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The reality of probability...don't let your brain warp it

Agent327

Well-Known Member
Given all the bugs in the game WHY would you conclude there have never been bugs in the RNG?

For one cause there are many other parts of the game that have never shown bugs either. Just some part have bugs, does not mean that all parts do.

I've made no claims that there have been because no proof exists: however, you, Agent, and JBG all seem to believe that no bugs have ever existed and I'm wondering where your proof is.

Bugs exist, but in all the 9 years I have never seen a valid bug report considering the RNG and like I said, players that did keep track, confirmed the numbers given by Inno. I have never seen anyone prove they didn't and that is way more proof than you (can) come up with.
 

67Sage101

Active Member
I have always argued that the RNG appears biased via programming inputs to nudge players toward diamond sales. But only Inno could prove or disprove any biasing in the algorithm. Otherwise we are all just speculating wildly.

What is completely predictable is the names that love to weigh in on this topic.....LOL. :cool::cool::cool:
 
Question. What are those new features?

Any new feature. New ages, new GB’s, new mini-games, new events, new outputs from event buildings, etc. Everything they build that doesn’t fit into the original game elements creates risk and any shared components (maybe the battle screen for instance) that are changed could potentially create some type of havoc or unintended consequence in an older portion of the game. It’s just the inherent challenge of expanding without breaking that most (all?) companies face.
 
Why would we cite anything else when that is the very statistical law that the complainers are ignoring?

The main reason to not cite it would be because you are either misinterpreting it or using it incorrectly. Truthfully, the only people that should be citing it are mathematicians using it as a base assumption in some other descriptive property or proof, like say Binomial Distribution. What it basically states is that “more data = more accurate results“ and if we had infinite data we’d know the exact mean of the data. Things it does NOT state:
  • Exactly how large is large
  • All sample sizes must be really big to be relevant
  • Ignore smaller sample sizes
  • Arbitrarily select a big sample size and see if it fits your subjective definition of “close”
  • The true mean cannot be estimated with less data
  • This is the only rule for statistics
In fact, most textbooks/resources that even bother to reference a minimum sample size, in general terms, use a whopping 20. The Law of Large Numbers’ distribution cousin, Central Limit Theorem, uses 30. A quick web search can validate both values. Certainly, higher sample sizes are going to narrow the range of outcomes, but we don’t need 50,000 samples to have data that can be described statistically.

Do you disagree with the Law of Large Numbers?

No, I don’t disagree with it. That should be clear from the 2nd point in my original post. It’s been a fundamental pillar of Probability Theory for over 300 years. You may have noticed, though, that they didn’t prove that theorem and then just stop advancing our understanding and exploring the ramifications and implications of it.

Seriously, you're not doing these players any favors by feeding into their delusions.

What you seem to miss is that, with few exceptions, Binomial Distribution is actually a tool that justifies/validates that the outcomes are by and large in line with the published odds. While it certainly should be used as a frontline tool to check for errors, it is a fast and easy validation to shut down a claim with real mathematical rigor. So it is both sword and shield in that way.

If you think there's bugs in the RNG, prove there's bugs in the RNG.

I’d proffer that CDMark’s ToR data was clear evidence that the trigger mechanism for relics is underperforming by 2-3%.
 
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Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
The main reason to not cite it would be because you are either misinterpreting it or using it incorrectly.
Nope. Nice try though. Actually, since this isn't a mathematical forum, I wasn't "using it" at all. You're the one that's labeling my position, not me. It doesn't take a degree in statistics or probability or really any degree to know that a small amount of anecdotal "evidence" is insufficient to support a claim of either a bug in the RNG or nefarious dealings by Inno. All your obfuscation doesn't hide the fact that no one has proven any problems that have been claimed. So quit trying to act the expert and give us the data from extensive tracking of actual results. We'll wait.
I’d proffer that CDMark’s ToR data was clear evidence that the trigger mechanism for relics is underperforming by 2-3%.
It'd be nice if you'd provide a link to that. Because I'm certainly not going to waste time searching for it. Especially since "underperforming by 2-3%" is hardly worth mentioning and clearly does not support a claim of a bug/broken RNG/greedy schemes by Inno.

I get it. You went to college. And you want to finally use some of your schooling. But (and I've said it before) it gets really tiresome for you to keep beating the same dead horse and feeding the delusions of players who just can't deal emotionally with streaks of bad luck. You're the only one you're impressing.
 

Sharmon the Impaler

Well-Known Member
Hey, I'm not the one constantly complaining that the game's mechanics are flawed. Stop complaining about non-existent issues and I'll leave the horse be. ;)

I have tracked the past 122 times that I fought 100+ on the same sector with 4 SCs for over 3 months now. It has consistently given me 7+ attrition with the average of all 122 being well over the 4% advertized and a high of 17 about 2 months ago on a sector I was clearing at 3 AM EST. How big of a sample do I need before I can say that the 4% increase is not the reality ?

69 = 7 Attrition
51 = 8 attrition
1 = 11 attrition
1 = 17 Attrition

Longest attrition jump of 1 in a row with 4 SCs = 5
 
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Emberguard

Well-Known Member
I have tracked the past 122 times that I fought 100+ on the same sector with 4 SCs for over 3 months now. It has consistently given me 7+ attrition with the average of all 122 being well over the 4% advertized and a high of 17 about 2 months ago on a sector I was clearing at 3 AM EST. How big of a sample do I need before I can say that the 4% increase is not the reality ?

69 = 7 Attrition
51 = 8 attrition
1 = 11 attrition
1 = 17 Attrition

Longest attrition jump of 1 in a row with 4 SCs = 5
If there is a coding flaw in the RNG you could ask support to check your results and make sure there actually was 4 SCs active and that you got that attrition.

This is of course also assuming the enemy didn’t put down some traps or something
 

Sharmon the Impaler

Well-Known Member
If there is a coding flaw in the RNG you could ask support to check your results and make sure there actually was 4 SCs active and that you got that attrition.

This is of course also assuming the enemy didn’t put down some traps or something

I am in a top 20 guild and traps have been used 3 times in the past 2 years. They stand out like sore thumbs are are always looked for. I have almost 200K fights in so a fair amount of data to use. The 122 was a deliberate effort to see if my assumptions were correct and the amount of SCs were verified before and after matching the amounts of fights on it. 100 is the minimum and 112 is the maximum fights on the sectors counted , I rounded down to 100 to make it easier. One thing noted was that 2 wave battles count as 2 fights where attrition is concerned and the average is 50/50 single and double wave fights per sector so the 4% seems to be based off the 240 (9.6 attrition per 240) waves and not the 160 (6.4 attrition per 160) fights per sector in the case of diamond league.
 
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Emberguard

Well-Known Member
One thing noted was that 2 wave battles count as 2 fights where attrition is concerned and the average is 50/50 single and double wave fights per sector so the 4% seems to be based off the 240 (9.6 attrition per 240) waves and not the 160 (6.4 attrition per 160) fights per sector in the case of diamond league.
Ah! So it’s not necessarily the RNG itself that‘s the problem, it’s how often the game flips for a result

Your point does remind me of something that was retroactively changed though. Originally when two waves were introduced they were treated as two independent fights, just using the same attacking army for both fights. If you look at Global Rankings you can see that a successful first wave increases your fight count, but it was changed so now only the second wave counts for fights and it’s points are doubled. Given the change in handling ranking for double waves was more of a patch job than anything else it‘s certainly possible that has effected how attrition works now

If your theory is correct that double waves are the issue, then avoiding all double fights should yield a proper attrition result, while only fighting two wave battles should increase the attrition gained.
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
One thing noted was that 2 wave battles count as 2 fights where attrition is concerned
Are you saying that there is a chance after each wave for the attrition to be raised? Because if that were true then any two wave battles without the presence of SCs should add 2 attrition, and that isn't what happens. I just tested with several one and two wave battles and both added only a single point of attrition.
 

Sharmon the Impaler

Well-Known Member
Are you saying that there is a chance after each wave for the attrition to be raised? Because if that were true then any two wave battles without the presence of SCs should add 2 attrition, and that isn't what happens. I just tested with several one and two wave battles and both added only a single point of attrition.

No , 2 waves never each get an attrition added even when there are no SCs against the sector. I am saying the 4% seems to count each battle wave which would bring it more inline with what is advertised.
 

Sharmon the Impaler

Well-Known Member
Ah! So it’s not necessarily the RNG itself that‘s the problem, it’s how often the game flips for a result

Your point does remind me of something that was retroactively changed though. Originally when two waves were introduced they were treated as two independent fights, just using the same attacking army for both fights. If you look at Global Rankings you can see that a successful first wave increases your fight count, but it was changed so now only the second wave counts for fights and it’s points are doubled. Given the change in handling ranking for double waves was more of a patch job than anything else it‘s certainly possible that has effected how attrition works now

If your theory is correct that double waves are the issue, then avoiding all double fights should yield a proper attrition result, while only fighting two wave battles should increase the attrition gained.

Interesting test suggestion but difficult to set up. I will see if I can have this done in the next few weeks
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
No , 2 waves never each get an attrition added even when there are no SCs against the sector. I am saying the 4% seems to count each battle wave which would bring it more inline with what is advertised.
What you're saying makes no sense. Either it figures the chance all the time or it doesn't. If it doesn't (which is what the case seems to be) then it wouldn't make sense to count the waves as separate when figuring the %. Whether it's a one wave or two wave, it's still just one battle. Points are only figured once in either case, so why would attrition be figured twice? And if you never get attrition added for the second wave, why would you count it when figuring the %? Sorry, but it seems like there are a lot of players bending over backwards to try to "prove" that what they're experiencing isn't simply a streak of bad luck.
 

Sharmon the Impaler

Well-Known Member
What you're saying makes no sense. Either it figures the chance all the time or it doesn't. If it doesn't (which is what the case seems to be) then it wouldn't make sense to count the waves as separate when figuring the %. Whether it's a one wave or two wave, it's still just one battle. Points are only figured once in either case, so why would attrition be figured twice? And if you never get attrition added for the second wave, why would you count it when figuring the %? Sorry, but it seems like there are a lot of players bending over backwards to try to "prove" that what they're experiencing isn't simply a streak of bad luck.
If an attrition point is scored in the first wave then it disregards the possibility in the second wave setting the possibility at 0%. Else the second wave is tested at 4%. I don’t see how you can’t see this distinction without me pointing it out to you. Stop looking for arguments, it’s getting old.
 

Sledgie

Active Member
Interesting test suggestion but difficult to set up. I will see if I can have this done in the next few weeks
You'd probably have to use sectors where it is fine to flag slowly and individually record each fight on a spreadsheet using separate columns for single wave and two-wave fights.
 

UBERhelp1

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure I've seen only one RNG bug ever that was fixed. Can't find it though... don't have the patience to go digging.

But the burden is in proving that the RNG is behaving erratically; otherwise it's assumed to be working fine and that you're in a bad stretch. The only way to be sure is to get as much data as you can.

In terms of two-wave fights, the game actually does handle them differently so there's a chance that the attrition behaves differently as well. It'll be painful to test that though. If anyone really wants, you can just dig through the game code and try to find the RNG calls and see how that output is used and if it's tweaked.
 

iPenguinPat

Well-Known Member
You checked all bug fixes. Because there are bug fixes you conclude that the RNG can be bugged as well. If so, since bugs are fixed, so would that bug be. See any mention of it?

Will you please re-explain what you're saying?

Now why on earth did I expect that comment?

Why did you expect that comment?

So when it suits you, Inno is transparant in the bugs they fix, but if it does not suit you, they might not be?

Nine years of RNG in this game. Nine years of players complaining about the RNG, but every time a player takes the time and effort to keep track, they confirm the numbers given by Inno are correct. It's the complainers that never come up with the proof

He never said that inno is transparent about all bug fixes or even implied it. There are "almost always bug fixes" means something different than "all" bug fixes.

The RNG for "random" gbg matchmaking was not random for several months at the start of 2021. We were specifically told it was random and working correctly by a variety of official innogame sources.

... and yet the random matchmaking was "bugged." We proved beyond a reasonable doubt that matchmaking was not random. All it takes is 1 example of a "random" function to prove that RNG can be bugged. Mission accomplished.

If you think there's bugs in the RNG, prove there's bugs in the RNG. Otherwise you're just making stuff up. Proof. Something you seem unwilling and unable to provide. Afraid you'll prove it works correctly?

We agree that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim that something is wrong. Unwilling and unable are different. You must first be able before you can be truly unwilling. The problem with proving things like "the loot box RNG is broken" is that it's practically impossible for a single player to do because there is no way to get a large enough sample size.

A lack of proof for something you can't prove is inevitable.

I've brought collected data (not just assumptions), and it's rarely been proof enough for anyone that doesn't share my point of view or concern. (i.e. people saying RQ limit was to reduce server load, so I brought actual data about network usage (among other things). It showed that RQs were a drop in the bucket compared to a variety of regular in-game activities, the largest of which was loading a city after login. Later devs confirmed server usage was not the issue, just as many of us were saying.)

The points that My Push Account made about human error in RNG are completely valid.

Unfortunately, unless there's a governing body or regulations that is able to audit game developers and their RNG for prizes, all we can do is suck it up and take it, complain and get nowhere, or quit. Lack of accountability in gaming with "pay to win" features is a major problem. Hopefully, crypto gaming brings more light to the necessity of a regulating body for online games just as there is one for casinos.

I have been tracking 4 SCs in GbG over the past 4 months and have never gotten less than 9 attrition in 150 fights (121 sector levels to 150) in that time. While still close to the advertised 4% chance it has always been over by 1-2 %. The highest was 17 and the lowest was 9 attrition.

I also did some tracking and had similar results. Over for 1300 fights, 3SC was off by 1.77% and 1071 fight with 4 SC was off by 0.95%. Across 3956 fights of various support, total actual vs gained was 35.64 worse than predicted (just a hair under 1%).

I have tracked the past 122 times that I fought 100+ on the same sector with 4 SCs for over 3 months now.
That's a 10k+ Fight sample size. To Push account's point, that is more than enough to come to meaningful conclusions.
2021-12-01_11-56-17.jpg

I have a degree in chemistry. At that time, I had to deal with many scientific publications which are considered the standard for accurate and proven science. It was uncommon, if not rare to have sample sizes that large (10k+). Fresh out of college, I did QA/QC for a pharma company and even their sample sizes were laughably small. This obsession with humongous data sets and always saying a sample size isn't large enough or relevant might as well concede defeat or total ignorance (this goes both ways, on both sides of the argument).

What's interesting to me is that the data I've collected and the data people have shared with me are never in favor of the player if the sample size is large enough. For small samples, there are certainly times that the player is "up" but for large samples sizes, it's usually 1-3% underperforming. Shouldn't there be equally as many large samples that favor players?
2021-12-01_12-26-13.jpg

I’d proffer that CDMark’s ToR data was clear evidence that the trigger mechanism for relics is underperforming by 2-3%.

Another off by 1-3% example.

It'd be nice if you'd provide a link to that. Because I'm certainly not going to waste time searching for it. Especially since "underperforming by 2-3%" is hardly worth mentioning and clearly does not support a claim of a bug/broken RNG/greedy schemes by Inno.

For individual players, 1-3% isn't that big of a deal for gbg or TOR, but across all players, that 1-3% adds up. If you apply that to event prizes (which drive in-game purchases), it starts getting into "worth mentioning" and "motive." Since most special buildings disproportionality require the last upgrade to get their benefit, there is a lot of incentive for players to spend diamonds to ensure they get the final upgrade. If 1-3% of players have to spend extra because they are short upgrades, that turns into a lot of money at a million or billion-dollar scale. (Insert Office Space references here)

People that work with big numbers IRL know that 2-3% is a big deal.

it gets really tiresome for you to keep beating the same dead horse

No one is forcing you to participate.
 
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