DeletedUser35426
It's not wisdom, Salsuero. It's more closer to exploiting poor game system. Anyway, I don't see any real argument from you. Looks like you just want to waste time on futile debate.
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Either add a One Down Kit or change the One Up Kit to a One Up/Down Kit
It's not wisdom, Salsuero. It's more closer to exploiting poor game system. Anyway, I don't see any real argument from you. Looks like you just want to waste time on futile debate.
Graviton
Well-Known Member
What's futile about debate? That's the entire point of this thread, to discuss and debate the merits of a proposal.
As far as "real arguments" go, your original argument was an admission that a one-down kit would be bad, but there are other things worse. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. Then there was something about your game being broken if you don't have champions from the previous era. You somehow managed to go an entire age without current-age champions, but when you advance suddenly your game is broken? Absurdity.
DeletedUser31882
LoL. You are playing this game for years, looking how your city growing, you are getting achievements, putting diamonds, participating events... And at some point you understand, that at start, when you were young and knew nothing, you did a wrong step. And you just can't make it right. Wrong GB you can delete, wrong buildings you can delete and build right, but you can't build old CR. And you just say: hey, it's all cool, make a fresh start
Are you a real person Volodya? Or you are a troll. I've heard there is a special factory for production comments like this
Eh, from what I've seen not a troll but maybe indoctrinated with the current game design.
I agree with the sentiment of the argument I believe you are meaning to make. The game rewards the grand strategist who has the information ahead of time and I think that is what people are defending. I can understand that point of view and I don't think it is necessarily 100% wrong.
Another component to this issue is how the kit would effect non military special buildings. Lots of people could lower T.farms down to cost less population but have the same FP production. Same with goods. Those will get conflated, thanks to the proposal.
I am not sure if anyone has proposed a one-down kit of Military only special buildings (I guess, that would be champs retreat only?). I think some have suggested the Champ's retreat's age could be selected, but that met with some resistance as well if I recall. Not sure if that made it to voting.
Are these 'better' people being penalized by the proposed change? Then why penalize others because others were ignorant of poor game design? @NuzGooL isn't arguing about choice, but game design flaws. Champ Retreat acquisition is flawed, when we look at its place in FoE's overall design.
The Champ retreat 'strategy' is very unique in the game and it is the only building that can be 'missed' if a player does not force themselves to camp until they get lucky from an event, DC or diamond deal to obtain it before moving up an age. T.farms, etc don't count in this category as everything they produce have alternative ways of being produced. There is no alternative to produce lower age champs once a player ages up and loses the opportunity to obtain that age's Retreat. Other military unit barracks can be built as you move up in age or have no age association. The question becomes, was this design on purpose to push players to camp (Evidence of DC, events, etc would point to no) or is it a design flaw that could be remedied with a creative idea, like a limited use item that could be bought with diamonds.
This isn't about undo buttons or mistakes. It's about pointing out the flaw in the system and finding a solution.
Two different arguments. The one-down kit, as 'proposed', has some balancing issue concerns, especially with T.Farm productions.
The Champ Retreats? That's a different animal. GvG and PvP towers make each age champ a unique resource. It makes no logical in game sense that Champions of the future could not be outfitted with lower age tech to ride into battle like the poor people of a tomorrow age city handing spears out and telling them to charge some Eel looking unit.
Thoughts on proposal:
Nope. Wasn't going to bother with it til the more interesting Champ Retreat discussion/shouting started.
Not much use for one-down kits other than Max/mining T.farm good/fp production or champ retreats. I'd support a proposal that allowed a Champ retreat's age to be selected (Only harm that I see is to the pride of the people who did it the hard way and some of those players wanting to monopolize GvG with them) or maybe having the Champ Retreat's age selected when it is being placed (Thus making the store building item the limited item for changing the age of a Retreat).
Salsuero
Well-Known Member
Agree to disagree.
That is a game decision the same as any other. So you would say that well I chose not to camp, but I want the same benefit as people who do camp, even though they lose something by camping that I did not. Bah! Agree to disagree again.
I disagree. I believe that's exactly what it's about... regret. You play a certain style, you get benefits and consequences of playing that certain style. Everyone does. I don't think you should be allowed to all of a sudden decide you want something you didn't plan for earlier. So... one-down kit ONLY for Champion's Retreat? If that's a proposal, I might be able to sign on to that just because there's a unique situation, but only if it's allowed once per Retreat. I think that's fair. If you miss one in one age, make sure you get one in that next age and one-down it before moving up again. Fair? I can't imagine under what circumstances it would be given out as to not be mostly useless to most people. But, I'm sure that can be figured out. Maybe to limit their uselessness, they could also apply to individual unattached Champions. They'd be about as useful as Self-Aid Kits at that point for most people, but we all still keep getting loads of those.
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DeletedUser29726
I would say Terrace Farms count as well. While alternate ways exist, past a certain age they're far less efficient than terrace farms. Right now I wish i could run a whole bunch of AF terrace farms in OF, but I only own two. I really did not anticipate trading down to AF in OF would be more difficult than trading down to FE in AF was. Similarly trading down to CE is a pain as well, so if i was going to make them the 'normal' way i'd need twice the goods building and about 3-4 times the population. This is not terribly different in the ages where you 'want' a champion as there's always an alternate unit that just might not be quite as good for the situation. But twice as many of that alternate unit would probably do the trick in the same way that spending twice the space on goods buildings would allow me to make AF goods.
As for the nonexistence of a one-down kit i'd say it philosophically meshes with trying to push people to keep advancing. They want us to believe that everything is better as you keep going up and there should be no reason to want previous age buildings over current age ones. Ignoring GvG and lack of goods market fluidity they're mostly right. I don't anticipate them changing their position on this despite how often we've begged for one-down-kits unfortunately. But just in case "yes please! i'd love a one down kit".
Salsuero
Well-Known Member
Absolutely not. There's no reason to downgrade a Terrace Farm unless it's specifically to gain the benefit of 5 FPs for lower population or to generate lower age goods. Both are an abuse of the system.
This is part of the consequence of playing a game. You make mistakes. You strategize incorrectly. And you have to live with the results of your choices. If you guess right, you get the reward of doing so.
DeletedUser29726
abuse of what system exactly? if a one down kit was to exist it would be to explicitly allow the behavior. currently it does not exist and the only way to stock up on a particular age of GE/event rewards is to camp the age. Does that make camping the abuse?
Obviously you continue on with the situation you're in. And sometimes you have regrets. That doesn't mean i wouldn't LIKE a 1 down kit for terrace farms and potentially champ retreats. And I hardly see a good reason the game should encourage camping lower ages 'to not miss out'. If anything, 'normal' play is to just continue advancing ages as it feels natural - and one shouldn't be punished for that in any way.
DeletedUser26965
Honestly I don't even think IG did. The tiered ages and Special Goods have created what I believe may be an unsustainable model the longer it continues but I'm not quite sure on that because I don't have access to the same data they do so it's only theoretical at this point. I think they will at some point have to either blow the model up entirely and start some new way of advancing through the ages, or open up world trade, or trading special goods, or this one down thing, or even possibly setting ages for GB's, I don't know but something is going to change eventually I think along those lines.
DeletedUser29726
Well I wouldn't go so far as to say unsustainable - it slows me down, but it doesn't stop me. It does make for very weird economics though. I will certainly be better prepared to not have easy access to OF goods before i leave it.
DeletedUser21322
This has now been moved to forge hall as a proper proposal has not been created. If someone would like to create one we would be happy to have this back in the proposal section of the forum.
Agent327
Well-Known Member
DeletedUser30900
The only reason AF goods is that rare is that OF is the highest age. Once VF lands on real servers, the price of OF goods gonna go up and problem gonna get solved for a while until OF goods become the rare resource.
Agent327
Well-Known Member
I think AF is rare, cause nobody had a clue how much promethium they needed, so they kept sending that boat. In OF they wised up.
DeletedUser29726
My theory:
AF was the first age that was undervalued while people were bunched up in it (due in part to a lack of a GvG outlet). It wasn't til the Orangery that it had trade value at all. The memory of it being worth squat stayed with people as they went to OF. Why would anyone have trouble acquiring AF, that junk is everywhere!
And then everyone left AF
People still wanted Orangeries
The stockpiles drained
Meanwhile OF started off on the same foot as AF only even faster as people had developed their chateaus further.
Kraken breathed life into the value of OF goods like Orangery did AF
Unlike FE which had many holdouts who wanted their arc goods to be worth something, noone felt there was a reason to stay in AF so the server as a whole was without much in the line of producers. And the ones that do exist are in a hood of their own creating a market fluidity problem.
The only thing that might possible stop OF goods from meeting the same fate in VF is the change to the first point : we'll now remember that AF goods skyrocketted in value in the months after OF's release. And perhaps we'll have plans in place to not meet the same fate when it comes to the expected OF shortages months down the road.
AF was the first age that was undervalued while people were bunched up in it (due in part to a lack of a GvG outlet). It wasn't til the Orangery that it had trade value at all. The memory of it being worth squat stayed with people as they went to OF. Why would anyone have trouble acquiring AF, that junk is everywhere!
And then everyone left AF
People still wanted Orangeries
The stockpiles drained
Meanwhile OF started off on the same foot as AF only even faster as people had developed their chateaus further.
Kraken breathed life into the value of OF goods like Orangery did AF
Unlike FE which had many holdouts who wanted their arc goods to be worth something, noone felt there was a reason to stay in AF so the server as a whole was without much in the line of producers. And the ones that do exist are in a hood of their own creating a market fluidity problem.
The only thing that might possible stop OF goods from meeting the same fate in VF is the change to the first point : we'll now remember that AF goods skyrocketted in value in the months after OF's release. And perhaps we'll have plans in place to not meet the same fate when it comes to the expected OF shortages months down the road.
Triopoly Champion
Active Member
Camp in Colonial Forever is the best idea, CA Champions have the best defense stats, the same as the heavy units.
Salsuero
Well-Known Member
Which is why it shouldn't exist at all. I only offered a compromise that suggested Champions only since it appears to be a very special case. I'm not saying I agree with allowing it, but I'm not trying to be 100% uncompromising either. But Terrace Farms are simply production buildings, though very strong ones. I'm not in favor of enabling one-down kits at all. Camping isn't an abuse. It's a slower gameplay. There are drawbacks to advancing fast just as there are perks. The same can be said of camping. Neither style is better than the other in a game with no winner and no ending, and neither style is abuse. Asking to get the same benefits retroactively of people who work more slowly and methodically in their choices to advance in age than you basically gives you a major benefit over them. Working slowly gives you a different set of pros and cons to working quickly. You don't wanna work slowly and you have your justifications for that.
Zatrikon
Well-Known Member
VF? What's VF stand for? Volcanic? Venus? Virtual Reality?
DeletedUser26965
I didn't say it is currently just that...
I have done fine for trading down OF to AF for all of OF, slow as it may be, as well but the current model cast out in the future seems unsustainable. I'm comfortable saying I could be wrong about that as we're all working off of very limited data sets but the numbers are going to get quite large especially once into the Age after VF where if the current model exists, as it looks to be, you'll need Promethium, Orichalcum, the VF Special Good, and the "X"F Special Good for that one age and that's just the Special Goods.