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good producing GB's for current age production. where is the Mars Ore?

Discussion in 'Questions' started by wangeaux, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. wangeaux

    wangeaux New Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2014
    FOE, you have made these GB's basically useless. I have four of them
    St. Marks, Lighthouse, Dresden and royal Albert., making lower age goods for lower age good production.
    Need to update this.
     
  2. Clara Osgood

    Clara Osgood Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Worlds:
    Mount Killmore, Noarsil, Rugnir, Sinerania
    All GBs producing goods do so for your current Age goods until you reach Modern Era, at which point they begin producing unrefined goods (except for Stargazer, which produces previous Age goods). Always been that way & I see no reason to change it for Mars. Mars has some new challenges - try learning to deal with it instead of looking for an Easy Button.
     
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  3. xivarmy

    xivarmy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2017
    Their point is those ages from modern era to virtual future era 'unrefined goods' had a meaning as they were the raw feedstock for current era goods via goods buildings. If someone's actually still playing the game that way, then in Mars the Arctic Future goods produced are no longer of any use to them (Mars goods are refined from Mars Ore if you're using goods buildings still, not Arctic Future goods).

    The top players stopped using goods buildings long ago - so it's nothing new for them, just a different age of goods to sell. It would make sense though to revisit the basic Goods GBs that everyone builds and ask the question of how to make them continue making sense for 'regular' players. Ages where things instantly lose value once you've moved beyond them create all kinds of problems for the game (FE->AF and making treasury buildings worthless because of no new GvG maps being one such previous discontinuity - a great deal of players in GvG guilds refusing to leave FE because of it which isn't what Inno should want to encourage with all the effort they put in to developing shiny new ages)
     
  4. Agent327

    Agent327 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    You do know you can delete them?

    There are many buildings, GB or not, that get outdated when you move on. You are supposed to deal with it and not whine about it.
     
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  5. Clara Osgood

    Clara Osgood Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Mount Killmore, Noarsil, Rugnir, Sinerania
    And my point is that Inno purposefully designed Mars differently in that regard. Looking to "update" those GBs with regards to their goods output (as the OP suggests) with Mars in mind amounts to wanting an Easy Button.


    "Regular" players will always have a use for unrefined goods from GBs - for refined goods production in each Age (except mars) & to a certain extent for tech tree/maps goods requirements (which need goods up to 3 Ages prior to current Age). While using goods buildings to produce goods is by no means the most efficient way to obtain current Age goods, a great many "regular" players do so to some degree. The introduction of refined vs unrefined goods concept beginning in ME was another deliberate Age-progression challenge by Inno.

    Of the only ~30% of all FoE players (referring to those using PC) with access to GvG, only a very small fraction of them play GvG. Additionally, GvG was designed with thought that FoE Ages were going to stop at FE. Inno then intentionally didn't change GvG to accommodate all the Ages that they afterwards did create - no new GvG maps (other than All Ages map). Thus, no need for later Ages goods beyond FE for GvG. Inno has recently stated they won't make any changes to GvG ever (except trying to fix few stability issues if possible). Given all that, Inno isn't going to change treasury goods GBs' outputs to accommodate GvGers. And GvGers will continue to stay in whatever Ages suits their guild best, quite likely never going beyond FE for most).
    (Note: I mean no personal offense to all those GvGers, just discussing the facts of what's going on).

    As for treasury goods GBs in general... well, the Age of Hyperleveling GBs does make the vast amount of treasury goods produced rather irrelevant. Far, far more is donated by those GBs than a guild could ever use beyond GvG needs. Perhaps some aspects of upcoming Guild Battlegrounds will change that - time will tell. If not, so be it.
     
  6. xivarmy

    xivarmy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2017
    Given that refining goods was not the optimum way to go about it in the first place I wouldn't call an update to them an "Easy Button". I don't even know what that update should look like - I do think it's a reasonable complaint though from someone that wasn't exploiting the optimum strategies in the game to begin with that their treasured GBs should continue to do something useful.

    You have far more confidence in the developers thinking things through than I do these days ;) Back in Modern Era they certainly were - it was becoming a thing that people were making all their goods from great buildings and goods buildings were being outdated as a result. Wanting to continue encouraging people to build balanced cities they nerfed great buildings to only producing the unrefined goods so you'd still need refined goods buildings - and they updated the great buildings to only produce unrefined so that they still served a use while goods buildings remained important. Fast forward to Future Era and they were no longer thinking through consequences and added the Arc which was the beginning of the end for 'building balanced cities' - what they've done in Mars does not hamper the new most efficient ways of making goods at all (churning out goods through Chateau boosted quests). All it does is outdate a use of great buildings by a 'regular' less efficient strategy. If 'unrefined' goods are losing meaning in Mars, then they ought to consider another transition like they did in ME to something still usable directly by the player - I don't know what that transition could be (and i suspect that's why such a transition hasn't happened) but there should be something. This is not an easy button. This is not for the most efficient strategy which honestly hasn't gave a crap about unrefined goods production for years now other than as goods to sell.

    I agree that GvGers are a tiny portion of the game - BUT they kept the goods market fluid because they always needed goods of varying ages in huge quantities. Arc was the first thing that broke that by enabling hyperlevelling while being a treasury building itself - it also enabled all the top players having a hyperlevelled Chateau which pretty much solved their need for their own age goods without trading. But the lack of AF+ maps was also a major factor as the top players who make the most goods were then making useless goods that noone wanted to trade. This then encouraged people to just camp FE or lower where their treasury buildings *did something* and rely on huge attack bonuses to help out on AA or to just ignore AA - and generally guilds wind up setup with arcs in all the ages they actually fight so they don't need to manually donate anything anymore.

    At any rate, sum total of this is the changes in behavior these developments caused impacted the market of *everyone* in the game, not just the GvGers - as now almost noone trades anymore. Finally, they juiced up both event frequency and event reward power such that even if you're not a quester there's a good chance most of your goods are coming from event buildings, not goods buildings ; and homogenized neighborhoods so everyone in it is the same age - so now really almost noone trades anymore.

    If you want a guide on how to destroy an in-game economy, Inno certainly has the credentials on that now!

    ----

    It's possible battlegrounds might change this. They've certainly acknowledged that it's a goal of theirs to make it so battlegrounds will soak up overstocked treasuries and eventually provide scarcity in goods again. But given that for the longest time they insisted that GE unlock costs was *enough* of a use for those ages in the treasury, I have my doubts they'll hit the mark needed. Even if it is successful, it's been YEARS that they've left the treasury mess and assorted economy flaws in place.

    ----

    Now for those last few people who still are running goods buildings, engage in trades, and kept a 'real' city that's not just plugged up with event and great buildings, they've invalidated the use of unrefined goods GBs. Did this really seem like the playstyle that needed nerfing and a 'new challenge'? Are THESE the players that are breaking the game?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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  7. Clara Osgood

    Clara Osgood Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Mount Killmore, Noarsil, Rugnir, Sinerania
    Refining goods concept was never meant to be an efficient method of going about things (no way it could be). Seems it was Inno's attempt to add challenge & increased effort into advancing in ME & beyond (a deliberate inefficiency, so to speak). I suppose the method of obtaining mars ore may be Inno's way of moving bit away from that concept, doing something different (good, bad or otherwise, I can't say).

    But the OP is in SA Mars, specifically asking for a goods producing GB to produce mars ore. As no GB has ever produced current Age goods from ME onward, that is an Easy Button request IMHO.


    Totally agree. Inno has been less than stellar with alot of their long-term planning ideas.


    Agreed. I hope it provides much more use for treasury goods. Not convinced it will use remotely close to all the hyperleveled GBs provide, though. I doubt that's what they're realistically shooting for anyways despite what they say. Unfortunately, I just don't think Inno cares that much about the huge treasury goods surpluses some guilds have built up.


    As you'd mentioned, the Age of the Arc certainly changed how players approached subsequent things Inno implemented for the future of their game. Unfortunately, Inno never appeared to adapt well in response. I've no idea exactly what such a thing would entail.
     
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  8. xivarmy

    xivarmy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2017
    It was meant to be efficient when it was released - by virtue of limitations of other ways to produce goods at the time. I'm not even sure the Oasis was out yet and that only makes 5 a day in 12 squares if it was. Questing was available, but taking a Chateau past 10 was *hard* - due to far more limited FP and blueprints. At level 10 using quests for goods was viable - but not strictly speaking better than just running goods buildings, just different - AND it tended to still require city space (such as a city full of Hatters) since without Arc endlessly cycling FP wasn't really a thing.

    Mars Ore isn't really a current age good - there is some need for it in the tree directly (probably to make people who will get all the other goods via quests engage with the new continent gimmick some), but primarily it's supposed to just be a precursor to goods. For many people, having the GBs make mars ore would in fact be a strict downgrade since they AREN'T refining goods, and can't do anything with excess mars ore. It is in many ways a repeat of the 'no AF map' problem - only spread over a significantly larger portion of people. People won't be tearing down their Lighthouse or St Mark's for the most part - so instead they'll make lots of AF goods - the only outlet for which is convincing more people to build Arctic Orangery or running the Arctic Harbor when you don't have anything to do with the promethium. Perhaps negotiation minigames on mars should be focused on Arctic goods so they're a key part of the pipeline to make the mars ore that makes the goods.
     
  9. Clara Osgood

    Clara Osgood Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Mount Killmore, Noarsil, Rugnir, Sinerania
    Players griped about the strange new way the not-really-goods Promethium & orichalcum had to be obtained, wanting something easier/quicker. And here they are (not just this thread, but others over the past few weeks) complaining about the same thing for not-really-goods mars ore.

    Inno didn't change GBs' goods outputs to accommodate those 1st two, & I see no reason for them to do so now for this newest one. Folks need to deal with it (irregardless of if they like/hate it) instead of asking the game to be changed. If someone coped with Prom. & Ori. without GB changes, then they're more than capable of figuring out how to manage mars ore too.

    After their original release, were major changes made directly to arctic harbor or oceanic terminal to significantly improve their not-really-goods amounts obtained? Were past Ages goods allowed to be used in any manner to help get more Pro/Ori then could be obtained otherwise?
     
  10. xivarmy

    xivarmy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2017
    promethium and orichalcum were twice-refined goods. and as they were simply further down the chain no changes were needed (i.e. you turn arctic future goods into prom, not make them from it). and since you still needed contemporary goods if you wanted to run AF goods buildings, you in theory could need contemporary goods still.

    the difference with mars ore is you make the goods from it instead of arctic future goods. Hence your GBs making arctic future goods now from a self-use perspective may as well be making nothing. Do I expect this to change? not really - but that's no reason to play white-knight for the developers. OP made a fair point - even it was misplaced in this section of the forum (this wasn't really a question - belongs in the SAM feedback. Probably would've ignored the post if you didn't decide to rip OP a new one for no good reason)
     
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  11. Clara Osgood

    Clara Osgood Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Mount Killmore, Noarsil, Rugnir, Sinerania
    How promethium, orichalcum & mars ore are specifically utilized/etc is irrelevant. What's important is that each of them belong in a unique category compared to all other tech tree/cmap requirements. They are that special something needed in those uppermost Ages which exclusively requires playing an extra game aspect (arctic harbor, oceanic terminal, mars ore mining or whatever it's called) to obtain it - can't be gotten from other players via trading, nor from direct output from other buildings.

    The OP specifically wants GB outputs to be changed to directly produce mars ore. As I stated previously, I consider that an Easy Button. GBs don't directly produce promethium. GBs don't directly produce orichalcum. I don't believe GBs should be changed now to directly produce mars ore.

    I would've ignored the OP post if it had been in mars feedback thread. But since it was made as it's own thread, I gave my opinion about it - just as others are free to do as well.


    What you keep bringing into the discussion -- finding more uses for goods produced from GBs, particularly the uppermost Ages -- is a separate issue entirely (and one that I'm not referring to in my responses to OP)


    By golly, a hybrid version of the "you must work for Inno" argument. Clever.
     

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