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Guild goods vs. freeloading

Cyrus the Adequate

Active Member
Question:

About how much in daily goods is a reasonable expectation from a guild? At what point is a player "freeloading", i.e. it costs more to keep them then they are paying in?

A lot of guilds state requirements like "L80 Arc + L8 SoH + L20 Obs"....but the reality is that if you have a bunch of other buildings that spin off daily guild goods, you may actually be contributing a bunch outside of those basics.

How much does this depend on the guild's activity level in GBG?

Thoughts?
 

Xenosaur

Well-Known Member
It's very dependent. The more aggressive your guild wants to "play" in GbG (meaning: how many sectors you want to swap each 4 hours, especially on the waterfall (larger) map...) it can cost a guild doing this every 4 hours about 100,000 goods from the treasury PER DAY - or 1 million goods/10 day season. This 100K/day is a rough gauge for you swapping the map with someone else (1 other guild), that's one of the most costly scenarios. If you're swapping 1/2 of the map (North/South with a swap partner guild, while East/West is done by 2 OTHER guilds...), it's more reasonable that 100K/day.

Yes there are many swap designs. Serpentine, Checkerboard, Quadrant, etc. Some are more costly than others, and it also depends on how deep you choose to go toward the edge of the board. Most swaps concentrate on Ring 1-3, and a bit of 4. The less you swap actively, the less expense you incur.

As Inno is constantly changing GbG to surreptitiously remove buildable slots (to create more attrition for players), so this 100K cost could have cooled a bit. But those number were accurate to the GbG "original/old map" and held up when the new map (waterfall) was introduced. I found 100K/day as consistently quoted math for many of the Sr. Diamond guilds I played in, and what leadership communicated about their own treasury draw.

You can't do this type of Sr. Diamond class playing as a guild, without understanding and strategically planning where your input comes from. If you choose to use an EI GbG game design, (EI = Era Islands goods generation), much of the problem evaporates, because you move to both known production, and known draw. Much easier to manage that, mathematically.

Why? Simply because when GBG starts, it checks each member of the guild for era. GbG WILL NOT allow goods to be taken from the treasury for ANY buildings or use in an ERA - IF there are 0 members of the guild are in that ERA. If just 1 member is in an era, that era is now fair game for treasury draw for building costs in GbG.

So, with that in mind, here's what Era Islands did.

EI comes in 3 classes:
1) Perfect - all guild members are in the SAME era
2a) Strong: Guild members choose just a few (1-4) eras, with 4 members as a minimum in EACH era.
2b) Managed: Guild members suggest they'd like to move UP-ERA, and their timing to do so is optimzed in the EI framework.

When anyone, can be in any era, at any time, you're potentially increasing the risk of your swaps stopping because you can't fund the buildings if you have randomly obtained a serious draw for an SC from an underfunded type of good, each 4 hours.

In EI - an era can have at a safe minimum, 3-4 people depending on the robustness of the GB generation, and their trinkets (those smaller non-GB buildings that make guild goods...).

Trinkets, surprisingly, added nearly 23K goods each day of the 120K we made each day, in a mature guild of 51 people with the lower EI era being Industrial.

Here's a quick snapshot of our 51 people, and their generation by buildings - on 1/3/22:

1/3/22Arc + OBS = 90,510Arc, Obs + Atom = 95,860Trinkets = 23,505Total/day 119,365

Just so you know or conversely, as you might expect..., the multiple Level 8 SOH's in each members city made 19,000 of the 23,505 each day (80%). We were SOH heavy, for sure. Level 7 SOH's delivered about 1200 goods more, as well.

An example of our TRINKET list (at that time...)

SoH
Airship
Jade Statue
Royal BH
Fiore Village
Golden Crops
Great Elephant
Citadel

PS: This is actual GB/trinket data/day. It doesn't include ANY voluntary goods manually donated, which was an rough average BOOST of 2-3K more (over time) to the 119,365/day (meaning, 121-122K/day). Member in our guild were EXCEEDINGLY selfless in that regard - always dropping in goods to the treasury, tacitly.
 
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The Lady Redneck

Well-Known Member
How much does this depend on the guild's activity level in GBG?

it does not just depend on the guilds activity in GBG. Your guild will probably also do GE (only the first level is free) guild goods are taken to pay for levels 2,3 and 4. If your Guild also does GvG Guild goods and medals are taken to cover the costs of that also. If your guild is really active in all the battle areas of the game, there will be times when no matter how many high level GBs and other buildings every member has providing guild goods, when the guild will require its members to dig even deeper and give extra from their own stock.
 

Ebeondi Asi

Well-Known Member
Last year someone did stats for GbG and the cost (back when there were a lot more slots for camps) per season 2.1 million to 2.7 million Goods The cost per player in that large Guild were 2,300 goods per day every day. (Season lasts eleven days the cost per player all days, no days off)
That does not include GvG Goods costs.
So the average player who is in a Guild dong a checkerboard with one other Guild through the GbG season needs to have a Level 100 Arc, plus a level 80 Observatory, and one other level 80 Treasury Goods producer. (either Atom or AI Core)
If the player does not have the 2300 Goods a day going to the Treasury, they are "freeloading" off the Guild**
** if the Guild is not doing a lot in GbG then the numbers may be much smaller!
Some Guilds require various Treasury Goods making 'bits' from players. requiring an Obs. an Arc.. some SOH etc. Some Guilds the top players add enough extra to cover small and new players. A lot of Guilds have players making personal donations everyday to the Treasury in addition to GBs etc.

As for Treasury. The general amount each and every Good shoud be at least 100,000 to 300,000 to be OK in GbG. There is no limit, and some guilds have millions of each Goods!
GvG has wholly different needs. and the Era matters a lot. Since a Guild can do just one or just a few Eras there in GvG and the Goods are from that Era only. Then Medals for the top AA age.
 

Mor-Rioghain

Well-Known Member
It's nice to see some actual math done on these guild goods requirements for a change! I've seen that most top tier guilds require 2500+ goods passive production per day and still expect manual donations in heavy-exchange BG seasons. (These are guilds with heavy presence on all GvG era maps). It seems reasonable enough unless you take into consideration the trimming down of the old "Monster Guilds," (70+ members) to include many casual players with only 1 treasury GB at L80 or higher. I was skeptical but not overtly so as I have been in charge of treasury expenditures in 65+ guilds since before the BG feature was introduced but took a break from Diamond league since this last Spring and was quite surprised to see a major upwards shift of expenditures all the while seeing fewer building slots available in the last few months. (I hadn't yet realized that there were proposals to cap attrition and am still struggling with the rippling effect of this in terms of increased expense to the treasury in building costs). So, nice to see some extrapolated figures regarding siege expenses in regards to SR D-League+Era-Specific qualifiers. Kudos and thank you! Nice work on the charts. (It's somewhat reassuring to see that the top guilds in worlds that I'm not prime in are not gouging prospective guildies with their requested treasury gbs/donations). Restores my faith.
 

Sledgie

Active Member
Last year someone did stats for GbG and the cost (back when there were a lot more slots for camps) per season 2.1 million to 2.7 million Goods The cost per player in that large Guild were 2,300 goods per day every day. (Season lasts eleven days the cost per player all days, no days off)
That does not include GvG Goods costs.
So the average player who is in a Guild dong a checkerboard with one other Guild through the GbG season needs to have a Level 100 Arc, plus a level 80 Observatory, and one other level 80 Treasury Goods producer. (either Atom or AI Core)
If the player does not have the 2300 Goods a day going to the Treasury, they are "freeloading" off the Guild**
** if the Guild is not doing a lot in GbG then the numbers may be much smaller!
Some Guilds require various Treasury Goods making 'bits' from players. requiring an Obs. an Arc.. some SOH etc. Some Guilds the top players add enough extra to cover small and new players. A lot of Guilds have players making personal donations everyday to the Treasury in addition to GBs etc.

As for Treasury. The general amount each and every Good shoud be at least 100,000 to 300,000 to be OK in GbG. There is no limit, and some guilds have millions of each Goods!
GvG has wholly different needs. and the Era matters a lot. Since a Guild can do just one or just a few Eras there in GvG and the Goods are from that Era only. Then Medals for the top AA age.
Since there are a few days off from the season, I divided the total number estimated for the season by 70 players and 14 days to come up with about 1850 goods/player to support an 11 day GBG season. This took into account keeping some camps and not building in every slot.
 

Mor-Rioghain

Well-Known Member
Since there are a few days off from the season, I divided the total number estimated for the season by 70 players and 14 days to come up with about 1850 goods/player to support an 11 day GBG season. This took into account keeping some camps and not building in every slot.
Seems about right and that supports the notion that approximately 2500 goods per member would address the needs of full sc support.
 

Pericles the Lion

Well-Known Member
Seems about right and that supports the notion that approximately 2500 goods per member would address the needs of full sc support.
On average, the amount of goods needed for full SC support is a fixed amount depending on the number of guilds swapping (2?, 4?) and for how long (11 days?, 5.5?). This being the case, the amount of goods per member depends on the number of members. Maybe it's 2,500, perhaps more, perhaps less. It's an amount that each guild has to calculate based on its own set of circumstances.
 

Mor-Rioghain

Well-Known Member
On average, the amount of goods needed for full SC support is a fixed amount depending on the number of guilds swapping (2?, 4?) and for how long (11 days?, 5.5?). This being the case, the amount of goods per member depends on the number of members. Maybe it's 2,500, perhaps more, perhaps less. It's an amount that each guild has to calculate based on its own set of circumstances.
Still a good target # for guilds recruiting new members or for ones looking to move into diamond league, for instance. After all you could ask "what is full sc support?" It's not like we know just when we're going be handed a map with only say, 3 - 5 3-bldg slots. Such a map would actually require less support. I was just gratified to finally some some thought put into the number of expected goods rather than the usual "L80 Arc/Obs/etc" stuff that you see so often. I may not be exceptional at the math myself but appreciate the charts to see how these numbers are calculated.
 

Darkest.Knight

Well-Known Member
Doing a solo guild I don't have much to worry about. Moving up to SAT makes GbG tougher, goods are in short supply for now but that will all pass in time.
 

Xenosaur

Well-Known Member
Not trying to necro an old thread here, but amazing work @Xerosaur ! Thank you :)

Thank you - it was a great intellectual exercise to co-design the Era Island implementation idea, track it to determine if it worked, and then get 60 absolutely great people to make it happen exactly as we planned. As well, I enjoyed writing all the variable ranged data analysis tools to aid in studying this... :) ;)

1693004458231.png
 
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Jackshat

Active Member
Fwiw, we're shooting for Arc-92, Obs-109, and Hyd-36 as base targets for passive Treasury donations. The relative fp costs are about the same. I include AIC in my city for a bit more oomph.
 

Athanofthered

Active Member
I'm getting all four of the guildgoods buildings to lvl eighty (arc to lvl 180) hydra included more guildgoods equals more fights and competitive edge so it benefits everyone in the end.
 

Ebeondi Asi

Well-Known Member
Fwiw, we're shooting for Arc-92, Obs-109, and Hyd-36 as base targets for passive Treasury donations. The relative fp costs are about the same. I include AIC in my city for a bit more oomph.
I would not raise Observatory over 80 since it has no added benefits! The Arc and Hydra have great added benefits worth the extra cost to level them up additional levels instead.
I build AICore up to get some use from it, now all it does is give Guild Goods but as you say woth keeping just for that.
 
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