DeletedUser13838
Whoops. Still, 4 troops/day isn't great for 70 tiles.
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DeletedUser9433
The happiness it offers allows you to eliminate one or two cultural buildings. It is a truly Great Building, no matter how you try to spin it.
DeletedUser26154
Jenny is right. It gives at least four unattached units PER DAY. Meaning those bad boys add up. And the happiness makes it a keeper.
The Alcatraz is great for GvG because of those free, daily, unattached units.
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Algona
Well-Known Member
Compared to what? Traz lets you accumulate troops.
Build 4 barracks and don't fight for a week. You have 16 troops. build a Traz and 1 barracks Wait a week. At least 32 troops.
When I built my Traz I erased all barracks but the one Rogue Hideout I had. A month later I had well over 100 Rogues. Are lots of Rogues good?
I can set up one barracks for a random age and in a while have the troops to fight GvG in that Era. Can you do that without a Traz?
I suppose if I fight and lose lots of troops every day that the 3-4 barracks I could build instead would be more useful, but if I'm losing that many troops a day then I'm doing something seriously wrong.
DeletedUser26154
Three snaps in a Z formation. Mmmm Hmmm!
DeletedUser13838
My reply was with respect to the troops being free. Let's look at this from another perspective. I have a level 10 traz. The 1st 60 fp provides 4 troops/day. The next 4k provides another 4 troops/day. It's certainly true that the traz provides a lot of happiness - in fact it's almost as much as a polished 4x4 concert hall.
I also use 15 STCs to boost my attack. My other barracks include 5 hideouts, 2 retreats and 1 rail gunnery so on average I get 3 useful troops per day out of the 8. I don't need any barracks for AF troops - GE allows you to accumulate a huge number of troops of your era. You only need barracks for past ages.
I'm not arguing that the traz isn't powerful but the idea that the troops are free in any sense is ridiculous.
I also use 15 STCs to boost my attack. My other barracks include 5 hideouts, 2 retreats and 1 rail gunnery so on average I get 3 useful troops per day out of the 8. I don't need any barracks for AF troops - GE allows you to accumulate a huge number of troops of your era. You only need barracks for past ages.
I'm not arguing that the traz isn't powerful but the idea that the troops are free in any sense is ridiculous.
Algona
Well-Known Member
Well, no. You stated two factors that you imply make the Traz units not free; space and FP cost. I get 24 FP every day for free. I have paid medals, coins, or diamonds for expansions. Those resources (in my case) were free as well; byproducts of game activities I would already be doing.
DeletedUser26154
Watch the movie "The Book of Eli" and you'll see your Alcatraz in a different way.
DeletedUser13838
I don't understand your argument. You get 24 fp for free for playing the game. Those fp can be used anywhere. Donating them to your traz means not using them somewhere else. Using your space for a traz means not using it for something else. The term for this is opportunity cost.
DeletedUser26154
The benefits of the free, unattached units The Alcatraz produces on a daily basis add up. It doesn't really become apparent until you burn through a lot of troops a day. Alcatraz takes up a lot of space, but once you get it making 8 or more units a day, with the happiness on top of that, and then you see why The Alcatraz is perhaps the best Great Building in the game.
DeletedUser8152
If I understand correctly, Konrad is not arguing against the excellent value of the Alcatraz. He is simply pointing out that, for all it's benefits, it is not "free."
Algona
Well-Known Member
I'll give you an example of what I mean by free. In 2001 I was paying rent. At that time for a little more* I could make mortgage payments. So I bought. Either renting or buying, what I am spending the money on is the roof over my head. However, in a few years, as a byproduct of spending the money putting a roof over my head, I'll own a house. The house will be free.
Since I already had the free FPs, coins, medals, and diamonds and I was going to spend them on something, the Traz is free in respects to FPs and space.
Dunno why you wanna drag Opportunity Cost into this, but if'n you do, I reckon ya gotta invite it’s partner, Return on Investment.
RoI of Traz: The most efficient accumulation of unattached troops.** This is also the OC of not building Traz. I’m ignoring happiness, I don’t see it as a major factor in this argument.
I’ll let you figure out the other two (RoI of building something else, OC of building Traz), then we can compare.
*Three years later the rent was higher than my mortgage payment.
**I think GE is the only way to accumulate unattached troops on a scale comparable to Traz. I think you can get 24 mundane troops of your Era per week if you get all the way through. Maybe a few rogues and champs as well. Traz is much more efficient in that the troops are free, it produce more troops, and you control the types of troops collected.
p.s. If you want, I’ll post the OC/RoI analysis of renting versus buying the house. Boring no end. A.
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DeletedUser26154
Donates Forge Points then moves in, "Oh yeah!"
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Mustapha00
Well-Known Member
You're probably right....which does detract at least somewhat from my arguments, though it shouldn't.
Given conditions in the game as they are right now, it should be possible for a player to have not only "a" chance but, in fact, a "fairly good" chance to defend against an attack by another player if only one or two Ages separate them, but that chance rapidly approaches zero once you get beyond that two-Age span.
If you want to use history as a guide, the advantage was nearly always with the defender, not the attacker. Static defenses were, until the latter part of last century, truly a defensive force multiplier. The defending troops could huddle behind their fortifications and either employ direct or indirect fire at their enemies, while the attackers had to cross ground that was (assuming the defenders were even modestly competent) devoid of cover.
Now, this isn't an exact comparison here with conditions in FoE because Inno assumes that the defending force has left its fortifications and chosen to meet the attackers on "neutral" ground (ground that the defenders have no prepared to bolster defense). I get that my analogy is, therefore, flawed to an extent.
Back to the game: I guess I'd have about as much sympathy for those who cannot defend against an enemy 1 or 2 Ages separated from them as many aggressive players have for those who complain when the range is more like 5 Ages.
BruteForceAttack
Well-Known Member
I think if the AI of city defense gets a upgrade to AI of continental map, the attackers will have to do some work when the ages are comparable. Right now it is easy to beat someone even if they have good defense.
cbalto1927
Active Member
Since the induction of Guild Expeditions, Plundering has overall decreased. There's no need to decrease even farther by changing the AI Defense. I personally enjoy the AI Defense as it is now. Besides putting up a good defense, upgrading your Defensive Great buildings would be better in the long run. I have alittle over 300 percent Defense by combination of watch-fires, defensive buildings, and 2 fully leveled defensive great buildings. With these 3 combinations nearly nobody would dares to attack your city.
DeletedUser26154
Green Acres is the place to be.
Farm living is the life for me.
Land spreading out so far and wide.
Keep Manhattan, just give me that countryside.
New York is where I'd rather stay.
I get allergic smelling hay.
I just adore a penthouse view.
Darling, I love you but give me Park Avenue.
...The Chores.
...The Stores.
...Fresh Air.
...Time Square.
You are my wife.
Good bye, city life.
Green Acres we are there.
*Lyrics by Victor "Vic" Mizzy
Ringthane
Member
It's certainly ruining the game for me. I wouldn't mind so much if there were some skill or strategy involved but when you have a couple of a-holes in your neighborhood with 200-300% attack bonuses there is absolutely nothing you can do. Even with a city full of watchfires won't help you. And this is coming from someone who is in the the Oceanic Future with access to all the highest units. Hell, my defense bonus is 374% and I can't even prevent them. How is your new/average user supposed to defend against them?
DeletedUser
Well, with the way they do neighborhoods now, the new user won't be in their hood to be plundered. Plundering has decreased since both the GE started, and since they changed the neighborhood scheme. And, believe me, getting plundered by 1 or 2 a-holes is nothing. I was once stuck in a hood with 50 of the top 100 players on S world. I was ranked in the low 200s, but had no chance with Modern/PostModern units against Arctic Future troops with immense attack boosts. I shut that world down for about 2 weeks and relied solely on my GB production.
Lucifer1904
Well-Known Member
*COUGH COUGH COUGH* CRYBABY