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What is the formula for the 1.9 thread?

  • Thread starter DeletedUser37344
  • Start date

-Sebastian-

Active Member
I was debating on whether to respond to this, as it screams to simply be entertaining, but here goes. First though, your question extraordinary begs the question, what is the meaning of your typically top three guild-given title "GuardianOfTheTreasury/Council"?

No, seriously, it's an honest question. I don't understand your math. Why do you do it that way? Am I missing something?

As for that title, that's just what someone put there. (In my other world, it's "Gold Five".) "Council" means that I'm in the leadership group. And the other part is someone's fancy way of saying that one of my jobs is to watch the guild treasury - income, spending, where we're low and where we're high, what eras we produce in. That sort of stuff. There are spreadsheets. It's not terribly interesting, but it does help everyone else relax in the knowledge that we're not going to run out of goods. :)
 

WolfKingSG

New Member
Ok, kudos on the record keeping. In all aspects a thankless job in general, but one that beats the band's drum. The reason for subtracting the contributions from the self contribution amount is because they are filling the container you, as the owner, are also filling. And, as the owner and not the sniper, your goal is to fill the container just enough for your partners ( or other outside contributors ) to be able to fill it and lock out the other contributors already filling the container, but also to have to fill it enough that you as the owner is getting what is expected ( i.e. 1.x * reward). Probably, for me anyways, much better explained or realized in number format. Using Nicholas002's handy shortcut, 3.8 :
631 - ( 3.8 * 80 ) + 9 = 336 your self fill calculation (I'm not sure what your + 9 is in reference but can only assume it is in fact + ( 9 / 2 ) + 4 )
631 - 336 - 13 = 282 left to fill container, with a highest non-locked contributor contributing 9
( 282 + 9 / 2 ) / 2 = p1( 144 ) #value for which your building p1 now locks
-- correct p1 ( 152 ) --
631 - ( 3.8 * 80 ) - ( 9 / 2 ) - 4 = 318 self fill amount to get ( or rather force ) the desired 1.9 contribution
631 - 318 - 13 = 300 left to fill container, with highest non-locked contributor 9
( 300 + 9 / 2 ) / 2 = p1( 153 ) #value for which your building p1 now locks
We were looking for 152, but since I rounded up as a habit of the sniping math for the self fill amount, we, as the owner, paid 1 less. So, just remember to round down the highest non-locked contributor / 2 when calculating self fill amount.

Another way you could look at the problem:
part of the container that is filled = part of the container to be filled
WHERE
(-631) (+9) (+4) (+selfFill) (+[contribution3, contribution4, ...]) = (+631) (-9) (-4) (-selfFill) (-[contribution3, contribution4, ...]);

But, possibly a formula with which you're already came up or are familiar (this is what I came up with for sniping thus far):

fp amount to lock = ROUNDUP(
fp amount remaining on gb +
your current contribution fp amount +
highest non-locked contributor
) / 2;

WHERE "your current contribution fp amount" is either you as a contributor to another's gb or to your own. If the desired lock amount as an owner is 152, then:

152 = ROUNDUP(
( 631-13 ) +
your current contribution fp amount +
9
) / 2;

152 = ( ( 631 - 13 ) + cc + 9 ) / 2;
304 = 627 + cc;
-323 = cc;

Whoops, I failed to follow my formula in the original post. The what gets multiplied or divided by two gets confused now and then :D. The largest, or the next largest contributor has to be fully accounted for, and not halved itself. Rather, the total amount in the container to be displaced is halved. Anyways, 323 is the amount that needs to be added in the stated example, and that is THE formula, or at least the best I got for now. I'll give it a go walking through the weeds:

LOGIC
the amount needed to either displace or allow for the displacement of the current total displacement is an amount either larger or less than the total current displacement
WHILE
that amount needed is equal to or less than the amount remaining to be displaced
AND
to displace the largest or next largest displacement, an amount is needed that is larger than such
OR
to allow for the displacement of the largest or next largest displacement, an amount is needed that is less than such
AND
to displace the least amount needed, an amount half that of the remaining plus the next largest and our self
WHICH
is an amount that the next largest can't displace because the remaining is less the amount needed
WHERE
the values with which we're concerned are:
container size = cs; #total fp needed for the total gb level
next largest displacement = nld; #highest non-locked contributor, or the next next largest contributor if not yourself, either present or not
sum of other contributors = soc; #(total current displacement, sum of contributions, etc.)
your current contribution = cc; #either present, needed, or none
desired contribution = dc; #either present, needed, or none (aka to lock amount)
**note: nld and cc can both be yourself if you're a contributor to another container and not your own, in which case becomes one value (enter 0 for one or the other)
0 = cs - soc - nld - cc - dc;
0 = 631 - 4 - 9 - cc - 152;
-466 = - cc;
466 is what is needed to fill the container completely, by you, the owner or sniper, after other contributors are considered
152 is both the desired contributor and the wanted next largest displacement, or rather, THE wanted largest displacement
152 - 9 = 143; the amount that can't be allowed to be added to to displace the desired contributor by the next largest displacement
466 - 143 = 323; amount that needs to be added for 152 to be THE largest displacement after it is added
SO
where do the dirty twos come from? They account for the minimum part of the container that is to be displaced.
( cs - soc - nld - cc ) / 2; #minimum space left in the container for a new largest displacement
2 * dc; #minimum space needed in the container to force desired contribution
0 = cs - soc - nld - cc - dc;
0 = ( cs - soc - nld - cc ) / 2 - ( 2 * dc );
0 = ( 631 - 4 - 9 - 0 ) / 2 - ( 2 * 152 );
0 = 309 - 304;
0 = 5; #amount that either a lesser displacement or the container owner will have to put in to make both spaces equal, negative value here would be the amount for which an owner can be sniped
309 + 5 + 9 = 323; #space of the container to be filled so the minimum space to force desired contribution can be filled by a new largest displacement that can't be displaced
631 - 323 - 13 = 295; #new space of the container that can be filled by THE new largest displacement
295 - 152 = 143; #space left to completely fill the container
9 + 143 = 152; #the most for which that the next largest displacement can fill the container
AND SO
the amount of space we want to displace in the container while also not either being or allowing another to be displaceable = half the space left to be displaced in the container plus the next largest displacement, and if that isn't our self, then also for which what we are our self currently in the container

fp amount to lock = ROUNDUP(
fp amount remaining on gb +
your current contribution fp amount +
highest non-locked contributor
) / 2;

2 * fp amount to lock -
fp amount remaining on gb +
highest non-locked contributor =
your [needed] current contribution fp amount
;

Anyways, this turned into what might as well be a wiki page. All that's missing are illustrations (yet to be added to my own work, I'm sure, as I continue editing it). If you made it this far, Cheers :D.
 

-Sebastian-

Active Member
I can follow your description of the sniper math, and that's correct. All I'm doing is the same thing, except I just solve for different knowns and unknowns. Basically, moving the numbers around to tell me how much I have to add, so that no one can snipe it for less than 1.9. I'm not sure if I can follow your description of the priming math, though. I think you may be going through a lot of unnecessary steps, and making it harder than it needs to be, and I can't tell if that conceals an error or not. You might want to try playing around with your formulas, and seeing if you can get some terms to cancel out?

I prefer doing two 1.9 calculations, rather than one 3.8 calculation, both because the rounding isn't precisely the same (although that almost never matters), but also because I know a lot of the 1.9 multiples by heart. It takes less mental effort for me to do the calculations, when I can just look at "80" and see "152", or look at "85" and see "162". Your mileage may vary.

The "9" comes from my hypothetical situation: "So take the example of a CoA, level 11->12. Total FP is 631. The reward for 1st is 80. Let's say neighbor #1 added 9 FP, and neighbor #2 added 4 FP. " If we don't add the 9, then after my friend adds 152, neighbor #1 could add enough to pass my friend. We can ignore neighbor #2, because once we make it safe against neighbor #1, it's automatically safe against neighbor #2. There's no reason to divide 9 by 2 and then add 4. In the example I gave, it happens to round out to the same answer, but in a different example it could give a different answer, which would be wrong.

One of the tricks here is that we don't need to treat our own contributions as being separate from the contributions of everyone else on the building, with the single exception of the person who's currently in the place that we're trying to prime for 1.9. In my example, that means that neighbor #2's 4 FP is counted along with our own FP, and we don't need to plug them in to different parts of the formula. All we need is the space remaining and the amount added by the person who's currently in the place. (And if there's no one there, that's even easier.)
 

WolfKingSG

New Member
I can follow your description of the sniper math, and that's correct. All I'm doing is the same thing, except I just solve for different knowns and unknowns. Basically, moving the numbers around to tell me how much I have to add, so that no one can snipe it for less than 1.9. I'm not sure if I can follow your description of the priming math, though. I think you may be going through a lot of unnecessary steps, and making it harder than it needs to be, and I can't tell if that conceals an error or not. You might want to try playing around with your formulas, and seeing if you can get some terms to cancel out?

I prefer doing two 1.9 calculations, rather than one 3.8 calculation, both because the rounding isn't precisely the same (although that almost never matters), but also because I know a lot of the 1.9 multiples by heart. It takes less mental effort for me to do the calculations, when I can just look at "80" and see "152", or look at "85" and see "162". Your mileage may vary.

The "9" comes from my hypothetical situation: "So take the example of a CoA, level 11->12. Total FP is 631. The reward for 1st is 80. Let's say neighbor #1 added 9 FP, and neighbor #2 added 4 FP. " If we don't add the 9, then after my friend adds 152, neighbor #1 could add enough to pass my friend. We can ignore neighbor #2, because once we make it safe against neighbor #1, it's automatically safe against neighbor #2. There's no reason to divide 9 by 2 and then add 4. In the example I gave, it happens to round out to the same answer, but in a different example it could give a different answer, which would be wrong.

One of the tricks here is that we don't need to treat our own contributions as being separate from the contributions of everyone else on the building, with the single exception of the person who's currently in the place that we're trying to prime for 1.9. In my example, that means that neighbor #2's 4 FP is counted along with our own FP, and we don't need to plug them in to different parts of the formula. All we need is the space remaining and the amount added by the person who's currently in the place. (And if there's no one there, that's even easier.)
Rounding two separate multiples of 1.9 and adding them together will possibly result in an erroneous solution. In this matter, a volume of the container with which we want to consider being off by 1, or more. A bad day it is when sniped by 1!! :D
The priming math I'm assuming you're referring to, or maybe rather the technical stuff outside the simple four or five line formula towards the end, are the definitions of the volumes inside the container with which we have to work, and simply an attempt to explain how they interact, which makes the formula work. The reason we end up with a negative value in the formula when solving for the prime amount is because that is what reaches zero. Zero being the container at full capacity, the ultimate goal. Or rather, the Great Building reaching the full amount of Forge Points it can hold until it is leveled. Another way to define it could be we as the owner need to SUBTRACT from the part of the container TO BE filled, versus as the sniper we need to ADD to the container which may or may not ALREADY be filled.
I just realized I left out a grouping in the previous post when solving for the prime amount and some further clarifications ( in brackets ) could be made in the formula's text to perhaps make it even clearer:

fp amount to lock = ROUNDUP (
fp amount remaining on gb +
your current contribution [as an outside contributor, the sniper] fp amount +
highest non-locked contributor
) / 2;

2 * fp amount to lock - (
fp amount remaining on gb +
highest non-locked contributor
)
= your [needed] current contribution [as an owner, priming] fp amount;
 

-Sebastian-

Active Member
2 * fp amount to lock - (
fp amount remaining on gb +
highest non-locked contributor
)
= your [needed] current contribution [as an owner, priming] fp amount;

Right, except that I think you've got the signs backwards. ;-) Let's say there's a GB level of mine that takes 1000 FP, the 1st place reward is 100, I've got 400 FP on it, and a neighbor has 30, so the total on it is 430. By my formula, I want the total to be 1000-190-190+30=650, so I need to add 650-430=220. By your formula, I'd need to add 2*190-((1000-430)+30)=380-600=-220. So, pretty much the same thing...

Also, I'd suggest that "fp amount remaining on gb" might not be a good number to use, since it's an intermediate value. I think it'd be more straightforward to replace that with "maximum fp"-"current total fp", since those are both numbers that are directly on the screen. But that's just a preference of mine. Anyway, if you wanted to make that change,, your formula is basically the same as mine: "maximum fp"-"total fp"+highest non-locked contributor"-2*(fp amount to lock)="your needed contribution".
 

WolfKingSG

New Member
Right, except that I think you've got the signs backwards. ;-) Let's say there's a GB level of mine that takes 1000 FP, the 1st place reward is 100, I've got 400 FP on it, and a neighbor has 30, so the total on it is 430. By my formula, I want the total to be 1000-190-190+30=650, so I need to add 650-430=220. By your formula, I'd need to add 2*190-((1000-430)+30)=380-600=-220. So, pretty much the same thing...

Also, I'd suggest that "fp amount remaining on gb" might not be a good number to use, since it's an intermediate value. I think it'd be more straightforward to replace that with "maximum fp"-"current total fp", since those are both numbers that are directly on the screen. But that's just a preference of mine. Anyway, if you wanted to make that change,, your formula is basically the same as mine: "maximum fp"-"total fp"+highest non-locked contributor"-2*(fp amount to lock)="your needed contribution".
The sign states the needed interaction within the defined relationship. Both of which can be open to interpretation, perhaps the confusing part. I think your formula's resulting sign might be more confusing in the opposing scenario. As an outside contributor, or rather the sniper, I believe the resulting sign would be negative for both the amount to be added, as well as after a different calculation, the amount to be gained by the individual. But, could also be interpreted as the amount the owner loses to the sniper, so in that regard makes sense. Also, "fp amount remaining" is a cancellation of terms, something you made mention, but I agree is more confusing but for a different manner - it is inclusive of variables that may or may not be present. I think what may make more sense for this is using the terms "your contribution as an owner" and "your contribution as a contributor". Either can be set to zero for the appropriate situation.

(
maximum fp -
total fp +
highest non-locked contributor +
your contribution as a contributor
) -
2 * fp amount to lock =
your contribution as an owner;

#for readability, let's abbreviate

( mfp - tfp + hnl + ycc ) - 2 * fpl = yco;

fpl = ( yco - ( mfp - tfp + hnl + ycc )) / - 2;
 
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lll Liz lll

New Member
There is no real formula that works in all situations, since snipers and players who take positions out of order can mess it up.

for a clear level, it is very simple: remaining FP to level - 3.8x rewards= own contribution

for a level that has snipers on it, there's no formula, so just figure out how much you have to prime so that there is a 3.8x gap between your investment, and the sniper's investment. (given that the sniper's investment is lower then the 1.9 spot you are priming for)

I would tell you a way to make this super easy, with zero math, but I am not alllowed to. (you can probably guess)
Dear Nicholas:
This owner donation part has been driving me crazy for a few years. It is so easy to figure how much to donate to someone else's GB @1.9, but I want to be able to calculate my owner donation if I am unable to access a website calculator for owner donation. I tried several times using your total remaining - (3.8 x rewards) and just can't come up with the same amount. AO level 46. 1st and 2nd position taken. 2701 Total FP donation. P1 and P2 donation total is 2154 FP with 547 total FP remaining. Reward amount for P3 is 125 FP (no ARC/238FP with 80 ARC) 547- (3.8*125), 547-475=72 FP donation. The P3 owner donation is 125 FPs. Can you please explain what I am doing wrong or how to figure it out so that I won't have to continue to be a slave to the FOE 1.9 calculators?
 

Ebeondi Asi

Well-Known Member
THe lock is basically to make certain that the player who is taking the 1.9 position offered cannot be overtaken. (IE they cannot lose the position because someone adds more.) so the owner has to make certain that there is not enough room for a second player to add more. that is creating lock.
So when players write "multipy by 3.8" that is twice what the position is worth @ 1.9/ and exactly the correct amount. So then the wanted player add the 1.9 and no other player can add more. they can add the same amount but the first player stays on the reward.

Anther reason for adding exactly twice the 1.9 reward is sniping. when ther are more forge points than twice the reward at 1.9 a sniper can grab the spot and make a profit and they have lock. (no one can pass them and knock them off)
So it is a fine balance. and the twice 1.9 or 3.8 is critical. to providing lock and avoiding snipers.

Also never add all the total you have to add all at once. that is a sniper dream GB. Though I have to say many advanced players do it anyway. but if you want to protect yourself, add only for the first two (which always go together) and then after the firt two are filled add for P3 do that then P4..
then P5
 
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