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Was Cosmic Raven's Guide even a remotely competitive playstyle for its time?

DeletedUser27889

They don't look impressive now because he hasn't played in almost 2 years. If he had stayed and kept working his HQ strategy he would still be an impressive player.
He would have needed to change his strategy quite a lot to remain competitive , something I don't think he was ever willing to do.
I'm kind of surprised to hear this. His strategy would still work now, exactly as it did then.
I should have chosen my words better. It's not that it wouldn't work in terms of you getting the results he states but those results would no longer give you the competitive edge, in fact I'd wager any one following it to the tee as it was commanded would find themselves more or less behind. Glarg's guide coupled with the beginning stages of CR's is still a fantastic way to begin any new city. The best IMHO. As CR's was more a 'life style change' to how you play the entire game it simply doesn't hold up in terms of keeping players ahead of the curve, which was it's purpose.


That's quite interesting! So around what time did the level 80 Arc supersede HQS as the dominant strategy for competitive, maybe for me to better understand the perspective of time, in relations to Dulahan's guide?
I'm not exactly sure. Each established world had their own trickle of arc super leveling. Observations of how a high arc could really impact the game started coming from the other servers and beta. On each world someone had to be the ginny pig. On mine, N, it was Stineamite. I remember him working it for an incredibly long time, as obviously when you're the first arc until you can convince someone to go with you you're going it alone, no locks. I bought goods from him at one point and he directed me to his level 60ish arc to pay and I'd never seen anything like it from anyone else in the game up till that point. Going by the dates in my city planner it would have been around January of 2017 that N had it's first level 60s arc. About a month later when I realized what he was doing and why, I bought arc goods from him and had the first one in my guild (as an LMA player lol). From there as @Stephen Longshanks would say the virus had spread. His was up and he could lock people, once those were up those people could lock others and so on and so on. Then still going by planner dates it looks like I had it at 80 by February of 2018. Which is why when people complain to me about how long it takes, or they should be getting 1.9 I don't have much sympathy. I took whatever I could get and even then I know I had it better than the first who got nothing.

As for when people started coupling that with high Chats those who were using Chat before began noticing how much more useful it could be with arc. People on beta and other worlds had super leveled theirs so you could see the actual numbers. Chat was a much slower turn around for people to see its usefulness even now some don't bother. It was the first GB I did after Arc most others seemed to work Cape. It was quite hard to get all the BPs since not many people were bothering (and I was under PE at the time) So super long story to get to your answer, best round about time table where chat + arc came to be understood and THE combo was sometime after Feb 2018 though there were many players who knew that before hand and just didn't bother to have yet another argument of why getting more quest rewards were better than XYZ or whatever they would throw at you.

I can only speak to the time lines on the world I experienced. @LacLongQuan would probably long predate anything I saw as at least forum wise he was the first player I can recall really talking about leveling his arc so he and his world most likely joined the band waggen much earlier. Arc/FE was released in Feb of 2015, someone had to first get the idea for it then actually do it -gather bps and power level it without locks- then that idea had to spread out. It's not like it is now where a GB is dropped and 5 hours later someone had a level 60 and we can all see the stats.

Was doing GE at that time worth it for the FP? Idk if GE4 was a thing back then.
GE 4 hadn't come out yet. GE itself was only added into the game in May of 2016, couple weeks after I started playing. Earliest date on his guide I can see is 7 months later but that's when he decided to write it here not when he began his 'teachings'.
 

DeletedUser36624

CR’s guide is outdated as it is. You wanna progress faster then work on your arc. But before you have at least a good amount of daily FPs collection, you either have some super patient guild mates that offer you 1.9 and wait for week for you to level once on your arc or you getting sniped left and right by everyone else.
Anybody who is leveling their Arc out of daily collections is doing it wrong.
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
Late to the party.

CR's HQS was innovative. No one had ever created and written a viable dominant game strategy guide that was as powerful as HQS. No one has tackled anything like the scale and scope of the HQS Guide since.

Sure, it's outdated. So? It's still the best overall Guide posted on this forum even today. A player following just the HQS Guide woudl still do fine at the game today.

HQS is still instructive, a lot of folk learn the details and usefulness of farming RQs from HQS.

I suspect if CR had been around for GE, DC, Event spamming, Special Building power creep. and the now obvious effects of Arc power leveling that the HQS would be up to date and still a top notch strategy.

That being said I didn't follow HQS, not my style.

I thought CR was oversensitive to criticism. He spent a lot of time needlessly defending HQS. The technique spoke for itself, if you liked HQS it worked, if you didn't, well, you got left behind by HQS adherents.

HQS is still unique in that it is the only complete effective dominant strategy that any player could easily.adopt.

----------

The best part of HQS? The profound effect on the forums! A cult was founded, a militant religion born. HQS was holy writ, CR was it's prophet. the followers were legion, fanatical, and vocal.

Any time any topic came up the topic would inevitably turn to how HQS could solve the problem or question Arguing with an HQS cultist was, well, shall we say interesting?

As is the case with any cult though, once the charismatic leader moves on, the inevitable schisms, fragmentation, arguments, reformatioins occurred.

The evolution was educational and fascinating.

Anybody who is leveling their Arc out of daily collections is doing it wrong.

I'm pretty sure you either omitted something or you don't understand a completely viable strategy.
 

DeletedUser36624

I'm pretty sure you either omitted something or you don't understand a completely viable strategy.
It's an Arc. Why is someone funding it out of piddly daily collections instead of using it to generate massive profits that can fund itself and a lot more? Why even have an Arc in that case?
 

DeletedUser30312

I don't know how competitive CR's guide was in its time, since I never joined the cult. What the guide did do right was explain how the game's recurring quests in detail, and even partially following it is useful. One doesn't necessarily need to park in HMA/CA and spam Alchemists or Clockmakers all over the place, but knowing how to use even a moderate number of them to work a few RQ cycles is still useful for a city.

CR was pretty dogmatic, opinionated, and pigheaded about it though, which was one of the things I didn't like about the guide. Another flaw is that he built it with an eye toward eventual GvG participation and insisted on building up the city toward that with stuff like stockpiling Champion Retreats, but HQS and GvG are really two game aspects that can be mutually exclusive. This would be an example of superfluous information in his guide that wasn't important to the overall strategy. He also had a somewhat amusing view that the Hagia Sophia was far superior to the Cape.

If you want to see "excessively dogmatic", just try making the wrong donation in a guild where level 80 Arcs are involved. Got my head bit off in a guild once because I locked 4th spot on a GB (not an Arc, by the way), but didn't put 1.9 in. Left that guild in a hurry.

Is spot 4 even at all profitable? I thought the profits usually stop after 2 or 3. Yeah, I wouldn't stay in guild like that either.
 
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DeletedUser

Is spot 4 even at all profitable? I thought the profits usually stop after 2 or 3. Yeah, I wouldn't stay in guild like that either.
I don't remember what GB it was, or whether I was gaining or losing FP, I just remember that I put on the right number of FP to lock the spot and got the message telling me that wasn't good enough. I don't even remember if I responded or not. I'm pretty sure I didn't bother to put the extra FP on.
 
I don't remember what GB it was, or whether I was gaining or losing FP, I just remember that I put on the right number of FP to lock the spot and got the message telling me that wasn't good enough. I don't even remember if I responded or not. I'm pretty sure I didn't bother to put the extra FP on.

with lvl 80 Arcs in a guild providing 1.9 to your GB leveling up gets screwed up when someone comes in and grabs/locks a position with less than 1.9...the GB owner has to add the FP you didnt put in, costing them more. expect it from a hoodie but not from a guildie...in my guild we would be glad to see you leave if you didnt understand this principal.
 

DeletedUser29726

with lvl 80 Arcs in a guild providing 1.9 to your GB leveling up gets screwed up when someone comes in and grabs/locks a position with less than 1.9...the GB owner has to add the FP you didnt put in, costing them more. expect it from a hoodie but not from a guildie...in my guild we would be glad to see you leave if you didnt understand this principal.

How it gets reacted to is a big part of the issue. Snapping at people never goes well though.

I get what probably happened is the person had set their building up for 4th, 5th, levelled on a 1.9 thread rather than setting up 4th, then adding more to setup 5th after 4th was in. But when a new person to the thread makes a mistake, it's important to explain to them how that particular thread works rather than just demand they add more.
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member
It's an Arc. Why is someone funding it out of piddly daily collections instead of using it to generate massive profits that can fund itself and a lot more? Why even have an Arc in that case?
Because the days of generating massive profits are dwindling. Hard to get profits outside of self lvl'rs that are guildless when it's a 1.8-1.9 dominated field even on those that can't reciprocate.
 

DeletedUser

with lvl 80 Arcs in a guild providing 1.9 to your GB leveling up gets screwed up when someone comes in and grabs/locks a position with less than 1.9...the GB owner has to add the FP you didnt put in, costing them more. expect it from a hoodie but not from a guildie...in my guild we would be glad to see you leave if you didnt understand this principal.
It was listed on a "close to leveling" thread, not a 1.9 thread.
 

DeletedUser

How it gets reacted to is a big part of the issue. Snapping at people never goes well though.

I get what probably happened is the person had set their building up for 4th, 5th, levelled on a 1.9 thread rather than setting up 4th, then adding more to setup 5th after 4th was in. But when a new person to the thread makes a mistake, it's important to explain to them how that particular thread works rather than just demand they add more.
As I point out in the above post, it wasn't a 1.9 thread.
 

DeletedUser36624

Because the days of generating massive profits are dwindling. Hard to get profits outside of self lvl'rs that are guildless when it's a 1.8-1.9 dominated field even on those that can't reciprocate.
So what's the point of having an Arc? More medals? More blueprints?
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member
So what's the point of having an Arc? More medals? More blueprints?
To allow you to lose less and lvl GBs higher. If everyone is powerful no one is. It becomes a even ground (ish).

You can still get profit from the Arc. It's just less likely to be hundreds or thousands as often as it used to be due to the "normal" gravitating towards higher amounts of the profit going in to secure spots.

it also allows you to do more "spend X" RQ's to increase the profit margin
 
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DeletedUser34787

So what's the point of having an Arc? More medals? More blueprints?

For what it's worth, in my main city on the EN server I run through hoodies and friends every day and keep a tab of profits on their GBs. Throughout 2019, I've made 260FP/day in profit, or just over 30,000 FP. That's the point of having an Arc, even if it is reasonably time consuming (I check both lists first thing each morning and last thing before bed). Even if I'm not getting the huge amounts that people that got the Arc early or make a point of only befriending people who have Arcs in or around the highly profitable zone, having that extra income is ludicrously valuable.

I'd add that I'm only in PME so it's probably true that as I move up the concentration of L80 Arcs will increase and profits will dwindle, but even then my friends list should still be good for 100-150/day.
 

DeletedUser32328

So what's the point of having an Arc? More medals? More blueprints?
Those two things. But also:
- Opportunities for profit in my hood which I still find regularly
- If you contribute to an active 1.9 leveling thread, you'll get a lot of R'lyehs done
- I'm thinking of getting my Arc to lvl 81, which will give me a 1FP gain for every 500+ contribution. Already doing several of those a day, so that's a nice little bonus
- And finally, I wouldn't want to be a player who gains from other players who do have a level 80 Arc and not have or be working towards one myself.
 

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
If I am ever encouraged/forced to adopt a particular style or method of play in order to be "competitive" and I find that style or method to be boring, I'm outta there. My tolerance for boredom is next to nonexistent.

Example: I used to play a game that might cause players to shout "WoW!" (wink wink nudge nudge). My main character was a Warlock and I'd gotten him to level 49.6 when the level cap was 50. I grew so bored doing the same thing every day that I deleted my characters and closed the account.

To me, heavy RQ-ing would result in one less Inno account in fairly short order. I'd have to have some amount of variety to keep me playing.
 

Snarko

Active Member
I view Cosmic Raven's guide as a nice bridge between glaarg's guide and levelling Arc. I wasn't around when it was posted but finding it way later it was still very useful to GET to the point that I could level Arc to 80.

About the discussion of how much FP income to have when you level Arc, I believe my daily collection was around 80 FP. I did a level per day from 22 to 76. Giving (small) profit to top spots. Profits are smaller today but you can often get 1.9x investments or close to it making each level cheaper.
Of course if you're not looking for FP investments everywhere then you should consider if levelling Arc to 80 with such a low FP income is for you.


So what's the point of having an Arc? More medals? More blueprints?
It allows you to trade 1.9 investments with other people, which gives you near-unlimited bps and medals.
It allows you to profit from self levellers GBs, which can substantially increase your FP income even today. Maybe too much competition in VF? I don't know. I'm in LMA.
The main power is however trading 1.9 investments, because it can act like a multiplier to your FP. For some levels for every FP you put in others will put in 5. Imagine if Inno released a GB that says "multiplies daily FP income (all sources) by X". Crazy powerful, right? That's essentially what a lvl 80 Arc can do for you - as long as you have friends who have one too. The only GB that can come close to the power of The Arc is CF and that's if you spend hours upon hours doing quests every day. The Arc does not require a significant time investment, even if it greatly benefit from one (looking for profits).
 
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