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More diversity in representation

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Agent327

Well-Known Member
Pocahontas was a Native American. If you were familiar with US culture, you would know that the term "Indian" is no longer considered accurate when talking about anyone but those from India.

The amount of blatant racism being displayed in response to this thread is disheartening to say the least.

Blatant racism? Only disheartening here is you deleting everything that is showing you are wrong. You might consider the term "Indian" no longer accurate. Your government does.

https://www.ihs.gov/

https://www.bia.gov/

and not just your government

https://americanindian.si.edu/

So calling me a racist is nothing more than being a biggot yourself.

These are perfectly normal arguments. Nothing racist about them. Deleting them cause you do not agree is more racist than my remarks.
 

DeletedUser33179

I agree with the starter that more diversity in the avatars hurts nothing.

I think the message could have been worded better though. It does read more like a social commentary with the words she choose.

I think much of the comments would have been different if she'd written her proposal to say: "hi, I'm a more dark skinned indian. Could we have some avatars that reflect that?"

Totally agree with this.
 

DeletedUser

Blatant racism? Only disheartening here is you deleting everything that is showing you are wrong. You might consider the term "Indian" no longer accurate. Your government does.

https://www.ihs.gov/

https://www.bia.gov/

and not just your government

https://americanindian.si.edu/

So calling me a racist is nothing more than being a biggot yourself.

These are perfectly normal arguments. Nothing racist about them. Deleting them cause you do not agree is more racist than my remarks.
I have edited my post that you quoted to make it more clear that the remark about racism was not directed at you. My apologies for not making that clearer originally.

As far as the term "Indian", you'll notice that I said in "US culture", which is not always the same as government websites, which are notoriously slow to catch up on these things.
 

ODragon

Well-Known Member
I mean, seriously, even if you believe that the OP wasn't worded the absolute best possible way, you can't really believe that it deserved the type of vitriol that followed. Can you?

Not in the slightest can I believe it based on the words used, nor can I believe anyone cared that much on the actual topic at hand. The topic was mild and just asking for more avatar colors.

I think that's part of the reason that some games just let you design your own avatar, then you make it what you want and they don't have to worry about upsetting anyone.
 

DeletedUser33179

Honestly, I think the comments would not have been much different no matter how the OP was worded. Some people just seem to trigger at the slightest mention of any issue involving different ethnicities.


Unfortunately, in my experience some people trigger at any mention of anything at all having to do with ethnicity. What's sad is that when the shoe is on the other foot, they are outraged if they don't get the benefit of the doubt as far as how they word things. I mean, seriously, even if you believe that the OP wasn't worded the absolute best possible way, you can't really believe that it deserved the type of vitriol that followed. Can you?

And yet, such people also deserve the chance to say how they feel & subsequently over time (through repeated practice & feedback) learn other potential methods of expressing themselves in the most effective way for varied circumstances. We're all a work in progress.
 

DeletedUser31540

I am a History Major - though i was a thoroughly mediocre student - too much gaming :/

Anyways i consider myself more ‘worldly’ than most yet i am still woefully ignorant of so many things

Indian History (and asian history as a whole) is one such field that i know practically nothing about

This thread has piqued my interest and ive spent about an hour reading various articles and wiki pages on ‘indian skin color’ over the past couple days

The issue runs deep and dates back to ancient times and was heightened by an order of magnitute when the British Empire came to power in the region

@Beaded Rhino i think is spot on by stating that the portraits represent traditonal “beauty” standards that only a small % of indians actually look like ... this subtle reinforcement of what “indian beauty” should look like Is disheartening ... especially considering that the game sells itself in part on cultural and historical accuracy

Maybe we shouldnt be suprised as Inno Games is a Western Company so they could very well be ignorant of the issue as well !

How would you feel if you played a historical game and when the the game chose to cover your cultural roots it left you feeling marginalized rather than empowered ? Not good i would imagine.

My suggestion to IG is that they leave the portraits untouched but they take greater care and pay more attention to detail when covering different cultures in the future
 
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DeletedUser

And yet, such people also deserve the chance to say how they feel & subsequently over time (through repeated practice & feedback) learn other potential methods of expressing themselves in the most effective way for varied circumstances. We're all a work in progress.
Yes, we are all a work in progress, which is exactly why such blatant racism must always be called out emphatically when it rears its ugly head. And it's not about expressing themselves in the most effective way, it's about them learning that racism is unacceptable no matter how it is expressed. The OP merely asked that depictions of women from her culture be portrayed more realistically. Period. And she was attacked and accused of the very thing that these other posters were actually guilty of. (A favorite tactic of racists, by the way.) And not only did they attack her at length with their racist views, they persisted even when told they were wrong and it was inappropriate. They deserve no consideration whatsoever, as they have clearly shown that on the subject of race they are unteachable.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
This thread has piqued my interest.
As it has mine. You may have found some info regarding this, I've not.

Based on the comments about the 18th (1700's) and 19th (1800's) century portraits of the 17th (1600's) century rulers found online, I can't seem to find out what their accurate skin tone was. Critiques of applying western standards seem to be modern applications based on the difference between the predominate skin tones of Indians today and those represented in the portraits.

Let's face it, people roam, people mix, people mingle, and various empires rose, fell, came, and went before the British arrived. The first British ships didn't arrive in India until about 1600, actual British rule wouldn't be established for another 150 years. Royals especially had a habit of intermingling, even across cultures to keep the royal blood, royal. I'm not going to start researching Indian ruling bloodlines, but that would have a large effect on skin tone, especially among the ruling class.

Just compare the skin tones of Sub-Saharan Africans with those of Sub-Saharan African descent. Look at someone from Senegal or Nigeria today compared to an American black and the skin tones are vastly different. That change, which continues today, happened in a few hundred years, much of it in just the last 2-3 generations.

DNA testing, (23andMe, Ancestry and the like) has shown there's been far more roaming, far more mixing, and far more mingling than anyone ever imagined. For instance, the New Zealand Maori people, tracing backwards, came there from Easter Island, coming there from Northern Peru, having migrated down from Central America, after having left Persia during the Persian Empire and sailing West to escape constant war. All in the Maori oral history, now proven with DNA. Just little bits of Persian remaining mixed with lots of new bits gathered along the way.

The examples go on and on, which is the inherent problem with revisionist terms like 'white washing'. If I were to paint a portrait of Oprah Winfrey and 100 years from now all we have are photos of today's average Nigerian, I'd be accused of serious 'white washing' and adapting Oprah's skin tone and features to comply with current 'westernized' beauty standards. OR Oprah actually looked like that and was just a mutt like everyone else.

Thandie Newton, Halle Berry, Barack Obama, all mixed, all mingled, and all thoroughly 'white washed' as a result. That's DNA, not artistic interpretation and 400 years hence, whose going to know what's what compared to the predominate skin tones of the time.

Anyway, if you dig up information on the predominate skin tone among the Indian ruling class circa 1670, let me know. Not that it matters much in regards to adding new avatars, my perspective is more avatars = more diversity = more fun. But it is relevant to show why dumb terms are dumb and why it's dumb to use dumb terms.
 

DeletedUser33179

Yes, we are all a work in progress, which is exactly why such blatant racism must always be called out emphatically when it rears its ugly head. And it's not about expressing themselves in the most effective way, it's about them learning that racism is unacceptable no matter how it is expressed. The OP merely asked that depictions of women from her culture be portrayed more realistically. Period. And she was attacked and accused of the very thing that these other posters were actually guilty of. (A favorite tactic of racists, by the way.) And not only did they attack her at length with their racist views, they persisted even when told they were wrong and it was inappropriate. They deserve no consideration whatsoever, as they have clearly shown that on the subject of race they are unteachable.

I don't at all condone the views & behavior expressed. I do applaud the persistence of all those who continue to give reasoned responses entirely refuting it. And, I also greatly like those attempts to try to make this a Teachable Moment in some way for whomever cares to learn (whether they end up being folks who are actively participating in this thread or only lurking).
 

Agent327

Well-Known Member
I have edited my post that you quoted to make it more clear that the remark about racism was not directed at you. My apologies for not making that clearer originally.

As far as the term "Indian", you'll notice that I said in "US culture", which is not always the same as government websites, which are notoriously slow to catch up on these things.

You quoted me, so the remark was directed at me. Government websites are part of "US culture".

Narrangasset Indians still call themselves Indians and not Native Americans.

http://narragansettindiannation.org/

Are they slow to catch up also? Saying that woukld be an insult and maybe even racism, don't you think?

Your apologies are not accepted.
 
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DeletedUser33179

As it has mine. You may have found some info regarding this, I've not.

Based on the comments about the 18th (1700's) and 19th (1800's) century portraits of the 17th (1600's) century rulers found online, I can't seem to find out what their accurate skin tone was. Critiques of applying western standards seem to be modern applications based on the difference between the predominate skin tones of Indians today and those represented in the portraits.

Let's face it, people roam, people mix, people mingle, and various empires rose, fell, came, and went before the British arrived. The first British ships didn't arrive in India until about 1600, actual British rule wouldn't be established for another 150 years. Royals especially had a habit of intermingling, even across cultures to keep the royal blood, royal. I'm not going to start researching Indian ruling bloodlines, but that would have a large effect on skin tone, especially among the ruling class.

Just compare the skin tones of Sub-Saharan Africans with those of Sub-Saharan African descent. Look at someone from Senegal or Nigeria today compared to an American black and the skin tones are vastly different. That change, which continues today, happened in a few hundred years, much of it in just the last 2-3 generations.

DNA testing, (23andMe, Ancestry and the like) has shown there's been far more roaming, far more mixing, and far more mingling than anyone ever imagined. For instance, the New Zealand Maori people, tracing backwards, came there from Easter Island, coming there from Northern Peru, having migrated down from Central America, after having left Persia during the Persian Empire and sailing West to escape constant war. All in the Maori oral history, now proven with DNA. Just little bits of Persian remaining mixed with lots of new bits gathered along the way.

The examples go on and on, which is the inherent problem with revisionist terms like 'white washing'. If I were to paint a portrait of Oprah Winfrey and 100 years from now all we have are photos of today's average Nigerian, I'd be accused of serious 'white washing' and adapting Oprah's skin tone and features to comply with current 'westernized' beauty standards. OR Oprah actually looked like that and was just a mutt like everyone else.

Thandie Newton, Halle Berry, Barack Obama, all mixed, all mingled, and all thoroughly 'white washed' as a result. That's DNA, not artistic interpretation and 400 years hence, whose going to know what's what compared to the predominate skin tones of the time.

Anyway, if you dig up information on the predominate skin tone among the Indian ruling class circa 1670, let me know. Not that it matters much in regards to adding new avatars, my perspective is more avatars = more diversity = more fun. But it is relevant to show why dumb terms are dumb and why it's dumb to use dumb terms.


Several paragraphs of utter nonsense.

Humans are inevitably becoming Whiter based on your piss-poor interpretation of genetics & false assumptions that humankind must be wanting progressively widening inter-racial procreation over the centuries?? Therefore, there can't ever be "white washing" behavior if we're all actually getting whiter???

Absolute drivel.

Let me be the one to break it to you, sweetie.... If your closed-minded & slyly simplistic assumptions about genetics & math & human behavior were actually the primary factors in your pathetic scenario of how humans will look as the centuries pass, then all of us - including your descendents - would eventually appear some range of majority asian/dark-skinned african. There currently is & has always existed literally billions more of them compared to any other race. The mathematical majority bits of DNA will prevail?! Not that it matters much, right.

By the way.... Overwhelming evidence from drawings & paintings by indigenous people of themselves from everwhere in the world over the past 4000 years shows skin tone/etc unchanged in the overwhelming majority now compared to then. But, I can understand why you'd prefer to only use 300-400 year old European source material to support your views. Someone here certainly likes to revise history (hint, look in the mirror).
 

DeletedUser36624

Shah Jahan had a historical questline in FoE. You can see how he is depicted on the official wiki. I daresay they took the skin tones from paintings by Mughal artists done contemporaneously, and not those done by European artists centuries later. No actual portraits of Mumtaz Mahal actually exist, or even accounts of what she looked like. Royal women were secluded, and paintings of them were just not done.
 

DeletedUser33179

I just looked through the game's 300+ portraits lineup in the fan wiki. There certainly does appear to be a dearth of dark skin toned people until most recently (those from the past 12-18 months). Hopefully these more current attempts at a consistently more diverse representation of people continues.

Personally, I would like some more fun, playful avatars. I got zombies, werewolf & the undead, but wasn't playing when snowman appeared. Where's a snow woman? How about a bunch of cool looking robots to choose from. Animals, where's the animals.
 

DeletedUser33179

Okay, I'm all about diversity, but I draw the line at furries.

come on now. Be a sport. Would looking at a cute little baby bunny rabbit avatar be so horrible? You could privately imagine that fierce crocodile avatar gobbling up the bunny if it'd help you cope :)
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
Several paragraphs of utter nonsense.

Humans are inevitably becoming Whiter based on your piss-poor interpretation of genetics & false assumptions that humankind must be wanting progressively widening inter-racial procreation over the centuries?? Therefore, there can't ever be "white washing" behavior if we're all actually getting whiter???

Absolute drivel.
Sorry Clara, but on this you are 100% wrong in your interpretation of what I said. My point is, with no actual evidence to the contrary, any assumption of white washing is someone's assumption. That's my point, it is an assumption. I also did not misunderstand genetics to imply that people are getting lighter as a result. Quite the opposite.

My statement clearly implies that it is quite likely that in the last 400 years, the skin tone of the average Indian has darkened, possibly quite significantly. I am also well aware that 400 years ago, Indian skin tones across the continent would have varied much more widely then they do today.

Those in the North Eastern regions would have had lighter skin due to mixing with people from Pakistan, the people in the North East a different tone entirely from mixing with the people of Nepal and China. In the Southeast, they would have been darker from mixing with Indian/Pacific Islanders. The East and Southeast influenced by heavy mixing with various Middle Eastern and East African people groups.

I also further realize that the industrial revolution which led to massive urbanization in India, pulled in all these various people groups from around the country and have had major effects on the current expression of skin colors across the country. My point is, we don't have a CLUE what any of these folks who were supposedly 'white washed' really looked like. Everyone wants to throw around a dumb term when no one can prove it even happened.

Since you seem to be way off your game today, let me break it down to you sweetums... In this specific example where the OP accused the Inno artists of 'white washing' we have ZERO, that's right ZERO evidence 'white washing' took place. They were tasked to produce 4 avatars based on the historical figures who built the types of buildings being represented. They do a quick google search for reference materials and they find everything we did, showing most everyone with lighter skin. Using the reference material as inspiration, they create their art, under a very tight deadline.

Now, y'all want to come along 250 years later, to call images created 150 years after the actual people lived 'white washed'. Fine. Prove it. Because I can't. I can find no hard evidence that the skin tones of the actual people were NOT as light as they are represented. Any accusations of 'white washing' are from the last 50 years based on no real evidence, just an assumption (there's that word again), that they had to be as dark back then as they are today, so therefore all the images that seem to almost universally show something different have all been 'white washed' because whatever made up 'absolute drivel.'

Which leads me to ask again, why do you keep wanting to make this about race, there is no race, only the human race.
Let me be the one to break it to you, sweetie.... If your closed-minded & slyly simplistic assumptions about genetics & math & human behavior were actually the primary factors in your pathetic scenario of how humans will look as the centuries pass, then all of us - including your descendants - would eventually appear some range of majority asian/dark-skinned african. There currently is & has always existed literally billions more of them compared to any other race. The mathematical majority bits of DNA will prevail?! Not that it matters much, right.
I can't follow any of this and have no idea what you're trying to say. So let me break it down further since it's your slow day.

With all of us coming from just 8 people, we all started out with the same skin color. As population grew and roamed, various people groups became largely isolated by geography. Over time, different levels of melanin in the skin proved to be either an advantage or disadvantage depending on climate, largely relation to sunlight.

Those who were born with darker skin in Northern latitudes ended up being at a disadvantage, as they began to suffer maladies associated with vitamin D deficiencies, while those with lighter skin had an advantage being able to absorb more sunlight into their skin to produce more vitamin D. As time went on, it was the genes for lighter skin that were passed on to subsequent generations.

In Equatorial latitudes the opposite was true, those born with lighter skin in Equatorial latitudes ended up being at a disadvantage, as they roasted in the sun, while those with darker skin had an advantage being able to block more sunlight and keep from burning. As time went on, it was the genes for darker skin that were passed on to subsequent generations.

And guess what? Now that we are no longer as isolated by geography and people are roaming, mixing, and mingling more than ever before, we're all gonna end up looking pretty much alike again. Sooner or later. Which is why all y'all who keep talking about race and trying to make it about race are F'ing NUTS! There is no race!!!

In fact, any geneticist will tell you that the best way to strengthen the human genome short of DNA editing in a lab is for humans to mix and mingle even more. [Edited to remove @Roxana 1184 the Wise's picked nit.]

Here's another breakdown since you can't find your meds.

In the example of Thandie, Halle and Barack, I could just as easily have worded it to represent them as having been 'black washed' by their DNA, when compared to their white parent's ancestry and it would be just as accurate. BUT ... y'all haven't made black washing a thing yet. Which is EXACTLY MY POINT. WTF???
By the way.... Overwhelming evidence from drawings & paintings by indigenous people of themselves from everywhere in the world over the past 4000 years shows skin tone/etc unchanged in the overwhelming majority now compared to then. But, I can understand why you'd prefer to only use 300-400 year old European source material to support your views. Someone here certainly likes to revise history (hint, look in the mirror).
I'm using the 300-400 year time frame because THAT'S THE TIME FRAME WERE TALKING ABOUT!!! The Taj Mahal didn't exist 4,000 years ago. Seriously WTF???

You want to use the 4,000 year time frame to dismiss all of the genetic changes in the last 400 years, when most of the genetic changes actually occurred. I'm not revising history, I'm accurately representing it unlike you. Until you can provide contemporary evidence to sustain your assertion that Shah Jahan (reign 1628-1658) and his consort Mumatz Mahal had the same skin tone as current Indians, it's all made up. I cannot find any.

But no, skip another dose and give me another rant. Tell me how I'm whatever. Then go away until you find your meds.
 
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DeletedUser36624

With all of us coming from just 8 people
!!!:eek:!!!

In fact, any geneticist will tell you that the best way to strengthen the human genome short of DNA editing in a lab is for humans to mix and mingle even more. Why? Because when we isolate, Royals get things like hemophilia, Sub-Saharan Africans develop Sickle Cell Anemia, and Jewish folks develop Tay Sachs.
Why did you have to pick examples that have nothing to do with isolation/in-breeding? You could have picked the Hapsburg chin or the family that walks on all fours. Sickle Cell Anemia and Tay Sachs are examples of overdominance, and no amount of hybridizing will cover for X-linked hemophilia in the male children of female carriers.
 

DeletedUser36624

The Tay Sachs and Sickle Cell Anemia genes are not recessive, they are overdominant. Being heterozygous produces superior fitness (in the environment where these alleles proliferated) to either homozygous state. This is why the alleles became widespread, not because of inbreeding in a small population. The sickle cell gene is prevalent over most of the very large continent of Africa, and into a substantial part of Asia. This is not a small population "sticking to their own".

The sons of Princess Alice and Princess Beatrice would have had a 50/50 chance of hemophilia regardless of who their fathers were. Had there not been a spontaneous mutation, well, then, we should be praising the royals for keeping such diseases out by only marrying their own, right?
 
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