SAT Units need to be adjusted

[Darkest.Knight]

Lol, I've pretty much quit using rogues. The units work fine but it's a lot slower since I'm switching them out often. I'll eventually find a combination I like best, for now it's ok.

 

[Athanofthered]

Who cares?. Rogues are far too overpowering in Hood vs City defense. Time to stop giving Rogues a free ride there.
In all other situation Rogues really are to use up one enemy shot, (that being their whole point anyway) in most other fighting situations. and there many players use several real troops and maybe up to five Rogues. Because in the other fighting situations, a player might lose the real fighter in autobattle.
So Rogue wold not become worthless. Player would simply need to use two or three real troops instead of the one famously used in Hood/City battles and never loses. And that is my point they never lose. and that is a sucky situation that made city defense to be worthless in the first place!!!

Well you could akways find a middle ground just give the hood the same AI as the field map and the pvp tower.

 

[qaccy]

I'm hoping the next era gets rid of keen eye and brings something new and more balanced.

Sounds good on paper, but that's about as far as it goes. Inno's kind of painted themselves into a corner here. Anything new would have to be better than Keen Eye, otherwise players aren't going to use it. And if it is better than Keen Eye, then you've still got the same problem but with a new ability. IMO the solution here would have been to never introduce it in the first place, but this approach has certainly made it easier for them to design new units when each of them basically only has one ability now instead of potentially two.

 

[honey55]

Sounds good on paper, but that's about as far as it goes. Inno's kind of painted themselves into a corner here. Anything new would have to be better than Keen Eye, otherwise players aren't going to use it. And if it is better than Keen Eye, then you've still got the same problem but with a new ability. IMO the solution here would have been to never introduce it in the first place, but this approach has certainly made it easier for them to design new units when each of them basically only has one ability now instead of potentially two.

Seems to me they already created units not as good as the age before. Seems to me i used hoovers a number of ages past future. I also still use jupiter age units in Titan. Doesn't seem like they really care if we use new units. My guess is they only care if it brings in money and i suppose these new units that can't be used in gbg to fight quickly bring in lots of money as maybe players are using diamonds to heal them instead of swapping them out or spending money to get higher boosts.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Seems to me they already created units not as good as the age before. Seems to me i used hoovers a number of ages past future. I also still use jupiter age units in Titan. Doesn't seem like they really care if we use new units. My guess is they only care if it brings in money and i suppose these new units that can't be used in gbg to fight quickly bring in lots of money as maybe players are using diamonds to heal them instead of swapping them out or spending money to get higher boosts.

The Devs tested an "end of zero attrition" model in Beta. They discontinued the test but promised that other ideas were on the drawing board. It seems clear that INNO wants to curtail the nearly limitless number of GBG battles that players can do. So, reducing the range of the Drone makers sense in this context. The main concern with the weakness of Drones is that they require more frequent changeout than did Gliders when fighting in SAJM. I'm not surprised that they did this and I expect that more changes to GBG are coming.

 

[xivarmy]

Seems to me they already created units not as good as the age before. Seems to me i used hoovers a number of ages past future. I also still use jupiter age units in Titan. Doesn't seem like they really care if we use new units. My guess is they only care if it brings in money and i suppose these new units that can't be used in gbg to fight quickly bring in lots of money as maybe players are using diamonds to heal them instead of swapping them out or spending money to get higher boosts.

Indeed this is not the first time where a following age is not as easy as a preceding one.

But I doubt it has anything to do with diamonds directly that it's like this - noone's diamond healing their SAT units, and people will chase event buildings regardless (and as i mentioned in reply to one of your earlier posts, for the experience at low attrition a lot of serious fighters are past the point where more boost can do much of anything anyways until they get to higher attrition, whether they believe it or not).

Rather it's simply a consequence of wanting to put together a different experience - even if it is still an incredibly lazy different experience with no new unit abilities

 

[honey55]

The Devs tested an "end of zero attrition" model in Beta. They discontinued the test but promised that other ideas were on the drawing board. It seems clear that INNO wants to curtail the nearly limitless number of GBG battles that players can do. So, reducing the range of the Drone makers sense in this context. The main concern with the weakness of Drones is that they require more frequent changeout than did Gliders when fighting in SAJM. I'm not surprised that they did this and I expect that more changes to GBG are coming.

If their goal was only to end limitless battles, the only ones they slowed down were Titans. There still lots of limitless battles. Now players will have an even greater reason to camp out in lower ages.

 

[honey55]

Indeed this is not the first time where a following age is not as easy as a preceding one.

But I doubt it has anything to do with diamonds directly that it's like this - noone's diamond healing their SAT units, and people will chase event buildings regardless (and as i mentioned in reply to one of your earlier posts, for the experience at low attrition a lot of serious fighters are past the point where more boost can do much of anything anyways until they get to higher attrition, whether they believe it or not).

Rather it's simply a consequence of wanting to put together a different experience - even if it is still an incredibly lazy different experience with no new unit abilities

So what is the best boosts to aim for. Where does one quit having a benefit from adding more. Mines certainly not that high

 

[Pericles the Lion]

If their goal was only to end limitless battles, the only ones they slowed down were Titans. There still lots of limitless battles. Now players will have an even greater reason to camp out in lower ages.

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".

As I said, I expect to see more changes to GBG in the near future.

 

[xivarmy]

So what is the best boosts to aim for. Where does one quit having a benefit from adding more. Mines certainly not that high

Mostly Based on Permafrost Drone unless mentioned elsewhere (I realize some people may prefer Abyssal Gliders for their autoattack, but the stats aren't that different, so it's similar):

Defense: You want around 4 times the defense that the units you're attacking have attack. Somewhere around 400-500% defense is capped at 0 attrition (because it needs to overcome the matchup advantage for some units). At 50 attrition up to ~2200% has value.

Attack:
- If you're going for the OHK without a RNG proc (ao or keen eye), you need about 19 times the attack that the unit's your attacking have defense. This is actually quite a lot. But even if you get that at 0 attrition it's not likely to last for long. At 0 attrition you need between 2000% attack to 1-shot an artillery that wasn't going to hit you anyways, but might still matter if your units have decided to pick on that before an actual threat to ~3700% attack to 1-shot a heavy. At 20 attrition that moves to ~4100 for the artillery to ~6400 for the heavy. (as you can see that doesn't last very long). Note that the light cannot be killed in this way because of its ability. The point I'm trying to make here is that this just isn't feasible at all very far past 0 attrition.

- If you're going for a OHK with AO (or Keen Eye), at 0 attrition, that ranges from ~100% attack vs artillery to ~350% vs heavy to ~490% vs light (because you need to do 1 more damage). At 50 attrition, that ranges from ~1430% vs artillery to ~2050% vs heavy to ~2600% vs light.

- If you're going for a OHK with only Keen Eye because you're using Abyssal Gliders instead and can't get AO crits, At 0 attrition you need 0% attack for ranged or artillery to ~130% for the heavy to ~170% for the light. At 50 attrition you need ~660% vs artillery to ~1000% vs heavy to ~1120% vs light. 1600% vs light may be wanted for non-proc behavior as the force field gets applied twice (you want 7 base damage instead of 6).

---

Basically you're mostly past the limit of what boost can do at near-0 attrition (you can still go for the non-proc OHKs lasting a little longer maybe). So if your problem is how the performance is at near-0 attrition there's not a whole lot more you can probably do about that. If you're using titan units, you can improve the AO crit chance (though that'll just keep getting more expensive)

What boost does do is extend the experience at lower attrition longer. So if the near-0 attrition experience is fine with you, but you just want it to last longer, yes add more boost.

If you're doing the glider fights which seem to be the preference for the no-swappers, then I recommend more defense primarily as at 50 attrition you want ~1200% attack to ~2600% defense to be at the maximum useful stats. Ratio should be similar going up - say about twice the defense % as you have attack % to maintain "low attrition" behavior as long as possible. Edit: one final thought on this situation came to me, seeing as you're starting subsequent fights at less than full HP, you do want a little more attack to make up for that (a 1 HP unit has 55% of the total attack of a 10 HP unit) - So maybe closer to 50% more defense than attack if you're launching fights with half-HP units.

 

[85gt]

I find it strange the AI for Titan in GE 5 and GbG and even PvP makes rather biased choices.
When I do anything battling manually I wind up with a few points off a few troops. When I autobattle I usually have at least one dead and several with a lot of lost health points. The AI should be fair, not biased And should do what a sensible player would be doing.
The worst AI is clearly the Hood fight. to attack another City to plunder. And why The one guy and seven Rogues is unbeatable. The AI never uses common sense to kill off the Rogues. Which it should do. any player would have the smarts to kill the real attacker first (if they can reach it) Nope. And if they want City boost to matter they should be letting the City defending troops win. Or at minimum it be a fair fight. Using tactics talented real players use.
I think They should stop fooling around with the percentages, and the biased AI and give us a straight shot. Even odds. Instead of the dismal nonsense AI for battles that is being used now.
But I also agree the Titan Troops should be as good or better than SAJM. So fix the flying distance problem please.

If they would please stop messing around trying to be 'cute' wth the fighting AI. Jeez.

But finally, I still like Keen Eye. it is a good device to create at least some range of chance. And it can be fair, since both sides have it. If only the AI was not biasing it

I can finally agree with you on something, most of what your saying is what I have been saying, The only thing is Keen Eye I cannot go for this, where is Inno going with it, 20-25-30-35-40%, it should have been held at 20%, but no its Inno`s way of negating what we have bought and spent our diamonds on.
Like I said earlier, my first 3 troops in manual then hitting finish automatically kill 3 with 1 shot then my next troop came out and did not fire and yes it was in range because it was a SAJM troop, that is total bs to not let my troops shoot.

 

[honey55]

Mostly Based on Permafrost Drone unless mentioned elsewhere (I realize some people may prefer Abyssal Gliders for their autoattack, but the stats aren't that different, so it's similar):

Defense: You want around 4 times the defense that the units you're attacking have attack. Somewhere around 400-500% defense is capped at 0 attrition (because it needs to overcome the matchup advantage for some units). At 50 attrition up to ~2200% has value.

Attack:
- If you're going for the OHK without a RNG proc (ao or keen eye), you need about 19 times the attack that the unit's your attacking have defense. This is actually quite a lot. But even if you get that at 0 attrition it's not likely to last for long. At 0 attrition you need between 2000% attack to 1-shot an artillery that wasn't going to hit you anyways, but might still matter if your units have decided to pick on that before an actual threat to ~3700% attack to 1-shot a heavy. At 20 attrition that moves to ~4100 for the artillery to ~6400 for the heavy. (as you can see that doesn't last very long). Note that the light cannot be killed in this way because of its ability. The point I'm trying to make here is that this just isn't feasible at all very far past 0 attrition.

- If you're going for a OHK with AO (or Keen Eye), at 0 attrition, that ranges from ~100% attack vs artillery to ~350% vs heavy to ~490% vs light (because you need to do 1 more damage). At 50 attrition, that ranges from ~1430% vs artillery to ~2050% vs heavy to ~2600% vs light.

- If you're going for a OHK with only Keen Eye because you're using Abyssal Gliders instead and can't get AO crits, At 0 attrition you need 0% attack for ranged or artillery to ~130% for the heavy to ~170% for the light. At 50 attrition you need ~660% vs artillery to ~1000% vs heavy to ~1120% vs light. 1600% vs light may be wanted for non-proc behavior as the force field gets applied twice (you want 7 base damage instead of 6).

---

Basically you're mostly past the limit of what boost can do at near-0 attrition (you can still go for the non-proc OHKs lasting a little longer maybe). So if your problem is how the performance is at near-0 attrition there's not a whole lot more you can probably do about that. If you're using titan units, you can improve the AO crit chance (though that'll just keep getting more expensive)

What boost does do is extend the experience at lower attrition longer. So if the near-0 attrition experience is fine with you, but you just want it to last longer, yes add more boost.

If you're doing the glider fights which seem to be the preference for the no-swappers, then I recommend more defense primarily as at 50 attrition you want ~1200% attack to ~2600% defense to be at the maximum useful stats. Ratio should be similar going up - say about twice the defense % as you have attack % to maintain "low attrition" behavior as long as possible. Edit: one final thought on this situation came to me, seeing as you're starting subsequent fights at less than full HP, you do want a little more attack to make up for that (a 1 HP unit has 55% of the total attack of a 10 HP unit) - So maybe closer to 50% more defense than attack if you're launching fights with half-HP units.

I think i must not be understanding. Are you saying i need 2600 defence and half that 1300 attack? That the ratio is important. I have more attack than defense. I think it's 2400/2200 now and i thought many had 3000.

 

[xivarmy]

I think i must not be understanding. Are you saying i need 2600 defence and half that 1300 attack? That the ratio is important. I have more attack than defense. I think it's 2400/2200 now and i thought many had 3000.

The ratio is important if you're trying to extend the effectiveness of low attrition strategies as far as possible. i.e. at 2400/2200, with 8 abyssal glider autos, at the point when you start possibly taking more damage than you did at 0 attrition, you still have lots of extra attack that's not really helping you at that point. (because you do enough damage to 1-shot with keen eye or 2-shot without with less attack than you have).

It will of course start to help you as continue to climb in attrition, but more defense will help you earlier because you're capped on utility of your attack for longer. More defense makes "low attrition" last longer (at your current stats). More attack may help you more in pushing what your high attrition limit is. *Neither* helps your near-0-attrition performance much.

---

If you're optimizing for *high* attrition behavior near your limit instead, there's room for all kinds of options ranging from skipping defense entirely to trying to keep defense relevant (but probably not capped).

 

[85gt]

The Devs tested an "end of zero attrition" model in Beta. They discontinued the test but promised that other ideas were on the drawing board. It seems clear that INNO wants to curtail the nearly limitless number of GBG battles that players can do. So, reducing the range of the Drone makers sense in this context. The main concern with the weakness of Drones is that they require more frequent changeout than did Gliders when fighting in SAJM. I'm not surprised that they did this and I expect that more changes to GBG are coming.

That is as usual the wrong way to try to curtail the fights in GBG, if they had a ball or 2 they would just limit the SC use to 80% and leave our troops alone, but they always go about things in a rather backassward manner, like making the Attack and OK buttons so narrow in GVG, Us old guys need to use 2 hands to steady the mouse on that ridiculous narrow button and it did`nt slow down the cheats only the honest players. dumb

 

[Pericles the Lion]

That is as usual the wrong way to try to curtail the fights in GBG, if they had a ball or 2 they would just limit the SC use to 80% and leave our troops alone, but they always go about things in a rather backassward manner, like making the Attack and OK buttons so narrow in GVG, Us old guys need to use 2 hands to steady the mouse on that ridiculous narrow button and it did`nt slow down the cheats only the honest players. dumb

Just give them time. This is coming.

 

[Athanofthered]

If their goal was only to end limitless battles, the only ones they slowed down were Titans. There still lots of limitless battles. Now players will have an even greater reason to camp out in lower ages.

Easy enough to counter just save up a metric ton of drones (I plan to save up 12k) then you can be as reckless as you want without worrying about losses just periodically take a break to let your armies recover rinse repeat. If Inno wants to play sneaky games like this play right back.

 

[Athanofthered]

Just give them time. This is coming.

I doubt it they stopped the 66% idea because of the massive backlash they received. GBG is thier biggest diamond buyers source other then events if they nerfed that they'd be losing a lot of paying customers.

The problem with Titan is the same issue as AF OF and VF and just garbage units and the devs just being too lazy to actually address the issue lol.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

I doubt it they stopped the 66% idea because of the massive backlash they received. GBG is thier biggest diamond buyers source other then events if they nerfed that they'd be losing a lot of paying customers.

The problem with Titan is the same issue as AF OF and VF and just garbage units and the devs just being too lazy to actually address the issue lol.

I suppose we'll just need to wait to see what happens.

 

[Athanofthered]

I suppose we'll just need to wait to see what happens.

Fair enough just don't think we should give inno too much credit in the end they're a corporation motivated by profit more then anything else and that includes game balance.

 

[honey55]

Just give them time. This is coming.

You have a lot of faith that they'll do something. It's been like, over a year? I had faith at one time, but it kind of died off.