SAT Units need to be adjusted

[xivarmy]

Ive never hated moving up before. I've adapted to all the changes before: ge5, ads - i even watch them, not fixing gbg, not being able to do gvg, not being able to get things by strategy and working harder that paying players get in events, getting less diamonds from ge, etc. Why? I still enjoy ge, events, etc.... I don't enjoy gbg anymore. I got my boosts up so i could enjoy it, 100 attrition was aperk. Id rather be able to only go to 50 attrition without changing troops do often, then to go to 100, changing them. In fact, why would i want to do it long enough to get to 50, let alone 100. So I'm supposed to play so i can give goods to lower age players, that's what is supposed to make it worth it? The value of the goods is totally meaningless to me except i can't trade to get them either. But even if i get extra some day in the distant future, I'm not a seller. I never have sold goods. I've given them away before when in a guild to players that were active players in ge and gbg, but i have no interest in selling goods. So being in a an age with valuable goods hurts me too. It's not a perk. I'm still waiting for enough to place a gb, though i still need a bp. Which are also very costly.

I think one of the big differences in our perspective is i've already not-enjoyed GBG for well over a year - maybe around 2 now. Ever since the coop BS became commonplace, it's been a "why am I even bothering to play this?" I liked it when it came out and everyone was trying their best - but as the farming meta developed, "fun" rounds vanished and left behind a loot slot machine I can do without.

What you like: repeated autobattles without swapping out troops is in fact extremely unfun to me. Not that "but now you have to swap troops!" makes it more fun - but I do like when I have to pay attention to what I'm fighting and pick different armies at least. And I love when manual battle is an interesting option to extend things further. If I could skip through the first 50+ or so attrition in some meaningful way without having to click and click and click and get to the "interesting" range, that would be my dream

The world where i still GBG for fun is a low age one with high age troops in which I can fight on past attrition cap (on manual, primarily). It's great fun to see just how hard farmers will work to contain the guild that won't play by their coop rules Often don't even have to try that hard to make them work their asses off at creating multilayer primes because that small guild of 5 indy fighters is scary to a so-called-top-guild

My high era worlds I play for other reasons. I do some GBG on some of them when i need the loot slot machine. But it's hard to really get invested in a round when you either have to fight an entire coop, or noone's really even trying.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Th way the troops are selected in the defense program is key. Inno can change that anytime. The Troops we used to battle were alwyas a mix of all troops. (though sometime this year they all became harder to fight,ones. )Now the enemy is typically only hard to fight troops. So only half troop strength and stats, and half the actual troops selelcted are no longer random, but biased to hard to fight ones. . it is the bias in the troop selection that makes it doubly difficult

Below is a link to a post that reveals the opposing army configurations in GBG.

https://forum.beta.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/guild-battlegrounds-update-2021.15115/post-128827

Do you have any data that shows that either the configurations have changed or that the mix has changed ("harder" lineups became more frequent, "easier" configuration less so)? I don't recall anyone ever publishing a breakdown of the various configurations that revealed how common one setup is relative to the others.

 

[Angry.Blanket]

I think one of the big differences in our perspective is i've already not-enjoyed GBG for well over a year - maybe around 2 now. Ever since the coop BS became commonplace, it's been a "why am I even bothering to play this?" I liked it when it came out and everyone was trying their best - but as the farming meta developed, "fun" rounds vanished and left behind a loot slot machine I can do without.

What you like: repeated autobattles without swapping out troops is in fact extremely unfun to me. Not that "but now you have to swap troops!" makes it more fun - but I do like when I have to pay attention to what I'm fighting and pick different armies at least. And I love when manual battle is an interesting option to extend things further. If I could skip through the first 50+ or so attrition in some meaningful way without having to click and click and click and get to the "interesting" range, that would be my dream

The world where i still GBG for fun is a low age one with high age troops in which I can fight on past attrition cap (on manual, primarily). It's great fun to see just how hard farmers will work to contain the guild that won't play by their coop rules Often don't even have to try that hard to make them work their asses off at creating multilayer primes because that small guild of 5 indy fighters is scary to a so-called-top-guild

My high era worlds I play for other reasons. I do some GBG on some of them when i need the loot slot machine. But it's hard to really get invested in a round when you either have to fight an entire coop, or noone's really even trying.

5 Indy players with OF troops is small fish, Carthage has seen guilds with 40 Indy PE players with OF troops. .

 

[xivarmy]

5 Indy players with OF troops is small fish, Carthage has seen guilds with 40 Indy PE players with OF troops. .

And yet the small fish are still enough to scare the big fish apparently

 

[Angry.Blanket]

And yet the small fish are still enough to scare the big fish apparently

Never seen them scared .

 

[xivarmy]

Never seen them scared .

When they take to making three layers of "just in case" primes in front of you giving up a substantial portion of their swap area for a minor threat they could turn back in an ad hoc manner without any special preventative measures at all, that's fear And it's hilarious

 

[Angry.Blanket]

When they take to making three layers of "just in case" primes in front of you giving up a substantial portion of their swap area for a minor threat they could turn back in an ad hoc manner without any special preventative measures at all, that's fear And it's hilarious

Sorry but I was never afraid, Bored to tears, yes but never afraid.

 

[honey55]

I think one of the big differences in our perspective is i've already not-enjoyed GBG for well over a year - maybe around 2 now. Ever since the coop BS became commonplace, it's been a "why am I even bothering to play this?" I liked it when it came out and everyone was trying their best - but as the farming meta developed, "fun" rounds vanished and left behind a loot slot machine I can do without.

What you like: repeated autobattles without swapping out troops is in fact extremely unfun to me. Not that "but now you have to swap troops!" makes it more fun - but I do like when I have to pay attention to what I'm fighting and pick different armies at least. And I love when manual battle is an interesting option to extend things further. If I could skip through the first 50+ or so attrition in some meaningful way without having to click and click and click and get to the "interesting" range, that would be my dream

The world where i still GBG for fun is a low age one with high age troops in which I can fight on past attrition cap (on manual, primarily). It's great fun to see just how hard farmers will work to contain the guild that won't play by their coop rules Often don't even have to try that hard to make them work their asses off at creating multilayer primes because that small guild of 5 indy fighters is scary to a so-called-top-guild

My high era worlds I play for other reasons. I do some GBG on some of them when i need the loot slot machine. But it's hard to really get invested in a round when you either have to fight an entire coop, or noone's really even trying.

What i like is being up against a guild that is a challenge to beat, where we have races. I don't like taking a sector alone even if free cause if bores me just like recurring quests bore me. I was hoping the nerf would come live cause i don't even want endless fights myself. Taking this long to do anything is disappointing. If I'm going to do gbg I definitely don't want to be swapping units at low attrition. And what you want, playing with the correct unit doesn't work when speed is the important factor. They need a new feature where fighting with the correct unit is important. Gbg would need an overhaul to make that work where boosts could not be used or advanced units in order to be able to get away with using the wrong units. I never expected to get everything i wanted. But, i don't plan to do too much in a game that is not fun. Its a game. It's supposed to be challenging and fun. I wish i could see this as a challenge, but it still seems hopeless.

 

[85gt]

I am not one that likes to spend money in the game to build up Att/Def % just so Inno can adjust the AI to wash it all away. If I want a challenge I`ll go climb a mountain.

 

[honey55]

I am not one that likes to spend money in the game to build up Att/Def % just so Inno can adjust the AI to wash it all away. If I want a challenge I`ll go climb a mountain.

You know a hike up a mountain sounds fun. It's been too long since we've gone. Real mountsin climbing is more than i can do

 

[Athanofthered]

There is really only one thing that needs to be done to make titan troops viable, either nerf or nix keen eye 40% for doing double damage is way to overkill and basically makes defense redundant. The only time it was balanced was in SAM at 20% slightly less then a lvl 70 AO, after that it just became cancer.

 

[TotalTrash]

There is really only one thing that needs to be done to make titan troops viable, either nerf or nix keen eye 40% for doing double damage is way to overkill and basically makes defense redundant. The only time it was balanced was in SAM at 20% slightly less then a lvl 70 AO, after that it just became cancer.

I agree that Keen Eye is bad, no question. But that's not the only problem with the SAT units.
In this GBG round (so far), I've done about 4500 fights with Permafrost Drones and 4500 fights with Abyssal Gliders. That's a solid dataset for comparison.

My stats are now about 3700/2800. The way I compare the units is very simple:
At any given attrition (0 to about 80, I had no need to go higher), I loaded a fresh army of either Drones or Gliders (I switched ages between sectors). I did one battle and noted if I lost a unit. Then I refreshed the army and did the next battle. Rinse and repeat. Naturally, I was fighting slower for this test than I usually do.

Result after 9,000+ fights: I lost 69 Drones versus 21 Gliders.
While I only counted losses for this dataset, I can say that even when there were no losses, the Drones took consistently more damage than the Gliders.
Hence, the Gliders are better at fighting SAT units by a significant margin, even without AO support (mine is level 100) and LESS keen eye bonus.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

I agree that Keen Eye is bad, no question. But that's not the only problem with the SAT units.
In this GBG round (so far), I've done about 4500 fights with Permafrost Drones and 4500 fights with Abyssal Gliders. That's a solid dataset for comparison.

My stats are now about 3700/2800. The way I compare the units is very simple:
At any given attrition (0 to about 80, I had no need to go higher), I loaded a fresh army of either Drones or Gliders (I switched ages between sectors). I did one battle and noted if I lost a unit. Then I refreshed the army and did the next battle. Rinse and repeat. Naturally, I was fighting slower for this test than I usually do.

Result after 9,000+ fights: I lost 69 Drones versus 21 Gliders.
While I only counted losses for this dataset, I can say that even when there were no losses, the Drones took consistently more damage than the Gliders.
Hence, the Gliders are better at fighting SAT units by a significant margin, even without AO support (mine is level 100) and LESS keen eye bonus.

Although I haven't done any detailed analysis I agree with your conclusion that Gliders are better than Drones. I'm not sure that the upgrade in Keen Eye is the reason though. I think that the Gliders ability to get in a strike on the first wave makes the difference (whereas about half of the Drones are out of range on the first wave).

 

[Xenosaur]

Absolutely correct ! Do not move to Titan , stay at Jupiter and dominate.

2nd mouse gets the cheese. Many rushed to Titan because it was new and shiny. I'll bet few would declare (admit??) that it might have been a small decision error until it was better studied as an era for it's strengths and weaknesses. Of course, you can't go back to SAJM.

 

[Athanofthered]

2nd mouse gets the cheese. Many rushed to Titan because it was new and shiny. I'll bet few would declare (admit??) that it might have been a small decision error until it was better studied as an era for it's strengths and weaknesses. Of course, you can't go back to SAJM.

That and some of us (me included) wanted to help our guildmates get the new powerful GB's we'll adabt eventually to titans unit problems just like we did during AF OF and VF.

 

[Athanofthered]

Although I haven't done any detailed analysis I agree with your conclusion that Gliders are better than Drones. I'm not sure that the upgrade in Keen Eye is the reason though. I think that the Gliders ability to get in a strike on the first wave makes the difference (whereas about half of the Drones are out of range on the first wave).

Keen eye definitely plays a part at least at mid attrition having a 40% chance of double damage done to your units sorta of makes defense redundant.

I'm hoping the next era gets rid of keen eye and brings something new and more balanced.

 

[xivarmy]

Keen eye definitely plays a part at least at mid attrition having a 40% chance of double damage done to your units sorta of makes defense redundant.

I'm hoping the next era gets rid of keen eye and brings something new and more balanced.

A 40% chance of taking double damage makes defense *more* important, not less. And keen eye helps you too not just helps against you.

It is not to blame for the experience you're getting with SAT units (which has more to do with the limitations of the fast that prevents a hit-first-and-win-before-they-hit-back experience).

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

I find it strange the AI for Titan in GE 5 and GbG and even PvP makes rather biased choices.
When I do anything battling manually I wind up with a few points off a few troops. When I autobattle I usually have at least one dead and several with a lot of lost health points. The AI should be fair, not biased And should do what a sensible player would be doing.
The worst AI is clearly the Hood fight. to attack another City to plunder. And why The one guy and seven Rogues is unbeatable. The AI never uses common sense to kill off the Rogues. Which it should do. any player would have the smarts to kill the real attacker first (if they can reach it) Nope. And if they want City boost to matter they should be letting the City defending troops win. Or at minimum it be a fair fight. Using tactics talented real players use.
I think They should stop fooling around with the percentages, and the biased AI and give us a straight shot. Even odds. Instead of the dismal nonsense AI for battles that is being used now.
But I also agree the Titan Troops should be as good or better than SAJM. So fix the flying distance problem please.

If they would please stop messing around trying to be 'cute' wth the fighting AI. Jeez.

But finally, I still like Keen Eye. it is a good device to create at least some range of chance. And it can be fair, since both sides have it. If only the AI was not biasing it

 

[Athanofthered]

I find it strange the AI for Titan in GE 5 and GbG and even PvP makes rather biased choices.
When I do anything battling manually I wind up with a few points off a few troops. When I autobattle I usually have at least one dead and several with a lot of lost health points. The AI should be fair, not biased And should do what a sensible player would be doing.
The worst AI is clearly the Hood fight. to attack another City to plunder. And why The one guy and seven Rogues is unbeatable. The AI never uses common sense to kill off the Rogues. Which it should do. any player would have the smarts to kill the real attacker first (if they can reach it) Nope. And if they want City boost to matter they should be letting the City defending troops win. Or at minimum it be a fair fight. Using tactics talented real players use.
I think They should stop fooling around with the percentages, and the biased AI and give us a straight shot. Even odds. Instead of the dismal nonsense AI for battles that is being used now.
But I also agree the Titan Troops should be as good or better than SAJM. So fix the flying distance problem please.

If they would please stop messing around trying to be 'cute' wth the fighting AI. Jeez.

But finally, I still like Keen Eye. it is a good device to create at least some range of chance. And it can be fair, since both sides have it. If only the AI was not biasing it

Would utterly ruin the point of rouges and make them basically worthless.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

Would utterly ruin the point of rouges and make them basically worthless.

Who cares?. Rogues are far too overpowering in Hood vs City defense. Time to stop giving Rogues a free ride there.
In all other situation Rogues really are to use up one enemy shot, (that being their whole point anyway) in most other fighting situations. and there many players use several real troops and maybe up to five Rogues. Because in the other fighting situations, a player might lose the real fighter in autobattle.
So Rogue wold not become worthless. Player would simply need to use two or three real troops instead of the one famously used in Hood/City battles and never loses. And that is my point they never lose. and that is a sucky situation that made city defense to be worthless in the first place!!!