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North Korea. Should we worry about them?

DeletedUser3

Umm, Sharpshooter. Food and medical necessities are not sanctioned and are, in fact, provided in great quantities. It is, however, the leadership of N.Korea that hoards those gifts and leaves their populace to suffer in squalor & starvation. Perhaps a little more homework is needed?
 

DeletedUser

Umm, Sharpshooter. Food and medical necessities are not sanctioned and are, in fact, provided in great quantities. It is, however, the leadership of N.Korea that hoards those gifts and leaves their populace to suffer in squalor & starvation. Perhaps a little more homework is needed?

The tongue-in-cheek definition of insanity, is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. The international community has been sending those basic necessities knowing that they'll be hoarded, time and time again.

There's no argument that N.Korean officials are primarily be held accountable for the squalor and suffering, but throwing vast sums of aid resources knowing full well that most or none will ever see the regular population of N.Korea, without finding an alternate means in helping or resolving the situation, is arguably being an accomplice to their plight.

The fact that the Int'l community doesn't apply the same sabre rattling and crushing sanctions against China, who is protecting the N.Koreans means that the rest of the world isn't serious about helping the N.Korean populace. Everyone knows the score...give aid, so that you can say you did, and don't upset the apple-cart in that part of the world because you don't want to ruin the financial relationship your country has with a economic superpower.

That makes our countries, the so called civilized and morally superior ones of 'the West' complicit as functionally or indirectly aiding and abetting the status quo in that region.

As much as we feel justified in holding the N.Korean politicians accountable, it's just as important to hold the failure of our own politicians' 'diplomatic patience' strategy/debacle, to account as well.

I am curious however, of what you meant by food and medicine not being sanctioned. Can you elaborate on that a little more please? Not sanctioned by whom? Or in what context?
 
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DeletedUser

Here's some information, subject to Fair Use Notice For Educational Purposes, on how the international community has had its own hands tied when it comes to dealing with the human suffering in N.Korea.


International Paralysis: In addition to the aforementioned widespread unawareness about the human rights violations in North Korea, international paralysis also prevents the world community from taking immediate action and preventative measures against the North Korean human rights crisis. Such international paralysis results from the following:

North Korea’s Specific Context: Many struggling nations that face food deficits accept foreign aid with open arms, and distribute such aid to their hungry people. North Korea, however, rejects most foreign assistance and distributes the limited aid that it accepts to its military and elite class. Additionally, North Korea, unlike other nations in which crimes against humanity occur, is highly isolated state. North Korea is neither accessible by bordering nations or by United Nations peacekeepers, nor does North Korea provide its population with means of communication outside of its borders.

North Korean residents – the majority of which are malnourished and have no access to electricity –, are prevented and intimidated from communicating with the outside world. Furthermore, while human rights atrocities occur in times of both political stability and instability, human rights violations that occur during times of political conflict are arguably more open to external intervention and thus, more manageable to confront.

For example, in the midst of civil conflict or the absence of a “state” or political leadership, it is arguably more likely that the United Nations and the international community will intervene because the absence of leadership both allows and necessitates international support. Conversely, when an established government – no matter how inadequate or inhumane –, perpetrates human rights violations, the international community is more hesitant to counter and challenge the acts of a state’s established leadership because of international premises of state sovereignty – the right of states to govern themselves.

Although North Korea has been categorized by the Fund for Peace as a “failed state,” the longstanding dynasty of both Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il represent an established governmental system. However, in light of heightened globalization, the concept of a “failed state,” and the doctrine of the “responsibility to protect,” past principles of state sovereignty have begun to evolve, placing responsibility and ownership on the world community to intervene in times of crisis.

Politics Surrounding the International Issue of North Korea: Politics frequently hinder the international community’s ability to take proactive steps toward remedying the human rights situation in North Korea. Deep tensions from the Korean War, North Korea’s possession of nuclear weapons, uncertainty as to the success of non-violent advocacy, and concern regarding the repercussions of taking unilateral action against North Korea deter effective international action.

Politics within the United Nations’ Human Rights Council: The Human Rights Council of the United Nations (UN) – formerly known as the Commission on Human Rights – is the United Nations’ human rights body. The Human Rights Council consists of member states responsible for identifying and addressing human rights atrocities across the globe. Through its Special Rapporteurs, the Human Rights Council is invaluable in investigating and monitoring human rights violations.

However, the Human Rights Council faces significant challenges in compelling action because member states have been historically hesitant to confront the human rights records of other member states, particularly when they fear reciprocal investigation into their own borders. In 2006, under the leadership of then- United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan, the United Nations General Assembly voted to reform the UN’s human rights body to address the politically charged dynamics and discord embedded within the United Nations’ former Commission on Human Rights.

Reforms included the implementation of a Universal Periodic Review of member states that is not initiated by other member states, changes in the new Council’s member state selection process, more frequent Council meetings, and a Working Group to respond to complaints filed to the Council by victims of human rights violations. Despite the acknowledgment of the politicized nature of the Council, and subsequent reforms, the Council still continues to operate with great sensitivity to political relationships between and across countries.

For example, China, Russia, Cuba, and Saudi Arabia are members of the Human Rights Council, despite their grave human rights records, and only time will reveal whether or not the Council will challenge the human rights records of its member states. However, as the reforms have been implemented relatively recently, the Council may continue to address politicization and work towards more effective human rights advocacy moving forward.


The Nature of International Law: Although the United Nations (UN) is a community of nation-states that respect the value of a world order, the UN’s authority over violations of international law is often contingent upon the acquiescence of, and recognition by, states that become party to the UN’s treaties or conventions. The authority of international law is thus based upon the resolve of nation-states in ensuring compliance across the world community, as well as the openness of violating states in fulfilling their international obligations.

In fact, legal scholars debate whether international laws have any “teeth” – or inherent power –, questioning whether the UN would be able to hold nation-states accountable for their actions without their acquiescence and recognition. Some members of the international community believe that without a “UN Military” the organization will never have an independent ability to enforce international law. However, the UN has increased its autonomous authority over human rights crises and other violations of international law by imposing economic sanctions and establishing judicial institutions, such as the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice. However, prosecutions through the

International Criminal Court must be suggested or referred by the United Nations Security Council or by victim states, and the International Court of Justice operates with the acquiescence of states that have recognized the jurisdiction of the court. North Korea has not signed the Rome Statute, the international treaty of the International Criminal Court, nor is it likely that North Korea will recognize the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice. However, the International Criminal Court may still investigate crimes against humanity perpetrated in North Korea, if such investigations are referred by the United Nations Security Council, and approved by the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court.

Therefore, without significant international resolve, the international system by its nature will not be able to confront North Korea’s human rights crisis. For this reason, the United Nations must work to garner support from its member states to confront and mitigate the North Korean human rights crisis.

http://www.northkoreanow.org/faq/#3


I believe my earlier position continues to hold merit.
 

DeletedUser3

The issue remains the same. North Korea doesn't let anyone in, thus we cannot help to alleviate a problem that is exacerbated by the very government that bars the door, hoards the food, and berates its benefactors.
 

DeletedUser

The issue remains the same. North Korea doesn't let anyone in, thus we cannot help to alleviate a problem that is exacerbated by the very government that bars the door, hoards the food, and berates its benefactors.

In principle and in practical terms I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. Digging deeper than the salient point you're making about the state level acts of self-isolation, dictatorial belligerency and abuse of it's own populace, my argument or point to put it more mildly since i'm not suggesting you're in error in the above post, is that there are forces outside the nation of N.Korea that are strategically, politically and cynically perpetuating a status quo, wherein the victims are the majority of N.Korean people, and that status quo is being accepted, further perpetuated, and in practical terms being inherently assisted by the policies of 'diplomatic patience'. It's a failure of a strategy by the international community, particularly the U.N. which is doing the very minimum of actually coming to the aid of the N.Korean people with purely symbolic and ineffective sanctions and 'aid', if you can actually call it that. This strategy has played out over 2 previous regimes and is still currently being used under modern day international 'political strategery' even now under the 3rd reincarnation of Li'l Kims mob-family.

The N.Koreans don't let anyone in, because they have the support of the Chinese, who are under no pressure from the international community to allow any sort of intervention, and the int'l community won't do anything about it, because our economies run on cheaply made crap made in China and resold to our own populace. It's an economic hostage situation, where our gov'ts are complicit.

See: Definition of insanity :)
 

DeletedUser3422

North Korea has no unemployment, homeless, poverty, or racism, and they love their president. They keep their border closed to keep out inferior goods and westerners trying to escape the evils of capitalism. I am shocked so many would be opposed to such a utopia.
 

DeletedUser

North Korea has no unemployment, homeless, poverty, or racism, and they love their president. They keep their border closed to keep out inferior goods and westerners trying to escape the evils of capitalism. I am shocked so many would be opposed to such a utopia.

Spock-sarcasm.jpg
 

DeletedUser

Why worry about N. Korea? After all, those in control here are too busy dismantling our military to worry about them and any threat they pose to us. By the time they get finished, we wouldn't be able to take on the French, and they run from everyone.
 

DeletedUser

Why worry about N. Korea? After all, those in control here are too busy dismantling our military to worry about them and any threat they pose to us. By the time they get finished, we wouldn't be able to take on the French, and they run from everyone.

Dismantle the military?

The U.S. military annually spends more than the next 13 nations combined.

And i'm not sure why you took a shot at the French, they're actually one of the world's most advanced militaries and spend only less than the U.S., China, Russia, and the U.K. on their military, and are consistently ranked in the top 10 military's in the world.
 

DeletedUser

US has announced it is putting an interceptor missile base in Guam, (part of Obama's pivot to Asia) where they already have a base of approx 200,000 troops. It is thought to be as a direct result of N. Korea's threats since their being incensed by the US and South Korean War Games that have been held off the peninsula to demonstrate a show of force to N.Korea. N. Korea have now closed the Industrial Park which was previously open to South Koreans, sealing off any access.
 

DeletedUser

Yes from an unstable 29 yr old leader who didn't come up through the ranks and was very indulged by his father by all accounts. Totally unpredictable. It's quite funny that China is having to almost act as intermediary seemingly asking everyone to calm down.
 

DeletedUser

Old Chinese Proverb says, "Beware Li'l Kim, he be crayzay".

He's a spoiled brat with an atomic aresenal. I swear this was a classic Twilight Zone episode.
 

DeletedUser3

Well as I understand the issue here, he's only in power because the Generals allow him to be in power. He's not "in control," instead it's a power play between the various Generals. The posturing is being posed by the Generals, each showing their bravado and their willingness to play their cards to gain the upper hand over the other Generals. Kim is, quite bluntly, merely a figurehead. He doesn't have the power that his father had, who had less power than his grandfather. This is the 3rd generation of family leadership, having been diluted into an object rather than an actual person of power. The Generals are playing a game of cards, stacking one over the other in an effort to see who causes it to topple. Doing so leaves behind the victor. And in the middle of this game is Kim. The cards will invariably fall on him.
 

DeletedUser3422

The Worker’s Party controls most aspects of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea’s economy, they have no unemployment, homeless and profits do not take priority over people. Maybe Kim wants to be the next Chaves and help the world see the benefits of quality leadership. If the people did not like their county’s path they would revolt... if they just had guns.
I agree NK is likely going through a power struggle. I would like to know if any of the power players are on the side of liberty. As more countries in the region gain economic freedom whispers of it might penetrate NK’s borders.
 

DeletedUser

Well as I understand the issue here, he's only in power because the Generals allow him to be in power. He's not "in control," instead it's a power play between the various Generals. The posturing is being posed by the Generals, each showing their bravado and their willingness to play their cards to gain the upper hand over the other Generals. Kim is, quite bluntly, merely a figurehead. He doesn't have the power that his father had, who had less power than his grandfather. This is the 3rd generation of family leadership, having been diluted into an object rather than an actual person of power. The Generals are playing a game of cards, stacking one over the other in an effort to see who causes it to topple. Doing so leaves behind the victor. And in the middle of this game is Kim. The cards will invariably fall on him.

North Korean Game of Thrones? ;)
 

DeletedUser34

I think they are something to be concerned about. Not because of the threat they have but because of the dynamics of the dynasty. The problem with Kim is that he has to prove himself. He doesn't have the legacy his father or grandfather has. He is relatively a newbie. Think about it, the generals are still looking at him watching him.

Personally however, I think the UN is a much larger threat. But that is a topic for another thread.
 

DeletedUser

I think they are something to be concerned about. Not because of the threat they have but because of the dynamics of the dynasty. The problem with Kim is that he has to prove himself. He doesn't have the legacy his father or grandfather has. He is relatively a newbie. Think about it, the generals are still looking at him watching him.

Personally however, I think the UN is a much larger threat. But that is a topic for another thread.


What the...???
 

DeletedUser34

You seriously going to spam the D&D simply because you don't agree with my reasoning? Or rather be a big boy and say....Dom, I just don't have a good grasp of what you are saying so can you clarify. I am perfectly capable of having "rug time" with you and explaining it.

OR

Are you saying you understood and just flat don't agree, in which case, why spam the thread at all with something as redunkulous as
What the...???
 
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