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Replace Trade Ratio with Values of goods.

Keith96olds

New Member
Proposal
Replace trade ratio with the value of goods.

Current System (if applicable)
Trades.


Details
This would end confusion about unfair trades. Currently our younger players are being ripped off in unfair trades without knowing it. We should develop our younger players making the guild stronger.
 
Last edited:

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
Our younger players are being taken advantage of. Hurts them. Hurts FS by not developing them.

Because they aren't capable of learning? We were all younger players at one time and we all learned the ropes of the game. I never once felt taken advantage of, by the way. I'm not sure what you are advocating for here either way... what does "value" even mean in terms of a replacement for what exists now?
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
Value is the cost of goods as opposed to quantity.

The cost of goods as a determination of value is variable to the age one is in and the need for those goods, as well as the abundance in a particular group (neighborhood, guild, friends list). If the market is flooded with one good, its value would be very low, even if the cost were very high. In contrast, if a good is particularly popular (read Future goods), it might be much more valuable than a more costly one (say pre-Kraken Oceanic Future goods, for example). You are advocating for assigning value based on cost when value based on cost isn't the whole story, and is arguably the least important metric.

Aside from all that... if you don't format this as an actual proposal, it's going to be moved to Forge Hall. Just thought I'd give you a heads-up.
 

DeletedUser30143

Based on the replies so far, it sounds like more information is needed to clarify what's being proposed here. I'm from Keith96olds' guild, so I know what the issue is, as we've discussed it.

Currently, when making comparison trades in the market, there is a "rate" shown in one of the columns. Many players are under the impression that this is the value difference between goods of different eras, so they attempt to "even out" the ratios between high and low value goods that are not the true value, thus creating unbalanced trades. Unsuspecting players often accept these trades without realizing they are being cheated. The "rate" is only a ratio of quantity, so goods of eras only 2 levels apart may be fairly traded at 1:1, 1:2 or 2:1. But if you try to trade goods from Bronze level with those of High Middle, for example, the goods values are completely skewed. In essence, one of the traders with be severely robbed.

It's one thing to knowingly agree to trade goods of superior value for those of little value, while it's another thing to assume you are getting an "equal" trade because the market shows you a 1:1 deal (5 bricks for 5 dye, anyone?) just because you're trading the same quantity across the board.

Showing a value difference in a column with trade comparisons would at least let all players really know what they are agreeing to.

Secondly, and even more importantly, in my opinion, we would like InnoGames/FoE to consider making it possible to trade directly between all the goods from each era without forcing traders to limit their quantity ratios. This would allow each player to decide how to scale their trades (fairly or unfairly, as they choose). For example, a player could offer 5 bricks for 40 dye, which is a fair trade, as far as the pyramidal, value system actually works currently; as it now functions in the market, however, if you try to input these figures, you are warned that the quantity ratios don't work. Of course they don't! You can't place a limited qty. ratio (faux "value") on a pyramidal value system. They work at cross purposes to one another.

The solution is to allow the full range of trades from lowest to highest era. The ratios can even be left in the table for comparison purposes, but they shouldn't define the physical trade limitations. That should be left to the traders to decide.

The proposal is in your favor, traders. This is a win/win. Trades will be made faster, too, with less waiting for people to accept your offers -- because you'll be able to ask for what you want, and not have to wait while you trade 5 different types of goods to work your way up or down the eras.

I'm all for making these changes. I hope some of the rest of you will agree.
 

DeletedUser30143

The cost of goods as a determination of value is variable to the age one is in and the need for those goods, as well as the abundance in a particular group (neighborhood, guild, friends list). If the market is flooded with one good, its value would be very low, even if the cost were very high. In contrast, if a good is particularly popular (read Future goods), it might be much more valuable than a more costly one (say pre-Kraken Oceanic Future goods, for example). You are advocating for assigning value based on cost when value based on cost isn't the whole story, and is arguably the least important metric.

Aside from all that... if you don't format this as an actual proposal, it's going to be moved to Forge Hall. Just thought I'd give you a heads-up.

Looks like I was still writing the previous post when you posted, Salsuero. This issue you bring up is true, too, but a matter other than what we were hoping to get across. The issues you mention can, of course, be factored into a trade offer if more flexibility was programmed into the market interface. Currently, there is practically no mathematical flexibility to adjust cost/value/ratio. It's all based on a simplistic ratio formula that makes no sense in economic terms.


(Thanks for the head's up ... will talk to Keith about editing the OP to a proposal format.)
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
I'm all for making these changes. I hope some of the rest of you will agree.

This makes it easier to "cheat". If I'm in a guild with higher age players and they decide to "donate" all of the goods for, let's say the Arc... or Alcatraz, for just 1 Bronze Age good... I'm not in favor of that.

It also costs FPs to do trades outside the guild. You essentially take the advantage of guild trades away because one could simply pay 1 FP to a higher age friend for the scenario I just outlined... and then be asked to pay for those goods directly to the player's GBs. There should be a penalty to doing business outside the guild. Now... you could institute a form of FP payment for trades based on some formula in these cases... but there's already a method in place. The point is... you are not considering the potential for abuse. And again... value is not something everyone will see the same way. You want to toss in several extra metrics that don't necessarily represent the "value" of goods any better than their age alone. One can already see what age goods are from. If you are trading from one age to another, you should be able to see that the quantities are either "realistic" or not. I just don't know where you draw the line with this type of proposal in imposing value interpretations on folks. I'm not sold on what you want to do here, especially when abuse is very possible. Sorry.
 

DeletedUser28670

Oh for heaven's sake...
fair trade is easily defined.
Bob is happy about giving away 100 FE goods for 50 BA goods, because he somehow needs 50 stone a lot, and the recipient Jeff is even more happy. Fair trade? Yes, for them.

A fair trade is WHATEVER two people think is fair, otherwise a fair trade can be defined as a trade agreed upon by the two people trading.
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
A fair trade is WHATEVER two people think is fair, otherwise a fair trade can be defined as a trade agreed upon by the two people trading.

I 100% agree. However, I wouldn't be in favor of making it cost just 1 FP in the trade market for an out-of-guild trade of 2,250 OF goods for 1 BA good. Might be fair to the two parties involved, but not quite in the spirit of the game. I think there should at least be some effort to getting goods and a cost to doing business outside your guild. I'm not in favor of imposing rules on trade that don't already exist, nor am I in favor of loosening them. It think it's fine the way it is and if you wanna go out of your way to trade Bronze Age goods with the Oceanic Future... you should have to at least be required to give up a reasonable amount of your Bronze Age goods to do so... and some FPs to the market if you do so with someone not in your guild.
 

DeletedUser30143

if you wanna go out of your way to trade Bronze Age goods with the Oceanic Future... you should have to at least be required to give up a reasonable amount of your Bronze Age goods to do so... and some FPs to the market if you do so with someone not in your guild.

Exactly! THIS is what we are talking about.

But it seems that some players don't realize that most guilds already have a "Fair Trade" policy in place. It's just hard for those guilds to monitor/enforce (if they choose) when the market calculator doesn't allow "fair" offers to be made outside of 3 eras.

Keith96olds is not proposing that players cheat, or that anyone change what others think is fair. People are hearing what they think is being said; this isn't about proposing "fair trades" -- those already do or don't exist as per each guild's guidelines, and each player's opinion. The proposal is based only on making terminology clear, and applying an input code to the market's fill-in form that allows you to trade across all the eras (with the existing ratios and values), rather than just a range of 3 eras. We're not talking about an unlimited global economy based on gold/money/costs. The term "cost" doesn't just mean currency; it also means "barter." The trading of goods.

The trade rates are here: http://forgeofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Trading yet you can't actually make all of those trades in the market because the market "form" won't let you input them. That is what we're talking about. Nothing more. Nothing less.

More about this via the calculator based on FoE's trading ratios: http://foe.kwister.com/trades
 

DeletedUser30143

This makes it easier to "cheat". If I'm in a guild with higher age players and they decide to "donate" all of the goods for, let's say the Arc... or Alcatraz, for just 1 Bronze Age good... I'm not in favor of that.

Neither am I. We're saying the opposite of that. We're saying that a higher level player should NOT be able to offer only 10 bronze-age items when he wants to get 10 colonial-age items. But right now, he CAN. Because it shows up in the marketplace as a 1:1 deal and gets rated as "fair" by FoE. And players then think it must be fair because the FoE market says so. It's bad math.
 

DeletedUser28670

Exactly! THIS is what we are talking about.

But it seems that some players don't realize that most guilds already have a "Fair Trade" policy in place. It's just hard for those guilds to monitor/enforce (if they choose) when the market calculator doesn't allow "fair" offers to be made outside of 3 eras.

Keith96olds is not proposing that players cheat, or that anyone change what others think is fair. People are hearing what they think is being said; this isn't about proposing "fair trades" -- those already do or don't exist as per each guild's guidelines, and each player's opinion. The proposal is based only on making terminology clear, and applying an input code to the market's fill-in form that allows you to trade across all the eras (with the existing ratios and values), rather than just a range of 3 eras. We're not talking about an unlimited global economy based on gold/money/costs. The term "cost" doesn't just mean currency; it also means "barter." The trading of goods.

The trade rates are here: http://forgeofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Trading yet you can't actually make all of those trades in the market because the market "form" won't let you input them. That is what we're talking about. Nothing more. Nothing less.

More about this via the calculator based on FoE's trading ratios: http://foe.kwister.com/trades
That market calculator is really, really messed up IMO. Simple 1:1, 1:2, and 2:1 for all ages is what I like.
 

DeletedUser28670

Neither am I. We're saying the opposite of that. We're saying that a higher level player should NOT be able to offer only 10 bronze-age items when he wants to get 10 colonial-age items. But right now, he CAN. Because it shows up in the marketplace as a 1:1 deal and gets rated as "fair" by FoE. And players then think it must be fair because the FoE market says so. It's bad math.
Pfff who said it's fair, FoE never says it's fair or not, just that that trade is acceptable.
 

DeletedUser28670

And if you want to stop goods sellers from selling, expect to be bombarded by a giant wave of insults from the many selllers and buyers who profit everyday.
 
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