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Abortion

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DeletedUser

I believe that abortion is the murdering of an innocent human life.

However:
It should be LEGAL because:
- If illegal, the woman will get one anyway illegally, if she doesn't want the child, and can't do adoption. And those "procedures" are bad news for her health.
- I don't want my taxes going to pay for welfare to people in poverty because they are forced to keep a child that they can't afford.

All the time and money currently being spent on debating and politics on this issue should instead be funding more reliable methods of birth control, like a pregnancy vaccination, that can be reversed when the parents are ready to have a child.
 

DeletedUser

The Mother has a lot of rights. She has the right to keep her legs closed and not to do the act that has been known for millions of years to cause babies. She has the right to buy herself birth control pills and take them. In fact, she has the right to use all manner of birth control. In fact, if there is an oopsy moment, I think most states allow the morning after pill.
You realise birth control is only about 96-97% effective right? If everyone took such levels of protection, that would still lead to an unwanted pregnancy for one in five thousand. For most people using only one form of birth control, that's a rate as high as one in 25-33.

So, if she doesn't exercise those rights and finds herself pregnant later on, the decision is not only hers at that point. The other life in her has rights too and yes, she may just have to trouble herself for a few months to give that life a chance. She can always give the baby up for adoption afterwards.
She can only give the baby up for adoption if she survives the risky nine months ;) Even then, our planet is already overpopulated, last thing we need is more mouths to feed.

The thing I really dislike about religious arguments on this topic is their reliance on obscure, old testament verses. I an fairly sure were Jesus around, he would forgive both the mother and father, remove all chance of health complications (i.e. abort the child) and give them penance. None of this "too bad mother, it's all your fault" demonising. At least Kirk was able to admit the former (for which I have huge respect +rep), his view was based on entrenched beliefs he felt he couldn't cone to change, rather than masquerading it as factual.
 

Liberty

Active Member
You realise birth control is only about 96-97% effective right? If everyone took such levels of protection, that would still lead to an unwanted pregnancy for one in five thousand. For most people using only one form of birth control, that's a rate as high as one in 25-33.

So? If you choose to have sex, there is a chance that the woman may become pregnant. Surely, that isn't news.

Which is why getting married used to be such a popular thing to do.

She can only give the baby up for adoption if she survives the risky nine months ;)

Oh, please. Women have been having babies since time began. If she is so worried about it though, there is one sure way to make sure she doesn't get pregnant and that is not to engage in the act THAT CAUSES pregnancy.

Even then, our planet is already overpopulated, last thing we need is more mouths to feed.
Then, don't have sex. It's ridiculous to attempt to justify murdering another living being because you are worried about overpopulation. If the person is so worried about that, then don't do the very act that causes pregnancy, or be sure protection is used. Regardless, actions have consequences and people need to own them.

The thing I really dislike about religious arguments on this topic is their reliance on obscure, old testament verses. I an fairly sure were Jesus around, he would forgive both the mother and father, remove all chance of health complications (i.e. abort the child) and give them penance. None of this "too bad mother, it's all your fault" demonising. At least Kirk was able to admit the former (for which I have huge respect +rep), his view was based on entrenched beliefs he felt he couldn't cone to change, rather than masquerading it as factual.
I didn't mention religion at all. You are the one who did.
 
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DeletedUser34

OHHHH I'd rep Liberty again if I could.....And THAT is that!!!!
 

Liberty

Active Member
I believe that abortion is the murdering of an innocent human life.

However:
It should be LEGAL because:
- If illegal, the woman will get one anyway illegally, if she doesn't want the child, and can't do adoption. And those "procedures" are bad news for her health.
- I don't want my taxes going to pay for welfare to people in poverty because they are forced to keep a child that they can't afford.
She can give the child up for adoption.

All the time and money currently being spent on debating and politics on this issue should instead be funding more reliable methods of birth control, like a pregnancy vaccination, that can be reversed when the parents are ready to have a child.
Feel free to empty your bank account and give it all to the government and ask them to do this. But, I would thank you to keep your hand out of my pocket.

Research should be left up to the market.
 

DeletedUser

I'm not asking for tax money to be spent on medical research.
I'm asking for all the money currently going towards pro-life, and pro-abortion advertising to fund medical research instead.
Adoptions should be left up to the market too. Highest bidders should get the cutest babies. :)
 

Liberty

Active Member
I'm not asking for tax money to be spent on medical research.
I'm asking for all the money currently going towards pro-life, and pro-abortion advertising to fund medical research instead.
Just where do you think this money came from?

Hint: The government has no money. They get it all, directly or indirectly, from the taxpayers.

How about letting the people who earned the money, keep more of their own money? Or, do we now believe, as so much of our government appears to believe, that they own our lives, our property, including our money, and if we act really nice, they will ALLOW us to keep a little of it?
 

DeletedUser

I'm talking about the money that private citizens DONATE to non-profit organizations like National Right to Life (pro-life) and NARAL (pro-choice). Those groups spend that money on advertisements and government lobbying.

Money could go instead to fund organizations like the Population Council's Center for Biomedical Research. (I spent forever just now trying to find an example organization... Just shows how little attention is given to the topic)

Also, if you're talking about the problems of government wanting to own our lives and property, wouldn't that also apply to the government controlling how we take care of our children? Why should the government have any say on how parents raise their children, or how a woman treats her unborn child?

Something to add to the debate that is rarely discussed:
If Abortion is illegal, what punishment should the mother face if she kills her child?
Should it be the same punishment as if she had killed her newborn baby?
 
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Liberty

Active Member
I'm talking about the money that private citizens DONATE to non-profit organizations like National Right to Life (pro-life) and NARAL (pro-choice). Those groups spend that money on advertisements and government lobbying.

Money could go instead to fund organizations like the Population Council's Center for Biomedical Research. (I spent forever just now trying to find an example organization... Just shows how little attention is given to the topic)
If you're talking about money that people have donated, then it probably should be spent on whatever the people who donated it wanted it to go to.

Also, if you're talking about the problems of government wanting to own our lives and property, wouldn't that also apply to the government controlling how we take care of our children? Why should the government have any say on how parents raise their children, or how a woman treats her unborn child?
I do agree that the government should get their noses out of a whole lot of things, but murder is not one of those things.

Something to add to the debate that is rarely discussed:
If Abortion is illegal, what punishment should the mother face if she kills her child?
Should it be the same punishment as if she had killed her newborn baby?
Yes. Murder is murder.
 

DeletedUser

This is one of those topics where you're right and they're right. The problem is that Pro-Life have a bad rep because of the Clinic bombings, Doctor killings and so on (Can you say Oxymoron?) that goes against the "Pro-Life" motto and teachings. On that note Pro-Life and Pro-Choice should actually be working together not against one another. What do I mean?

Pro-Life and Pro-Choice should actually be engaged in working together to help educate women on their "Rights" and their "Choices" rather then trying to argue who's wrong. If you don't want to get pregnant then you have choices in contraceptives or chastity. If it does happen while on some contraceptive then here are your choices. Education is the ONLY way we're ever going to reach any sort of solution.

Now in the case of rape the choice is and should always lie with the woman. It's her body and no one on this earth has the right to tell her what she must or will do. Educating her on her choices and walking her through them with a gentle hand and an open mind while allowing her to come to a choice that she is comfortable with is the only way to proceed.

While abortion is vile in all sense of the word and meaning it is her Constitutional right to choose. I believe in our Constitution and will never agree to give up any right whether I like it or not. Not to mention I'm a Man whom has never given birth or ever will. It's my opinion that if men were able to get pregnant there would be an abortion station at every Wal-Mart and CVS store across this great country. So while I may not agree with abortion I will die fighting for her rights and pray that she has been educated and is making the correct choice for her.
 

DeletedUser34

It still chaps me that a woman can abort a baby without the fathers consent, simply because she doesn't want a baby, even if he does. And yet, if the man knocks up a woman, but wants nothing to do with the baby, he gets stuck with child support, simply because the woman wanted to keep the baby. Go figure.
 

Liberty

Active Member
While abortion is vile in all sense of the word and meaning it is her Constitutional right to choose. I believe in our Constitution and will never agree to give up any right whether I like it or not. Not to mention I'm a Man whom has never given birth or ever will. It's my opinion that if men were able to get pregnant there would be an abortion station at every Wal-Mart and CVS store across this great country. So while I may not agree with abortion I will die fighting for her rights and pray that she has been educated and is making the correct choice for her.

You must have a different Constitution than I do. There is no constitutional right to murder.
 

DeletedUser

Okay Liberty, well here's the point that makes guys like you run away in the dark.

Lets just say that the 14th Amendment overturns Roe vs. Wade, could happen. Now we have outlawed abortion and it is now classified as murder.

Who's going to pay for your high morality? We are, the tax payers. According to the study at the University of California Santa Barbara it would cost each state approximately 35 million dollars per year for each state, almost 2 billion in new taxes, to enforce. that includes law enforcement, Prosecution and imprisonment. And since we're riding on your high horse we have to include all those that participated and conspired to help the young woman commit said murder. Of course deciding who to prosecute will be a huge problem not to mention having an entire jury of Pro-Lifers in order to secure a conviction.

While I understand your point and other pro-lifers I also look at the reality of the situation and the consequences of your moral high ground. The fact is I pay enough in taxes for useless law enforcement against things like marijuana that costs us about 75 billion per year. Adding your additional 2 billion to my already heavy tax burden? No thanks.

Tell you what, before you go out and save the rain forest and fight evil in every dark corner of the world start by cleaning your room, getting your education, getting married and raise a family then decide if it's worth pursuing. I have a feeling that once you experience life you'll realize some evils in this world are just necessary.

Nuff said!
 
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DeletedUser

Life is not a choice. At conseption life begins therefore its murder. I do not judge a woman that in a medical condition makes a life or death decision. Thats between her and her maker but to use abortion as a birth control is wrong, its murder.
 

DeletedUser

As medical science progresses, fetuses can survive outside the womb earlier and earlier in a pregnancy.
Perhaps someday, a woman can safely remove the embryo and put it in a jar, and whoever wants to adopt it, can take care of it from there.
 

lemonwedgie

Well-Known Member
Life is not a choice. At conseption life begins therefore its murder. I do not judge a woman that in a medical condition makes a life or death decision. Thats between her and her maker but to use abortion as a birth control is wrong, its murder.

Hmmm I don't know of any woman who decides NOT to have protected sex because its ok, she can get an abortion if she falls pregnant. Abortion is not a form of birth control and it never has been.
 

DeletedUser34

Hmmm I don't know of any woman who decides NOT to have protected sex because its ok, she can get an abortion if she falls pregnant. Abortion is not a form of birth control and it never has been.
You should broaden your reality then.
 

Liberty

Active Member
Okay Liberty, well here's the point that makes guys like you run away in the dark.

Lets just say that the 14th Amendment overturns Roe vs. Wade, could happen. Now we have outlawed abortion and it is now classified as murder.

Who's going to pay for your high morality? We are, the tax payers. According to the study at the University of California Santa Barbara it would cost each state approximately 35 million dollars per year for each state, almost 2 billion in new taxes, to enforce. that includes law enforcement, Prosecution and imprisonment. And since we're riding on your high horse we have to include all those that participated and conspired to help the young woman commit said murder. Of course deciding who to prosecute will be a huge problem not to mention having an entire jury of Pro-Lifers in order to secure a conviction.

While I understand your point and other pro-lifers I also look at the reality of the situation and the consequences of your moral high ground. The fact is I pay enough in taxes for useless law enforcement against things like marijuana that costs us about 75 billion per year. Adding your additional 2 billion to my already heavy tax burden? No thanks.

Tell you what, before you go out and save the rain forest and fight evil in every dark corner of the world start by cleaning your room, getting your education, getting married and raise a family then decide if it's worth pursuing. I have a feeling that once you experience life you'll realize some evils in this world are just necessary.

Nuff said!

1. I hate to burst your bubble, slick, but I am a woman with a Master's degree and I'm also not a child.
2. I am against the federal War on Drugs. It's a failed policy, it's unconstitutional and it's stupid, to boot. It should be returned to the states.
3. Are you honestly going to argue for murder, because you think it would cost too much money to enforce? Really?
 

DeletedUser

1. I hate to burst your bubble, slick, but I am a woman with a Master's degree and I'm also not a child.
2. I am against the federal War on Drugs. It's a failed policy, it's unconstitutional and it's stupid, to boot. It should be returned to the states.
3. Are you honestly going to argue for murder, because you think it would cost too much money to enforce? Really?

Again, Liberty, you've supplied nothing to back up any claim, just pure emotion and that's unusual with people like me who have advanced degrees. One would think that an educated person would be able to provide logic to a situation along with fact. But the main problem is that no one side is looking for a solution, just a way to point fingers and cry havoc.

And to answer your question, which I had already done: Yes, it would cost to much. It's cold. It's callous, but it's true. The burden your morality would have on the justice system would be devastating. Unless you can show how we can prosecute the right people without burdening the justice and penal system as well as not raise taxes 2 billion dollars a year or more and not impede a woman's right to choose between her life and that of fetus or have to suffer 10 months with a child that was forced upon her.

You're only response and point to this entire debate has been "Abortion is Murder". So let me take that away from you. During the first trimester embryo is no more conscious than a kidney or spleen. To back up my point:

1. The neurons must be sufficiently mature to develop an action potential, that is, the electrical inequality from one end of the cell to the other which allows a charge to pass through the cell.

2. It helps if the myelin sheaths of nerves have developed. Without that insulation, nerve cells cannot transmit the charge from one end of the nerve cell to the other without it being attenuated, interfered with, or lost. This is why demyelinization diseases are so devastating.

3. The body must be producing neurotransmitters; these chemicals allow the charge from one neuron to be transmitted across the interstitial spaces between cells. Without the presence of neurotransmitters, each neuron is isolated.

And we know roughly when these things start to happen in the developing fetus, although it varies slightly from one to the next. But based on that, we can say that there is definitely NOT anything like a fully working nervous system before week 20, although spontaneous, disconnected neural activity can be observed starting about week 17 -- but spontaneous, disconnected neural activity of precisely the same sort can be observed in people in a mostly brain-dead, vegetative state, so I do not think that can count as "consciousness" in a logically consistent system.

A fetus will start responding to sound about week 21-22, so at that point we know that perception at some basic level is hooked up. And by week 36, there is certainly some rudimentary consciousness, although even the consciousness of a full term newborn is pretty primitive in terms of processing stimuli and making any sense of what is going on around it. So your best bet for pinpointing "beginning of consciousness" would probably be, somewhere in the weeks 21-36, as vague as that is. But there is no reason to think that consciousness is like flipping a switch, first it isn't there and then suddenly it is! It's far more likely that it is like tuning in an analog radio; lots of static, and then, as you slowly rotate the dial, more and more snippets of coherence, finally becoming enough of a coherent signal to say that you have something. Function will just "fade in" as the systems supporting that function mature.

And because I supply facts: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise
 

Liberty

Active Member
Again, Liberty, you've supplied nothing to back up any claim, just pure emotion and that's unusual with people like me who have advanced degrees. One would think that an educated person would be able to provide logic to a situation along with fact. But the main problem is that no one side is looking for a solution, just a way to point fingers and cry havoc.
Does it usually work for you to be demeaning, rather than have a logical debate? Usually what that means is that the person realizes they have lost the argument.

I have posted a number of times in this thread. Feel free to go back and read them.

And to answer your question, which I had already done: Yes, it would cost to much. It's cold. It's callous, but it's true. The burden your morality would have on the justice system would be devastating. Unless you can show how we can prosecute the right people without burdening the justice and penal system as well as not raise taxes 2 billion dollars a year or more and not impede a woman's right to choose between her life and that of fetus or have to suffer 10 months with a child that was forced upon her.
Sorry, but that is illogical.

No one forced her to do anything. Unless she was raped, the woman willingly engaged in an act known for centuries to create babies. So, it should not be a shock to anyone if a baby is the result of said actions.

As far as your prosecutorial quandry, I suppose the easiest thing would be to go after the doctors who commit the murder.

You're only response and point to this entire debate has been "Abortion is Murder". So let me take that away from you. During the first trimester embryo is no more conscious than a kidney or spleen. To back up my point:

1. The neurons must be sufficiently mature to develop an action potential, that is, the electrical inequality from one end of the cell to the other which allows a charge to pass through the cell.

2. It helps if the myelin sheaths of nerves have developed. Without that insulation, nerve cells cannot transmit the charge from one end of the nerve cell to the other without it being attenuated, interfered with, or lost. This is why demyelinization diseases are so devastating.

3. The body must be producing neurotransmitters; these chemicals allow the charge from one neuron to be transmitted across the interstitial spaces between cells. Without the presence of neurotransmitters, each neuron is isolated.

And we know roughly when these things start to happen in the developing fetus, although it varies slightly from one to the next. But based on that, we can say that there is definitely NOT anything like a fully working nervous system before week 20, although spontaneous, disconnected neural activity can be observed starting about week 17 -- but spontaneous, disconnected neural activity of precisely the same sort can be observed in people in a mostly brain-dead, vegetative state, so I do not think that can count as "consciousness" in a logically consistent system.

(Remainder of attempt to justify murder, snipped)


It is a life after conception. There is no denying that. Only shallow attempts at justifying murder.

If you do not want a baby, either don't do the act known to cause them, or use good protection and be responsible for your choices if it doesn't work.

Oh, and by the way, the word you were looking for was "your".
 
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