"Kraken" defense challenge

[Emberguard]

Regardless, my point was that the hypothesis can be tested in the PvP Arena.

PvP Arena completely ignores Rogues whenever possible. City Defense goes out of its way to target Rogues.

PvP Arena is useless for this experiment if we’re looking to transform Rogues: the algorithm already ignores Rogues.

 

[Jackshat]

That is the hood game yes If anyone much cared to play it anymore

These 2000% boosts are a relatively recent thing As recently as when OF was new, 200% was *excellent* boost

Indeed...and I stopped playing it long ago, too. Muchadoboutnothin, now.

Nevertheless, I'm done with this whole thing. My time is better spent elsewhere.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Since @Wyldon has also messaged me in-game that he is abandoning the challenge, I have set my city on Dilmun for deletion.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

I must say that I am disappointed. And I have two comments about the "Kraken" defense discussion. First, strictly speaking boosts make much more difference than army makeup. Without sufficient boosts, even the best matchup won't go well (which is probably what happened to those attacking the "Kraken" defense). Conversely, attacking with sufficient boosts will overwhelm any defense. Secondly (and this is based on years of manually and auto battling with Rogues), the best feature of Rogues is not their attack rating, it is their ability to absorb the first hit with no damage. You combine that with the city defense AI's practice of hitting Rogues first and you end up with the "Rogue army" being very hard to beat without building up your city defense boosts. And, as most experienced players have learned, that's still a losing proposition given the much more efficient use of city space for other purposes than defense.

To summarize, the Kraken defense was successful due more to its boosts than to its makeup. Anyone who fights manually a lot, especially in the lower eras, knows that. (If you remember back to all those players coming to the Forum over the years to complain that they can't beat a defense with similar boosts, then you know I'm right.)

 

[xivarmy]

I'm disappointed as well that it never actually made it to testing. I expected the result to be that the heavy + rogues did still manage to win, but lost most of the attacking army. And both sides claiming a small victory in that (see, i won anyways; see, I did good damage).

The advantage artillery have against rogues is that while you can't tell your defense to not turn them, artillery doesn't lose as much in losing a shot - in situations it's good in in lower ages it's planning to get 3+ shots before the other side gets 1. Where your typical unit that hits a rogue first basically just wasted its alpha strike in turning a rogue and now whatever that rogue turned into will hit them back.

But yes, trying to keep up with the attackers in boost these days is ultimately a waste of a whole lot of space and without being at least close in boost, you're never going to pose a serious risk to any attacker - unless that's the sum of enjoyment you get from the game, seeing people fail to attack you (but alas that too is an issue these days, because it's not typically worth the time to attack either! Your typical hood hit is worth less than a GBG autobattle).

 

[Jackshat]

Don't worry, it's back on, Goode. You at least had the courage to show up to test what you believe against what i actually experienced.

You deserve the chance to prove your knowledge would defeat what you haven't faced. I'll congratulate you if you do. If you don't, I'd like you to set up the defense so I can try it.

Beyond that, I'll not banter with anyone about what they think they know...the proving ground to test your skills when you don't have superior boosts is in Dilmun. Either show up, or shut up...

 

[Jackshat]

I must say that I am disappointed. And I have two comments about the "Kraken" defense discussion. First, strictly speaking boosts make much more difference than army makeup. Without sufficient boosts, even the best matchup won't go well (which is probably what happened to those attacking the "Kraken" defense). Conversely, attacking with sufficient boosts will overwhelm any defense. Secondly (and this is based on years of manually and auto battling with Rogues), the best feature of Rogues is not their attack rating, it is their ability to absorb the first hit with no damage. You combine that with the city defense AI's practice of hitting Rogues first and you end up with the "Rogue army" being very hard to beat without building up your city defense boosts. And, as most experienced players have learned, that's still a losing proposition given the much more efficient use of city space for other purposes than defense.

To summarize, the Kraken defense was successful due more to its boosts than to its makeup. Anyone who fights manually a lot, especially in the lower eras, knows that. (If you remember back to all those players coming to the Forum over the years to complain that they can't beat a defense with similar boosts, then you know I'm right.)

You'll see your conclusion is purely conjecture. But, that's why the challenge to begin with. This will leave no doubt...

 

[xivarmy]

Don't worry, it's back on, Goode. You at least had the courage to show up to test what you believe against what i actually experienced.

You deserve the chance to prove your knowledge would defeat what you haven't faced. I'll congratulate you if you do. If you don't, I'd like you to set up the defense so I can try it.

Beyond that, I'll not banter with anyone about what they think they know...the proving ground to test your skills when you don't have superior boosts is in Dilmun. Either show up, or shut up...

Good luck I look forward to hearing results

 

[Jackshat]

I'm disappointed as well that it never actually made it to testing. I expected the result to be that the heavy + rogues did still manage to win, but lost most of the attacking army. And both sides claiming a small victory in that (see, i won anyways; see, I did good damage).

The advantage artillery have against rogues is that while you can't tell your defense to not turn them, artillery doesn't lose as much in losing a shot - in situations it's good in in lower ages it's planning to get 3+ shots before the other side gets 1. Where your typical unit that hits a rogue first basically just wasted its alpha strike in turning a rogue and now whatever that rogue turned into will hit them back.

But yes, trying to keep up with the attackers in boost these days is ultimately a waste of a whole lot of space and without being at least close in boost, you're never going to pose a serious risk to any attacker - unless that's the sum of enjoyment you get from the game, seeing people fail to attack you (but alas that too is an issue these days, because it's not typically worth the time to attack either! Your typical hood hit is worth less than a GBG autobattle).

Again, you see it clearly. If I recall, only one HI runs into a rogue. I reckon I could try a 4-treb, 4-heavy set-up, but that wasn't the base defense I used. So, we'll stick with the 5-3.

After all is said and done, if Goode is willing, I'm curious to see what 5-light, 3-trebs would do. I always feared they'd advance much too far up the battlefield. Trying to remember when the melee actually started...

But, this will be the time to find out...

 

[Pericles the Lion]

PvP Arena completely ignores Rogues whenever possible. City Defense goes out of its way to target Rogues.

PvP Arena is useless for this experiment if we’re looking to transform Rogues: the algorithm already ignores Rogues.

I thought that the intent was to test a HMA 3 Arty 5 Heavy defense against neighborhood attackers (many of which include rogues). I agree that the PvP AI ignores rogues (unless they are the only units in range) but experienced real players also ignore rogues, leaving them until last whenever possible. My point is that the PvP attacking AI replicates real player attack behavior pretty closely.

 

[Jackshat]

Will enter EMA shortly...no sense dillydallying about in ages with no personal history to refute/prove...

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Don't worry, it's back on, Goode.

Alrighty then. But we're going to test it with varying attack army boosts. I'll attack at first with as close to the same as possible, then up them with each attack. Not sure how I'll work that out in practice, but getting a few attack boost buildings from the Winter Event and then holding them in inventory should do it.

I thought that the intent was to test a HMA 3 Arty 5 Heavy defense against neighborhood attackers (many of which include rogues). I agree that the PvP AI ignores rogues (unless they are the only units in range) but experienced real players also ignore rogues, leaving them until last whenever possible. My point is that the PvP attacking AI replicates real player attack behavior pretty closely.

No, the intent was to test @Wyldon's statement (based on his experiences) that the 3 Trebuchet/5 Heavy Infantry defense would stop a Rogue army. My contention (based on my general fighting experience) is that it was his boosts that made the defense work and not the makeup of it. That's why I now intend to test it with gradually increasing attacking army boosts. As for using the PVP Arena for testing, as has been stated the defending AI there doesn't work like the city defense AI, so the results would be irrelevant to both of our positions.

 

[Jackshat]

Alrighty then. But we're going to test it with varying attack army boosts. I'll attack at first with as close to the same as possible, then up them with each attack. Not sure how I'll work that out in practice, but getting a few attack boost buildings from the Winter Event and then holding them in inventory should do it.

No, the intent was to test @Wyldon's statement (based on his experiences) that the 3 Trebuchet/5 Heavy Infantry defense would stop a Rogue army. My contention (based on my general fighting experience) is that it was his boosts that made the defense work and not the makeup of it. That's why I now intend to test it with gradually increasing attacking army boosts. As for using the PVP Arena for testing, as has been stated the defending AI there doesn't work like the city defense AI, so the results would be irrelevant to both of our positions.

No problem.

 

[Jackshat]

In HMA. I really enjoyed this age; this time I'll stay!

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

You're already in HMA and I'm still weeks away from getting into EMA. This was always going to be a throw away city for me, and frankly it's not looking like the effort is going to be worth it. By the time I get to HMA and have enough Rogues and regular units to start this test (not to mention waiting until we're in the same hood), I'll have forgotten why we started this. So I've set my city there for deletion (again), and this time it's me calling off the challenge.

Note to Forum staff: You can close this thread.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

The neighborhood reset today. If @Wyldon attacks all of his neighbors, I would expect more than a few will retaliate and provide him an opportunity for a test under real conditions.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

The neighborhood reset today. If @Wyldon attacks all of his neighbors, I would expect more than a few will retaliate and provide him an opportunity for a test under real conditions.

That's uncontrolled conditions. Testing something means controlling the conditions to eliminate as many variables as possible. Hoping random neighbors will attack won't mean anything more than his original experience did.

 

[Jackshat]

That's uncontrolled conditions. Testing something means controlling the conditions to eliminate as many variables as possible. Hoping random neighbors will attack won't mean anything more than his original experience did.

...won't mean anything more than ANYONE'S experiences, outside controls to decide definitively. That we can agree on. (Of course, it stopped the rogue attacks where once they used to succeed, regardless of relative boosts. )

I'll be staying. I'll keep track of attacker boosts for a spell, then increase boosts to match their averages.

Since not many will be on steroids with unbeatable attacks in HMA, I'll leave the Kraken up and let it face comparable attacker boosts. That should be fun for them...and me. Anyone can win with beefed up stats, rogue army, or not...

 

[Jackshat]

The neighborhood reset today. If @Wyldon attacks all of his neighbors, I would expect more than a few will retaliate and provide him an opportunity for a test under real conditions.

Been there, done that. What other "real conditions" did you have in mind? It matters not. I'm staying in Dilmun, and HMA. Show up, or shut up, P...

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

One thing this little interlude reinforced for me was how much more efficient it is to build up fighting capacity/boosts rather than relying on goods production for advancement. That's the real reason I'm abandoning the challenge. Without spending Diamonds it's too much bother trying to get to HMA without having the boosts to be able to fight effectively. As far as the challenge itself, regardless of assertions, everyone who's fought much at all knows it's all about the boosts. Without them the matchups don't matter.