wrong and immoral. As christian, i cant support it, As a human being and feel it as wrong thing to do compared to the right thing to do.
 

DawnLight the Just

Active Member
Whose civil rights am I denying and what right, specifically, am I denying them?
Freedom of religion is a right granted under the Constitution, yet those in favor of forcing the gay agenda on everyone, by virtue of forcing it, removes the right of people to believe as they are led to by God. Pastors are being threatened with lawsuits if they refuse to perform gay marriages, churches are being sued if they don't allow gay marriages to be performed in their building, various cities are demanding notes from pastor's sermons to see if they are preaching about homosexuality being wrong, so they can be fined. People are being sued if they don't do something they disagree with. This is all happening because of intolerance. If someone doesn't want to make a cake for a gay couple, why force them? Walk away (like a normal person would) and go down the block to the next baker. When you force people to do things they don't agree with, then who knows what the outcome will be? Why would you chance the results of a cake you want for your wedding on someone who is being forced into that situation? It's really just ludicrous. But it's really clear that that is not the outcome, forcing someone to make a cake for you, it is really forcing the agenda, because it really is so easy to walk down to the next baker a block away and have them make it, when they would be delighted to do so. So it really does come down to trying to remove someone else's rights.
 

DawnLight the Just

Active Member
Hating someone for being homosexual is bigotry. Opposing SSM is taking action that is in accordance with discrimination, and is also bigotry.
It is only your opinion that people who do not agree with homosexuality or SSM are hateful. It is my opinion that those who do not agree with homosexuality or SSM are much less hateful than those who support it who are hateful against those who don't. Most of the name-calling that goes on in discussions like this, across many discussion boards and platforms such as FB, is done by the liberals. I can't tell you how many times I have been called "idiotic", "moronic", and other such lovely names, just because I disagree. Not because I have done anything that would even suggest anything but love or fellowship for them, but because I disagree in my beliefs. So, yes, you suggesting that others "hate" because they disagree doesn't make it so. It just makes you intolerant.
 

DeletedUser13838

I apologize for the confusion, but I assure you that you, I and the other Forum readers are far from the only folks so afflicted.

The answer to your question is, Yes, the SSM couple in Kentucky would be treated differently than the SSM couple in California, and, No, that would not be Constitutional.

However, had the Federal government not taken it upon themselves to interfere in what should be a sacred, as opposed to secular, institution, which it should have done because the power to regulate marriage in any way does not appear in the Constitution, under the Tenth Amendment, the regulation of marriage would have- and should have- been the province of the state. If the Federal government were not involved in marriage regulation, there would be no Federal laws which the admittedly unequal treatment of SSM couples by the states would violate. If a gay couple in Kentucky wanted all the tax advantages, insurance advantages, etc. that California offered, as a result of a statewide referendum that legalized SSM by a vote of the people- and not a 5-4 ruling by nine unelected and unaccountable judges- then that couple would have to move to California in order to access those benefits.

>BUT<, once SCOTUS decided to rule on the issue of SSM, the outcome was legally predictable; SSM would have to be legal either no where or everywhere, because, as you point out, to treat citizens differently is a violation of, among other things, the Fourteenth Amendment. While I personally disagree with their decision, I cannot but accept that, legally, it was the proper ruling....but they should never have taken up the issue at all.

There is also a broader issue that cannot be determined by the states, immigration. I may be misinformed (again) but to my knowledge, immigration status is solely determined by the federal government. If a SS couple (married legally elsewhere) immigrate, what is the governing body that decides that they are married? In addition, it's also long been shown (at least on TV) that if a citizen marries a non-citizen then the non-citizen can immigrate legally (as long as the marriage is considered valid and not a sham). Again, what governing body is authorized to make that distinction. To my knowledge it is not the states. This is where the federal government needs some definition of marriage.

Plus where you say the federal government does not have the power to regulate marriage, there are many things that the federal government regulates that is not mentioned in the constitution. But I don't think it would be a good idea for the states to operate their own air forces.
 

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
There is also a broader issue that cannot be determined by the states, immigration. I may be misinformed (again) but to my knowledge, immigration status is solely determined by the federal government. If a SS couple (married legally elsewhere) immigrate, what is the governing body that decides that they are married? In addition, it's also long been shown (at least on TV) that if a citizen marries a non-citizen then the non-citizen can immigrate legally (as long as the marriage is considered valid and not a sham). Again, what governing body is authorized to make that distinction. To my knowledge it is not the states. This is where the federal government needs some definition of marriage.

Under Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution: "The Congress shall have power.....To establish a uniform rule of naturalization....", so there is little doubt that the Federal government does have Constitutional power to pass immigration laws and, even more importantly, the obligation to enforce them- something the Obama Administration has not and will not do. The argument now is over whether the states can step in to enforce existing Federal immigration law in the absence of will on the part of the Federal government to do so, and those efforts have met with mixed success at best and with the rejection of the state's ability to add to existing law.

As far as whether a SS couple married legally overseas would be recognized as having a legal marriage in this country.....prior to the Obergefell decision, I honestly do not know. Now, of course, it is moot. You are correct that legal status, if not citizenship, is conferred on the spouse of a legal US citizen (and, I would argue, it needs to be easier for the immigrant spouse to apply for citizenship. there are not many reasonable arguments concerning expansion of legal immigration- and none concerning expanding illegal immigration- but one of them is that the legal process of applying for citizenship is too costly, too cumbersome and too lengthy).

Plus where you say the federal government does not have the power to regulate marriage, there are many things that the federal government regulates that is not mentioned in the constitution. But I don't think it would be a good idea for the states to operate their own air forces.

Well, the same portion of the Constitution (Article 1, Section 8) empowers the Federal government to "provide for the common defense", so the responsibility for our military defense is a legitimate exercise in Federal power. Now, that is not to say that the states cannot have their own version of an "air force" in a National Guard, but, again, it is subject to the rules governing the military, not that of the states (although a state governor may call out the National Guard in cases of emergency, typically in response to natural disasters).

The Founders, in their amazing wisdom, were very clear about the powers they saw as being in the purview of a Federal government. The debate at the time was between those calling for a small government of limited duties and powers and those favoring a large government of practically unlimited powers.

Some things, it seems, never change.

But, in the 1790s, those favoring smaller government won out, though the opposing forces have never stopped trying to expand the Federal government's role in all our lives, the end result being the bloated behemoth we have today. Today's Social Democrats are blissfully unaware of the existence of any limitations at all ("I've got a pen and a phone.") on the Federal government, despite the very clear language of the Tenth Amendment.
 

cbalto1927

Active Member
It is only your opinion that people who do not agree with homosexuality or SSM are hateful. It is my opinion that those who do not agree with homosexuality or SSM are much less hateful than those who support it who are hateful against those who don't. Most of the name-calling that goes on in discussions like this, across many discussion boards and platforms such as FB, is done by the liberals. I can't tell you how many times I have been called "idiotic", "moronic", and other such lovely names, just because I disagree. Not because I have done anything that would even suggest anything but love or fellowship for them, but because I disagree in my beliefs. So, yes, you suggesting that others "hate" because they disagree doesn't make it so. It just makes you intolerant.

Agreed, I dont hate homosexuals but i do disagree on many levels that we should make policy on same sex marriages or even endorse the behavior. Every moral fiber being inside me knows this type of behavior is not only immoral but very wrong. It unnatural if you will.
 

DeletedUser10415

Every moral fiber being inside me knows this type of behavior is not only immoral but very wrong. It unnatural if you will.

What would be your definition of natural then, I wonder, as hundreds of other species engage in homosexual behavior. Not that sex has anything to do with marriage, mind you.

Proof on that "hundreds" figure, in case you're interested in learning something about nature:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
 
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