"Kraken" defense challenge

[Johnny B. Goode]

I am starting this thread for those who want to follow the developments in the road to the Kraken Defense Challenge battles between myself and @Wyldon on the new world of Dilmun.

One thing to be aware of, my in-game name is Stephen Longshanks. Why it doesn't match my Forum name is a long story.

One thing I would ask @Wyldon to agree on is to not collect the extra Castle points until after the challenge is over. With negotiations and the occasional battle it will be hard enough to keep the Castle System boosts out of the equation, or at least to a minimum. Also, when the time comes to actually fight, we should agree that neither one of us will have the Tavern 4 hour boosts active (or any other optional boosts.)

I am currently still in Bronze Age. I do not plan on spending Diamonds on this world. I do not plan on fighting any more than I have to (which is the exact opposite of my normal play style) until the Challenge battles. I plan on updating my progress towards HMA in this thread, and ask that @Wyldon does the same.

Can't think of anything else at the moment, so let's get going!

 

[Jackshat]

No boosts is the idea. Will update as I enter a new age...

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

No boosts is the idea. Will update as I enter a new age...

No boosts is the ideal, but practically it might be difficult to keep the Castle System from reaching at least level 1. We'll see. New territory for both of us. Should be fun, no matter what the outcome.

 

[Jackshat]

Should be, if we don't make it personal. I'd like to see just how tough the Kraken is...in case past attackers truly weren't that skilled...

 

[Jackshat]

Iron Age...

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Iron Age...

 

[Jackshat]

IA completed, but will stay here a spell to develop and test Kraken with IA troops. May give early insights into what we can expect by the time we reach HMA with equal boosts (or close enough to be inconsequential)...

 

[Jackshat]

Just chugging along in IA. Nothing to do, but gather, for now. A 20% boost Kraken defense is on guard--has been attacked once...lost.

But, it was to a high-ranked Kraken (relatively-speaking) with 7.6x the att boost and 2.5x def boost. He lost four heavies. Haven't seen him since...

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Just chugging along in IA. Nothing to do, but gather, for now. A 20% boost Kraken defense is on guard--has been attacked once...lost.

But, it was to a high-ranked Kraken (relatively-speaking) with 7.6x the att boost and 2.5x def boost. He lost four heavies. Haven't seen him since...

The quickest way to test your defense hypothesis would be to age up to EMA and set a PvP defending army with your "Kraken" defenders. Your army will get attacked 5x daily there. Some attackers will be HMA+, and won't count, but many should be EMA.

 

[xivarmy]

The quickest way to test your defense hypothesis would be to age up to EMA and set a PvP defending army with your "Kraken" defenders. Your army will get attacked 5x daily there. Some attackers will be HMA+, and won't count, but many should be EMA.

You only get to see the first 5 defenses a day. And you don't get to see the battle itself to know why your defense won/lost.

PvP Arena also works on a different AI - one like you see in many continent map zones.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

You only get to see the first 5 defenses a day. And you don't get to see the battle itself to know why your defense won/lost.

PvP Arena also works on a different AI - one like you see in many continent map zones.

I completely agree, but....

The OP's hypothesis is that a 3 Arty 5 Heavy defense in HMA (his Kraken defense") is nearly undefeatable when attacked. Since the test is of the effectiveness of the defense, PvP would provide a proper venue. I agree that the AI for PvP defense is similar to that in the Continent Map (i.e. it targets actual units rather than rogues) but this is what an actual player would generally do. Also, actually seeing the battle is not really necessary to prove/disprove the hypothesis...either the defense works or it doesn't. "Why" isn't part of the test.

 

[xivarmy]

I completely agree, but....

The OP's hypothesis is that a 3 Arty 5 Heavy defense in HMA (his Kraken defense") is nearly undefeatable when attacked. Since the test is of the effectiveness of the defense, PvP would provide a proper venue. I agree that the AI for PvP defense is similar to that in the Continent Map (i.e. it targets actual units rather than rogues) but this is what an actual player would generally do. Also, actually seeing the battle is not really necessary to prove/disprove the hypothesis...either the defense works or it doesn't. "Why" isn't part of the test.

His hypothesis wasn't that it was a catch-all, it was that it was the way to defend against one, popular style of attack given similar stats.

Because 8 artillery on attack absolutely beats heavies + less artillery (at similar stats)

The premise was that there was something you *could* do against an evenly matched X + rogues attacker to turn hood attacks into a game of rock paper scissors where each day you can change your defense, and the attackers don't know what it is, so if you pick the defense that challenges their attack, you win.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

His hypothesis wasn't that it was a catch-all, it was that it was the way to defend against one, popular style of attack given similar stats.

Because 8 artillery on attack absolutely beats heavies + less artillery (at similar stats)

The premise was that there was something you *could* do against an evenly matched X + rogues attacker to turn hood attacks into a game of rock paper scissors where each day you can change your defense, and the attackers don't know what it is, so if you pick the defense that challenges their attack, you win.

Here is the post that started it all:

From @Wyldon
"For those in HMA who still enjoy the challenge of city defense, but are stymied by rogue armies, try 3 artie and 5 heavy in city defense. You DO NOT need a massively superior boost advantage, just a comparable one. You WILL neutralize rogues before they can do any harm. And, if your boosts are comparable to your attacker, you'll likely be well on your way to earning a successful city defense badge. I think this setup was so successful for me, with comparable boosts, because attackers were so accustomed to an automatic rogue army victory, they either forgot how, or never learned how, to attack without rogues."

 

[xivarmy]

Here is the post that started it all:

From @Wyldon
"For those in HMA who still enjoy the challenge of city defense, but are stymied by rogue armies, try 3 artie and 5 heavy in city defense. You DO NOT need a massively superior boost advantage, just a comparable one. You WILL neutralize rogues before they can do any harm. And, if your boosts are comparable to your attacker, you'll likely be well on your way to earning a successful city defense badge. I think this setup was so successful for me, with comparable boosts, because attackers were so accustomed to an automatic rogue army victory, they either forgot how, or never learned how, to attack without rogues."

Right, that it "neutralizes rogues", not that it beats everything imaginable

 

[Jackshat]

Thanks, xivarmy. You completely understand. It's not a hypothesis; it's empirically proven. Goode and I will just eliminate the boost advantages to see how it fares against skilled attackers, in the event my past defenses had no skilled attackers.

That said, I got hit by a rogue army with 140 ish att, but comparable 20 defense. As expected with the shortened map, rogues were in shadow realm range after their first move. Kraken can not defend at this range. But, despite the attacker's boost advantage, my goal is the same: find a defense that eliminates two of the rogues terror tactics...if it's even possible at the shortened range in IA...

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Right, that it "neutralizes rogues", not that it beats everything imaginable

OK, so it's a defense that only works against a limited array of attackers. What's the point? We don't get to choose how we get attacked. Regardless, my point was that the hypothesis can be tested in the PvP Arena.

 

[Jackshat]

OK, so it's a defense that only works against a limited array of attackers. What's the point? We don't get to choose how we get attacked. Regardless, my point was that the hypothesis can be tested in the PvP Arena.

The point is precisely what xivarmy, and I, have stated: if one wishes to keep using the legendary heavy-rogue army, and the defender's boosts are comparable to the attacker's, it's no longer an automatic victory for the attacker against this defense. It did what it what it was designed to do--it just had great success against other attacker's, too. None of us in HMA at the time had astronomically high boosts, so battles were usually fairly balanced--especially if you could negate the rogues advantages when they were on the field.

Surely you don't line up the same attack or defense against an enemy with comparable boosts, where you have no hope of winning...you'd ADJUST to defeat the attack you KNOW they're likely gonna send. They may change their attack next time to defeat the new defense, but that rogue army will not work anymore.

Stuffing their favorite attack was well worth the effort for one determined to find a solution to the legend of a heavy-rogue attack...not whine about the advantages it brings an attacker.

 

[xivarmy]

OK, so it's a defense that only works against a limited array of attackers. What's the point? We don't get to choose how we get attacked. Regardless, my point was that the hypothesis can be tested in the PvP Arena.

And it can't, because the AI is different. Arena is a different battle meta accordingly (though similarly, one that doesn't matter because it's all decided on attempts bought with diamonds, not who the better attacker is )

---

The point isn't an unbeatable defense (if such is possible at some point that's an issue of its own), but whether or not an unbeatable attack exists (without relying on a stat advantage). I think everyone in the thread recognizes it's not *worthwhile* to invest in defensive stats given how few people attack, how collecting on time is sufficient protection, and how much space you'd have to devote to even just match a dedicated attacker's stats.

The question is whether there's anything that can be done *at all* against a specific attacker. If there is for any given attack, then defense is at least a game of rock, paper, scissors rather than a completely futile effort.

i.e.

Day 1: let's say the attacker's favorite is indeed a heavy + 7 rogue autobattle. and let's say that wyldon is able to beat that (or at least do enough damage to make the attacker go "damn, that wasn't worth it at all").

Day 2: being a smart, dedicated attacker he comes back with 8 artillery. And since it's established that that beats wyldon's favorite defense, maybe he wins (if wyldon hasn't changed his defense yet, because a lot of attackers won't adapt so changing defense immediately would probably be folly)

Day 3: being an active defender, wyldon does change his defense to 8 fasts. the attacker comes back with 8 artillery (because much like attackers being stuck in their habit, so are most defenders) and loses.

Day 4: now having been established that both attacker and defender are adaptable, the game of rock paper scissors begins in earnest. Does the attacker change to heavy + rogues to beat the fasts he saw yesterday? Does wyldon change the army that just won assuming the attacker will have adapted or does he stay pat because he assumes the attacker assumes he'll change it up?

 

[Pericles the Lion]

So, the premise is that a defender can successfully defend against an attacker with comparable boosts if he is able to anticipate what the attacker is likely to do and adjust his defending army to best defend against the anticipated new attack army. Got it.

 

[xivarmy]

So, the premise is that a defender can successfully defend against an attacker with comparable boosts if he is able to anticipate what the attacker is likely to do and adjust his defending army to best defend against the anticipated new attack army. Got it.

That is the hood game yes If anyone much cared to play it anymore

These 2000% boosts are a relatively recent thing As recently as when OF was new, 200% was *excellent* boost