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Random Thoughts

PJS299

Well-Known Member
Just a place for some random thoughts.
Here, I'll start!

100 SAJM goods will get you 52,428,800 BA goods. That's pretty crazy! I don't think many people would be able to accept that though… 26214400 IA for 52,428,800 BA anybody?

What's the most amount of goods that you have?
 

Ebeondi Asi

Well-Known Member
100 SAJM goods will get you 52,428,800 BA goods. That's pretty crazy! I don't think many people would be able to accept that though… 26214400 IA for 52,428,800 BA anybody?
The problem is actually trading them down. There are very few players wanting to trade up. Almost all players are trading down.** So a long slow difficult road ahead of anyone trying to do that kind of challenge. Though if you have years.. Eventually you might accomplish the task.
The second problem is by the time you get down to the lower Eras doing trades. You realize the lower Eras Goods are worthless for most players Aside from filling in gaps in the Treasury.

**Most players want pevious Era goods. Far more than want next Era Goods for Research needs.
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
Just a place for some random thoughts.
Here, I'll start!

100 SAJM goods will get you 52,428,800 BA goods. That's pretty crazy! I don't think many people would be able to accept that though… 26214400 IA for 52,428,800 BA anybody?

What's the most amount of goods that you have?
The fault is in the assumption that 1 per 2 previous is the actual ratio - which when you get to large quantities you start to seriously pose the question : but how much do you really value 1 age up goods? (and the answer is not going to be twice as much). Small volume you may be able to get whatever ratio you want from someone who wants that good now if you're the only one offering enough of what they want.

At times in this game's past various market pressures have gone so far as to invert that ratio for the last age - when AF was the last age you had many people willing to trade 2 AF for 1 FE. We had lots of AF and not much to do with them - and wanted FE or lower for GvG. It happened again to some extent in OF for AF goods when we'd sold off our stocks supplying people with orangeries and there was more demand.

Now those were pretty extreme circumstances - but there's no saying it can't arise again if there's say a lot of SAJM players negotiating GE5 and a lack of SAV supply.

One interesting point is how the game itself values them. When you spend a good it gains you points based on the era of good.

Bronze Age2.5
Iron Age3.0
Early Middle Ages3.5
High Middle Ages4.0
Late Middle Ages4.5
Colonial Age5.0
Industrial Age5.5
Progressive Era6.0
Modern Era11.5
Postmodern Era12.5
Contemporary Era13.5
Tomorrow Era19
Future Era21.0
Arctic Future22.5
Oceanic Future29.0
Virtual Future33
Space Age Mars37.5
SAAB44.5
SAV49.5
SAJM55.0

There are some oddities about this - modern era goods *are* valued at almost twice progressive era goods because of the refinement process - that pretty much noone uses anymore - a modern era good's value comes from 6.5 it would be itself based on normal progression to that point plus it adds the 5.0 in for the colonial good it "consumes". Each additional refinement stage sees another jump similar to that (CE->TE; AF->OF).

But based on this 100 SAJM goods are worth ~2200 Bronze Age goods :) If we try to smooth this out for an even progression between ages, 22^(1/19) ~= 1.177 as the geometric average for two adjacent ages. And I think a lot more people might be willing to trade up if this was the norm - that the previous age good is *almost* as valuable as the current age.
 

stymie of Suwannee

Active Member
Whenever I’m trying to move a lot of goods down, I sweeten the deal by skipping an age, 2:1, and people slurp em up. The problem is you drain all the goods from everyone in contact and it’s rare to find someone producing bulk in the earliest ages. Or at least that wanna share.
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
So - question to you @xivarmy , are those numbers to the right in your chart just the point value or can they be used as the ratio?
Those numbers are from the ranking system page on the wiki we're not allowed to link to - they've been kept up to date as new ages were added - though i don't know if it's by testing, data mining, or official sources.

The official wiki we can link to does have some of them, but ironically has not been kept as well up to date as the unofficial one (missing Jupiter Moon) ;)


Those numbers are simply the points per good of that age. but if you wanted to declare that your rate you accept you'd simply divide the numbers for the two ages of interest and that'd give you the ratio. i.e. SAJM for SAV = 55/49.5 = 1.11.

I personally prefer the idea of keeping it steady rather than have it bounce around though - so if I were going to use the premise of those points as the basis for what I try to trade at I'd take the 1.177 geometric average, round it up to a nice even 1.2 that's easy to make trades at (i.e. 600 for 500 for adjacent ages or vice versa) and use that :)
 

Ebeondi Asi

Well-Known Member
Other notions have been put forward, Claimed by some Guilds to be the 'only ratio allowed" (based on the theoretical costs as determined by claiming the cost to make the goods should be the determining factor with other claiminghe size of the Goods building shoud be a factor.. .) within the Guild. and worked for awhile, A few years back that idea was gaining a bit of traction then floundered.
. However it has become (Again!) the standard of 2:1 up 1:2 down.
Naturally anyone is free to try any set of alternative (as long as they are possible within the rules of the Market!)
No problem. I am certain some players will jump at the chance to get a better deal. And a good sized subset of those will be thrilled to take them at the better ratio, and then sell them at the standard 1:2 or 2:1
Which will gradually sabotage the future of such a deal ..
IMO it happened before and it will happen again.
So convince all your friends and Guildmates to try it out. Start a movement! ;)
 
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xivarmy

Well-Known Member
Of course to find the "true" value of goods, one should setup your market as an arbitrage center.

Essentially you set up trades for each pair of goods - in each direction, both slightly "unfair" in your evaluation.

If both clear, you profit, and your ratio must be close to correct - people looking to make that trade now are happy to take either half of it.

If neither clears there's a lack of volume/interest, but again your ratio may be close to correct (noone thought either of those trades was a steal worth grabbing).

If only one side clears, then you pull your trade ratio a little further in that direction.
 

Ebeondi Asi

Well-Known Member
Of course to find the "true" value of goods, one should setup your market as an arbitrage center.

Essentially you set up trades for each pair of goods - in each direction, both slightly "unfair" in your evaluation.

If both clear, you profit, and your ratio must be close to correct - people looking to make that trade now are happy to take either half of it.

If neither clears there's a lack of volume/interest, but again your ratio may be close to correct (noone thought either of those trades was a steal worth grabbing).

If only one side clears, then you pull your trade ratio a little further in that direction.
That would work in a fully open market. However the market is very limited to Players you are either Hood, Friends, or Guild. Plus those players needs 'at the moment' and what Era they are in.
So the market anyone sees is always skewed one way or another. Plus the Game skewing of the Market dominated by the two main needs: Previous Era goods. and Goods for Research.
The Goods needed for Previous Era far outweigh any other market need.
And the fact many players are constantly 'trading down" To the extent there are always many thousands of trade down trades, and very few trade up trades. Then the 1:1 trades within Era Goods for Quests.
The trade down dominate so much that many trade up are grabbed to hoard. (Plus favorable trade up will be hoarded)

My own experience is that 'fair' trades 1:2 2:1 one Era up or down trade just as fast (over a long time of trading) than special more favorable trades. What matters much more is consistency. Trading all the time every week for months matters way more than any favorable one time trade. So players looking for a trade know you will have it in the market.
 

DreadfulCadillac

Well-Known Member
The fault is in the assumption that 1 per 2 previous is the actual ratio - which when you get to large quantities you start to seriously pose the question : but how much do you really value 1 age up goods? (and the answer is not going to be twice as much). Small volume you may be able to get whatever ratio you want from someone who wants that good now if you're the only one offering enough of what they want.

At times in this game's past various market pressures have gone so far as to invert that ratio for the last age - when AF was the last age you had many people willing to trade 2 AF for 1 FE. We had lots of AF and not much to do with them - and wanted FE or lower for GvG. It happened again to some extent in OF for AF goods when we'd sold off our stocks supplying people with orangeries and there was more demand.

Now those were pretty extreme circumstances - but there's no saying it can't arise again if there's say a lot of SAJM players negotiating GE5 and a lack of SAV supply.

One interesting point is how the game itself values them. When you spend a good it gains you points based on the era of good.

Bronze Age2.5
Iron Age3.0
Early Middle Ages3.5
High Middle Ages4.0
Late Middle Ages4.5
Colonial Age5.0
Industrial Age5.5
Progressive Era6.0
Modern Era11.5
Postmodern Era12.5
Contemporary Era13.5
Tomorrow Era19
Future Era21.0
Arctic Future22.5
Oceanic Future29.0
Virtual Future33
Space Age Mars37.5
SAAB44.5
SAV49.5
SAJM55.0

There are some oddities about this - modern era goods *are* valued at almost twice progressive era goods because of the refinement process - that pretty much noone uses anymore - a modern era good's value comes from 6.5 it would be itself based on normal progression to that point plus it adds the 5.0 in for the colonial good it "consumes". Each additional refinement stage sees another jump similar to that (CE->TE; AF->OF).

But based on this 100 SAJM goods are worth ~2200 Bronze Age goods :) If we try to smooth this out for an even progression between ages, 22^(1/19) ~= 1.177 as the geometric average for two adjacent ages. And I think a lot more people might be willing to trade up if this was the norm - that the previous age good is *almost* as valuable as the current age.
This shook my worldview of FOE trading for a second there - I've got to take a step back and re-evaluate now, lol. This might change my trading strat a bit, so thank you!
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
That would work in a fully open market. However the market is very limited to Players you are either Hood, Friends, or Guild. Plus those players needs 'at the moment' and what Era they are in.
So the market anyone sees is always skewed one way or another. Plus the Game skewing of the Market dominated by the two main needs: Previous Era goods. and Goods for Research.
The Goods needed for Previous Era far outweigh any other market need.
And the fact many players are constantly 'trading down" To the extent there are always many thousands of trade down trades, and very few trade up trades. Then the 1:1 trades within Era Goods for Quests.
The trade down dominate so much that many trade up are grabbed to hoard. (Plus favorable trade up will be hoarded)

My own experience is that 'fair' trades 1:2 2:1 one Era up or down trade just as fast (over a long time of trading) than special more favorable trades. What matters much more is consistency. Trading all the time every week for months matters way more than any favorable one time trade. So players looking for a trade know you will have it in the market.
My most recent experience is that trades mostly do not happen on established servers. But I haven't tried since the GE changes to know if that jumpstarted the dead market where pretty much noone needs to trade and the only reason they do trade is mostly to clear a quick quest.

I think the insistence on 1:2 downtrades is one of the culprits in dissuading people from thinking trading up is a legitimate option. But being as that's what's usually posted, I think people likely grab what's there if they absolutely need it now. And then try to avoid needing it in the future because it makes more sense to age up and make it yourself than keep trading at that rate. Or to buy it with FP instead of simple trades. If at some point you want someone to be for instance happy sitting in SAV and making the goods SAJM players need, you're probably going to have to pay them a rate that makes them happy rather than a rate that makes you happy :p
 

DreadfulCadillac

Well-Known Member
Alot of players make downtrades more appealing these days (including myself). To counter the 1:2 problem, I will jump several eras at a time in my trades.
 

thathurts

Member
My random thought is that you never have anything positive to say about INNO or FOE, yet you still play.
so true i am about to poof my city now that inno is in the habit of ripping us off new event chest cost 29.99 in canada but they only charge 14.99 in the states not eve in line with the exchange rate
 

The North Wind

Active Member
so true i am about to poof my city now that inno is in the habit of ripping us off new event chest cost 29.99 in canada but they only charge 14.99 in the states not eve in line with the exchange rate
$22.26 USD is quite a lot

I hope your endeavors post-FoE are memorable & fun

But, if you dont actually quit after making this post, then where was the relevancy at all ( not that my post has any relevance )
If your trying to make a point, make a post about this topic instead of going by emotion threatening to quit. ( although that narrative has been spewed so many times its meaningless now )

It sucks that the conversion rates for you are terrible, but dont threaten to quit unless you actually are planning on quitting
if you do quit, its understandable as the reward of investment of playing FoE has been dropping

I wish you safe travels, if you are true to your word
 

The North Wind

Active Member
so true i am about to poof my city now that inno is in the habit of ripping us off new event chest cost 29.99 in canada but they only charge 14.99 in the states not eve in line with the exchange rate
Whoooooooo, You did not deserve the amount of hate you just got, apologies for my previous statement

No one comes to the FoE forums looking for that kind of behavior, and I doubt you expected it from that one remark

Everyone here ( for the most part I believe ) is against the new monetization features

sadly for as long as MTG owns INNO this will be the case...
we should be banding up against MTG not fellow players, fellow community members like yourself

It´s sad you had to leave the game this way, instead of a retirement or quiet departure
May you find enjoyment else where
 
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