gbg

[DevaCat]

It doesn't much matter what we think. Inno is doing so for their own reasons. Anything beyond their published statement, is pure speculation.

"You may ask why we made this change. Quite simply, we believe this re-balance is necessary for the long-term sustainability and viability of the feature. We always envisioned attrition to be an important factor. Previously, these province buildings could be stacked to the extent — that when an adjacent province is conquered — guilds could effectively completely nullify the chance of receiving attrition. Stacking Siege Camps and Watchtowers, therefore, became too powerful and caused significant balancing issues between different guilds and players.

In addition, it was something often remarked upon by our communities and players, who participated in Guild Battlegrounds. We even had this same suggestion polled on different occasions, with players voting overwhelmingly for a change to the Watchtower and Siege camp ability formula.

For those very reasons, we have decided to re-balance..."


Slow down GBG seems to be the goal.

Congrats for being a PITA that you finally got invited to the dance. Enjoy it while it lasts. Sounds like slow dancing once this goes live.

Glad to see, after all your verbiage, that you agree that the effect will be to slow down the game. My only speculation is that the net effect will be a slow down of game play, most notably in sub-diamond level play which is already slow before any of the anticipated changes are made. My question - which you conveniently dodged, was whether the slow down in those levels of play was really going to be good for an already slow game - in those levels. The complaints, the abuse and the noise is all to do with diamond level play, and contrary to your opinion, I am free to speculate about anything I want to.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

All my verbiage? That comment was my second sentence. I also didn't dodge anything. I'm just not going to speculate beyond Inno's statement. I was pretty clear that our thoughts and opinions matter not, Inno is doing this for reasons known only to Inno.

However, I did resift through all your verbiage to find your question,

Y’all think that’s going to be good for the game?

I don't know, I don't care. My opinion means nothing. The only thing relevant is that Inno thinks it's going to be good for the game, as Inno said in "all that verbiage."

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

My only speculation is that the net effect will be a slow down of game play, most notably in sub-diamond level play which is already slow before any of the anticipated changes are made. My question - which you conveniently dodged, was whether the slow down in those levels of play was really going to be good for an already slow game - in those levels. The complaints, the abuse and the noise is all to do with diamond level play

So you're worried about an already slow game in sub-Diamond levels getting slower, which is questionable to begin with, but you then state that all the "complaints, the abuse and the noise" is about the Diamond level. What I get out of that is that the "already slow game" at sub-Diamond levels is not a problem for players. Further, the complaints I've seen have never been about GBG's "slowness" at any level. In fact, the opposite is more prevalent among complaints. Players complain that GBG moves too quickly for them to participate, either because the enemy is too quick to take sectors, or their guild mates are too quick and hog all the encounters in a sector. The only complaint that could conceivably be interpreted as about "slowness" is the ones about being locked up by more powerful guilds, but that complaint is usually characterized by the complaining party as about "fairness", not "slowness".

On a side note, I don't understand why anyone would play this game for any length of time and then complain about "slowness" in the first place. If someone wants a fast paced game, this isn't it.

 

[Sharmon the Impaler]

I did 4 tests during the past 3 seasons on GbG (average of 5 runs each). 1st test only hitting 2SC sectors up to failure = 361 fights , 2nd 3 SC = 585 fights , 3rd 4 SC = 1102 , 4th 4 + SC + = 1200 and got fed up and logged out on 3 of the runs.

 

[DevaCat]

All my verbiage? That comment was my second sentence. I also didn't dodge anything. I'm just not going to speculate beyond Inno's statement. I was pretty clear that our thoughts and opinions matter not, Inno is doing this for reasons known only to Inno.

However, I did resift through all your verbiage to find your question,

I don't know, I don't care. My opinion means nothing. The only thing relevant is that Inno thinks it's going to be good for the game, as Inno said in "all that verbiage."

You don’t know and you don’t care. And yet you continue to opine, repeating the same points you have been putting out here since this thread began, contributing nothing new.

I put out no speculations regarding Inno’s intent; that’s your straw man.

And you are right about one thing - your opinion means nothing - to me.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

I put out no speculations regarding Inno’s intent; that’s your straw man.

Then what was the screed about people getting off the beach, slowing leagues you're not in, if not speculation? That's the straw man. Talking about issues not in evidence.

your opinion means nothing - to me.

Nor yours to me. Point?

 

[DevaCat]

So you're worried about an already slow game in sub-Diamond levels getting slower, which is questionable to begin with, but you then state that all the "complaints, the abuse and the noise" is about the Diamond level. What I get out of that is that the "already slow game" at sub-Diamond levels is not a problem for players. Further, the complaints I've seen have never been about GBG's "slowness" at any level. In fact, the opposite is more prevalent among complaints. Players complain that GBG moves too quickly for them to participate, either because the enemy is too quick to take sectors, or their guild mates are too quick and hog all the encounters in a sector. The only complaint that could conceivably be interpreted as about "slowness" is the ones about being locked up by more powerful guilds, but that complaint is usually characterized by the complaining party as about "fairness", not "slowness".

On a side note, I don't understand why anyone would play this game for any length of time and then complain about "slowness" in the first place. If someone wants a fast paced game, this isn't it.

Slowness after the projected changes take place of course, or do you simply choose to misinterpret? Sub-diamond play is already glacially slow as it is, as players are limited in their progress by attrition - as it is now. For the few who actually build siege camps, the change would slow their already slow progress. What’s so hard to understand? Note that I have never come down on whether that slow down is a good or a bad thing - to find out we will have to see what happens when it goes live. I do question the ultimate effect on the game and that’s my speculation. Now if you think my take on the potential effect of the changes on sub-diamond is questionable, that’s fine - make your case.

The players in beta who complain about things being too fast in gbg are talking about diamond level play - and my point is in spite of their professed concern about players in lower leagues, they are only concerned with their own experience in diamond league. But again, you distort what I said about slowness - which had nothing to do with any diamond level play. Again, it looks like the changes will slow down the play in diamond level - and whether or not that’s going to be a good thing for the game remains to be seen.

And on a side note: your final swipe was out of line. Nowhere did I complain about the game being slow. You can disagree with me, but at least be honest about it.

 

[DevaCat]

Then what was the screed about people getting off the beach, slowing leagues you're not in, if not speculation? That's the straw man. Talking about issues not in evidence.

Nor yours to me. Point?

Not unusually, you completely missed the point. The point of the “screed” about a guild getting off the beach - through multiple forts and high attrition - was to show that the guilds complaining about “bullies” and such do have an alternative - they can fight for it. But you wouldn’t know about that, as you were basically a parasite while in the guild I was speaking of. Granted, it was your self-described ge farm city, which could excuse much, but no guild aids - really? No increasing your treasury buildings? You even refused to max level the SoH you had because, as you posted here shortly after gbg began, there was nothing in it for you. Even though you were showered with fragments to do so, at no cost to you.

So no, I don’t give a damn about your opinions about anything.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Slowness after the projected changes take place of course, or do you simply choose to misinterpret?

No, I didn't misinterpret. Did you not understand my post?

Sub-diamond play is already glacially slow as it is, as players are limited in their progress by attrition - as it is now.

What level of GBG do you play? I'm curious, because the only sub-Diamond league I've been in that I would possibly characterize as "glacially slow" is Copper League. Each succeeding higher league gets more action, in my experience. From the And being limited in your progress by attrition, as it stands now, has more to do with the guild rather than which league it is. Or do you think that only Diamond league guilds build Siege Camps? And speaking of "glacially slow", isn't that what happens to the weaker guilds in Diamond now, partially due to the strong guilds getting by with little to no attrition?

For the few who actually build siege camps, the change would slow their already slow progress. What’s so hard to understand?

Well, since the change would equally affect everyone in the sub-Diamond levels, it's not a given that it would slow anyone's progress relative to everyone else. I mean, given 11 days, even with 66% reduced attrition as a cap, a guild could still march their way across the map if they were determined to do so. And if the complaints about not getting fights in is any indication, in a lot of guilds the progress would be just as fast with more players being able to contribute, thus spreading the attrition around. Again, I'm curious as to what level(s) of GBG you play, because it sounds like you're just speculating about the sub-Diamond leagues rather than speaking from experience.

Now if you think my take on the potential effect of the changes on sub-diamond is questionable, that’s fine - make your case.

I believe I am.

The players in beta who complain about things being too fast in gbg are talking about diamond level play - and my point is in spite of their professed concern about players in lower leagues, they are only concerned with their own experience in diamond league. But again, you distort what I said about slowness - which had nothing to do with any diamond level play. Again, it looks like the changes will slow down the play in diamond level - and whether or not that’s going to be a good thing for the game remains to be seen.

Where did I say that your comments on slowness had anything to do with Diamond level play? Nowhere, that's where. I'm starting to think that you really didn't understand my post. I agree with what you say about the players in Beta who complain. My point is that none of the lower league players have shown up to complain about any problem with slowness, so the game slowing down in the lower leagues being a problem is a huge leap in logic. In my mind it is an incredibly huge leap because my experience in the lower leagues contradicts the idea that the game is "slow" there, with the exception of Copper League.

Note that I have never come down on whether that slow down is a good or a bad thing - to find out we will have to see what happens when it goes live. I do question the ultimate effect on the game and that’s my speculation.

Well, not in so many words you haven't, but your "verbiage" is clearly slanted to the idea that slowing down the game in GBG is a bad thing. Terms like "glacially slow", and "slowing down an already slow game" say more about your perspective than you apparently realize.

To be clear about my position, I believe that if they make this change to GBG, it will definitely slow down Diamond League play to some extent. It may also slow some play in the lower leagues, but for those that don't build Siege Camps now, it won't change at all. And I believe that slowing down Diamond League play will definitely be good for the game overall, just not for those heavily farming GBG as it is now. A side effect that I just realized is that it will make Treasury goods less of an issue (and less of an advantage to some extent) for GBG. That is because guilds will naturally be building fewer Siege Camps at every level, given the 66% cap.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

So no, I don’t give a damn about your opinions about anything.

Angry little man aren't you? Sorry the activity in my diamond farm didn't meet your standards.

You even refused to max level the SoH you had because, as you posted here shortly after gbg began, there was nothing in it for you.

This is a flat out lie. I was never asked so I didn't refuse. I just never bothered. Still haven't. I also argued the exact opposite of what you claim many times here on the Forum. I've never deleted a post, feel free to prove me wrong. You can't.

While there have been many complaints about "bullies" I've never been one of them. I've consistently argued the opposite. Here too, feel free to prove me wrong, here too, you can't.

Do you think it makes your argument stronger to lie about other players? Hint, it doesn't. It just makes you a liar and a fool for doing it.

 

[DevaCat]

No, I didn't misinterpret. Did you not understand my post?

What level of GBG do you play? I'm curious, because the only sub-Diamond league I've been in that I would possibly characterize as "glacially slow" is Copper League. Each succeeding higher league gets more action, in my experience. From the And being limited in your progress by attrition, as it stands now, has more to do with the guild rather than which league it is. Or do you think that only Diamond league guilds build Siege Camps? And speaking of "glacially slow", isn't that what happens to the weaker guilds in Diamond now, partially due to the strong guilds getting by with little to no attrition?

Well, since the change would equally affect everyone in the sub-Diamond levels, it's not a given that it would slow anyone's progress relative to everyone else. I mean, given 11 days, even with 66% reduced attrition as a cap, a guild could still march their way across the map if they were determined to do so. And if the complaints about not getting fights in is any indication, in a lot of guilds the progress would be just as fast with more players being able to contribute, thus spreading the attrition around. Again, I'm curious as to what level(s) of GBG you play, because it sounds like you're just speculating about the sub-Diamond leagues rather than speaking from experience.

I believe I am.

Where did I say that your comments on slowness had anything to do with Diamond level play? Nowhere, that's where. I'm starting to think that you really didn't understand my post. I agree with what you say about the players in Beta who complain. My point is that none of the lower league players have shown up to complain about any problem with slowness, so the game slowing down in the lower leagues being a problem is a huge leap in logic. In my mind it is an incredibly huge leap because my experience in the lower leagues contradicts the idea that the game is "slow" there, with the exception of Copper League.

Well, not in so many words you haven't, but your "verbiage" is clearly slanted to the idea that slowing down the game in GBG is a bad thing. Terms like "glacially slow", and "slowing down an already slow game" say more about your perspective than you apparently realize.

To be clear about my position, I believe that if they make this change to GBG, it will definitely slow down Diamond League play to some extent. It may also slow some play in the lower leagues, but for those that don't build Siege Camps now, it won't change at all. And I believe that slowing down Diamond League play will definitely be good for the game overall, just not for those heavily farming GBG as it is now. A side effect that I just realized is that it will make Treasury goods less of an issue (and less of an advantage to some extent) for GBG. That is because guilds will naturally be building fewer Siege Camps at every level, given the 66% cap.

I have one city playing in high diamond gbg, else I would not comment on the play at that level. I have another city which, like you have also done, I run as a solo guild. I have had experience in that city from copper to diamond - it’s currently in the one below platinum I think, I’d have to check, gold? You might guess that it’s not that important to me.

My experience in that city is that progress in those lower levels is indeed very slow, up through gold very slow. If I cared to devote the time and resources, I could skip days and then do a surge to take top spot. That’s not bragging, that’s simply an indication of the slowness and the competition at those levels. But with all your experience, you already know that right?

In platinum my experience has been mixed - sometimes a guild is intent on getting into diamond and is willing to spend and do what it takes, and they naturally gravitate to the top in that season. But I have been in other platinum seasons where the other guilds don’t want to do that. No aspersion on them - we each have different goals.

No, I have not seen siege camps built often in the lower leagues, usually not until gold, and never in great quantities, but I do think the changes will slow down the game for those who do. You believe evidently that since everyone would be affected by the change therefore there is no foul. I believe what Inno is about to do is a meat cleaver rather than an adjustment.

Lower league players showing up to complain about slowness of play - are you for real? They would complain about how unfair it was they had to compete against all those bully fast guilds. I don’t think my question regarding slowing down sub-diamond play is a “huge leap in logic”, but keep knawing on it and I’m sure you will find a new approach to refute anything I’ve said.

 

[DevaCat]

Angry little man aren't you? Sorry the activity in my diamond farm didn't meet your standards.

This is a flat out lie. I was never asked so I didn't refuse. I just never bothered. Still haven't. I also argued the exact opposite of what you claim many times here on the Forum. I've never deleted a post, feel free to prove me wrong. You can't.

While there have been many complaints about "bullies" I've never been one of them. I've consistently argued the opposite. Here too, feel free to prove me wrong, here too, you can't.

Do you think it makes your argument stronger to lie about other players? Hint, it doesn't. It just makes you a liar and a fool for doing it.

No not angry, just no longer willing to accept your maga q—anon bs. Anyone who cares can verify what I stated. I have never put anyone here on ignore, but your complete lack of logic, lack of — jeez I’m done.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Lower league players showing up to complain about slowness of play - are you for real? They would complain about how unfair it was they had to compete against all those bully fast guilds.

Ummm, no, they aren't complaining about slowness of play, they're complaining about unfairness. If you check back in my posts, I've already stated that fact. And if they're complaining about "all those bully fast guilds", then they're complaining about Diamond League, not the lower leagues, because Diamond League is where "all those bully fast guilds" are.

You believe evidently that since everyone would be affected by the change therefore there is no foul. I believe what Inno is about to do is a meat cleaver rather than an adjustment.

I believe that below Diamond League pretty much everyone will be affected. In Diamond League the "bully fast guilds" will be affected most, which is exactly what needs to happen for game balance, both between guilds and also from the aspect of the excessive farming of resources that is currently happening. It's only a meat cleaver to those heavily into farming GBG, for everyone else it's an adjustment. Your "verbiage" tells me which you are.

 

[DevaCat]

Ummm, no, they aren't complaining about slowness of play, they're complaining about unfairness. If you check back in my posts, I've already stated that fact. And if they're complaining about "all those bully fast guilds", then they're complaining about Diamond League, not the lower leagues, because Diamond League is where "all those bully fast guilds" are.

I believe that below Diamond League pretty much everyone will be affected. In Diamond League the "bully fast guilds" will be affected most, which is exactly what needs to happen for game balance, both between guilds and also from the aspect of the excessive farming of resources that is currently happening. It's only a meat cleaver to those heavily into farming GBG, for everyone else it's an adjustment. Your "verbiage" tells me which you are.

Once again, you cherry-pick what you choose to respond to. I have never seen anyone so intent on getting in the last word. Your distraction, deflection and distortion of what I have written is disappointing but not unexpected. The only reason I have not put you on ignore like Pirate is that in the past you have played fairly straight with facts. You accuse me of something of which you have no clue. You believe everyone below diamond league will be pretty much affected (what I have been saying). You also believe that the “bully fast guilds” will be affected most (no argument there), but then you jump to the argument that this needs to be done for “game balance between guilds” and because of what you consider to be “excessive farming of resources.”

I hope I have made it clear, I don’t give a damn about game balance between guilds - the balance is entirely up to them. And what you consider to be excessive farming - that is really just your opinion now, isn’t it? As has been repeatedly pointed out, we know nothing of Inno’s intent until it happens. And you have no idea about how heavily I am into diamond level gbg. I somehow expected better from you.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Once again, you cherry-pick what you choose to respond to. I have never seen anyone so intent on getting in the last word. Your distraction, deflection and distortion of what I have written is disappointing but not unexpected. The only reason I have not put you on ignore like Pirate is that in the past you have played fairly straight with facts. You accuse me of something of which you have no clue. You believe everyone below diamond league will be pretty much affected (what I have been saying). You also believe that the “bully fast guilds” will be affected most (no argument there), but then you jump to the argument that this needs to be done for “game balance between guilds” and because of what you consider to be “excessive farming of resources.”

I hope I have made it clear, I don’t give a damn about game balance between guilds - the balance is entirely up to them. And what you consider to be excessive farming - that is really just your opinion now, isn’t it? As has been repeatedly pointed out, we know nothing of Inno’s intent until it happens. And you have no idea about how heavily I am into diamond level gbg. I somehow expected better from you.

@Johnny B. Goode isn't jumping to anything. Here is the relevant paragraph from Inno's announcement:

"You may ask why we made this change. Quite simply, we believe this re-balance is necessary for the long-term sustainability and viability of the feature. We always envisioned attrition to be an important factor. Previously, these province buildings could be stacked to the extent — that when an adjacent province is conquered — guilds could effectively completely nullify the chance of receiving attrition. Stacking Siege Camps and Watchtowers, therefore, became too powerful and caused significant balancing issues between different guilds and players."

INNO was pretty clear about their intent. No more opportunity for zero attrition. While you may "not give a damn about game balance", INNO surely does (and many other players I suspect).

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

And what you consider to be excessive farming - that is really just your opinion now, isn’t it?

Well, no, not when the amount of farming is bragged about by multiple players. And not when that is the complaint of players who see the possibility of their golden goose going away. It appears to be the opinion also of the people doing it from those two facts.

Your distraction, deflection and distortion of what I have written is disappointing but not unexpected. The only reason I have not put you on ignore like Pirate is that in the past you have played fairly straight with facts.

I do play straight with the facts. The only distraction, deflection and distortion here is from you. I don't jump to any conclusions, I just respond to what you've written. Such as:

You believe everyone below diamond league will be pretty much affected (what I have been saying). You also believe that the “bully fast guilds” will be affected most (no argument there), but then you jump to the argument that this needs to be done for “game balance between guilds” and because of what you consider to be “excessive farming of resources.”

As @Pericles the Lion points out, Inno pretty clearly stated that this is needed. And given that the most common thing complained about from GBG is balance between guilds, and furthermore given that there has been open bragging about the massive amounts of resources that can be farmed from GBG, there is no leap at all required to reach the conclusion I reached.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

No not angry, just no longer willing to accept your maga q—anon bs. Anyone who cares can verify what I stated. I have never put anyone here on ignore, but your complete lack of logic, lack of — jeez I’m done.

Ooh, such a flex. Declaring yourself a loser then putting me on ignore. Thanks for making my day!

we know nothing of Inno’s intent until it happens.

They declared their intent when they announced the changes on Beta. If ignorance is bliss, you must be a very happy man.

 

[honey55]

I've tried lots of guilds. My experience in platinum is that normally most guilds are just interested in farming. There are many times swaps between 2 or more guilds. One time they even tried to include all the guilds. We were one big happy family. Swaps tend to be a mixed blessing and sometimes a curse. Tiles are many times held hostage for hours. Sometimes we clipped our own wings trying to stay in platinum. In diamond leagues many times certain players got most the fights. When a low attrition sector opened, if announced, You were lucky to get a few fights. You pretty much had to be on most the day if you wanted to get fights in. There was normally no hurry to take a sector, yet the top fighters would still get most the fights. They're using guild goods, so in my view they should give other players a chance to get more fights. They can sit out a fight or two or they can get their own guild and use their own goods. Just my opinion. At any rate, I found I was competing more with my guildmates than another guild. A top guild invited me join before this season started. I declined. We're up against them and 2 other top guilds this season. I can easily see they do not need me as a fighter at all. Makes me wonder if I'm just wanted for my goods. Another small guild I know is also up against 3 top guilds they can't compete against. Why are the 6 top guilds not up against each other? Can we get out? Sure. But can we get to a sector with 3 SCs? I think it happened once so far while I was sleeping. The first day, we were over half done with a sector that should have given us 3 and a top guild came from way behind and took it in probably 5 minutes. If it was really a competition to win the season, I would say, do it. Since it's really just farming, they could have let us have it. I wouldn't enjoy any card game if some one let me win. But, I don't see gbg as a competition to win most the time. I see it as farming. I see it many times as a greed fest. I'm for the nerf. I want to see what it does. The game isn't likely going to be slower than this season is for us. I go to over 90 attrition before getting off every night but with so few SCs have less than 400 fights. Maybe also with the nerf, those who can go to 100 attrition will actually have an advantage over those who can't. I wish gbg could actually be a competition but am afraid to many changes would be needed to make that happen.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

Thank you honey55 for your post.
In defense of players who do not 'give' fights to weaker players.. One needs to remember those top players were also once weaker players, and they paid their own dues. This have never been a Kumbaya sort of experience.
And one of the top Guilds problems is having too many weak Guilds in the mix in GbG. even trying to share.. the weak Guilds canot fill sectors even with many extra hours of waiting.

Right now on one World we have a Guild that has just managed very recently to become a possible real partner. they are a little slower, but have been managing to do the job, where even a few seasons ago they would never have been able to. And no one else gave them anything. they did it on their own. as one would expect. It is true they do complain about us taking nearly the entire board at opening.. Since we can and do so in twenty minutes or less..
Part of what happened to that emerging Guild is confidence. When it is hard, a lot of players give up. They get the idea there is no chance. but when things get even a little better, they start to get engaged and willing to play harder! and then get better and start wining instead if getting cornered.

As for 'wanting you for your goods. that is silly. They want you because they think you have, or might have what takes to be a good player.

PS a top Goods player is generating 3,000 to 4,000 Goods or more day automatically to the Treasury. Plus anytime asked thousands if specific Goods found and donated when needed. (in my Guilds some not all, players cough up ten K or 50 K of specific Goods with no problem)
So if you are making that sort of quantities daily for the Treasury. Then ?? maybe they do want you for your Goods. LOL

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

As for 'wanting you for your goods. that is silly. They want you because they think you have, or might have what takes to be a good player.

As a long time player who has seen many sides of guilds, it definitely is not silly. It is quite possible that his goods are exactly what they want him for. Especially since they are a top guild and apparently have plenty of fighters already. I remember back when GvG was the only thing, lots of guilds that already had enough players to fight looked specifically for players able and willing to be the farmers providing the goods. It is very likely that this also happens with GBG. Do they only want him for his goods? Maybe, maybe not. But they may primarily want him for his goods, which could translate into him not getting nearly as many fights as he does now with a lesser guild. It was undoubtedly a good decision on his part not to accept the invitation.