• We are looking for you!
    Always wanted to join our Supporting Team? We are looking for enthusiastic moderators!
    Take a look at our recruitement page for more information and how you can apply:
    Apply

Telepathy

DeletedUser3

Hi Daniel,

It is common, but unfortunate that quantum mechanics and the characteristics of such are sometimes posed as an answer to crackpot notions, such as telepathy. ;)

First we need to understand that we, as creatures of evolution, are devised to view, react to, and interact with that which is understood. We understand "classical" physics on an intuitive level and, as such, learning classical physics is quite intuitive, almost easy to learn. In studying classical physics, you feel as if you're merely obtaining reaffirmation, because essentially you are.

Indeed, all life demonstrates this intuitive comprehension of physics. For example, birds have such tiny brains and yet they intuitively understand how to compensate, even take advantage of, changes in air pressures. A predator knows when to quit chasing its prey, when the physics of a chase are no longer working in its favor. We, as humans, take this intuitive comprehension of physics for granted and indeed consider ourselves the true intelligent creatures because we can "write out" classical physics. But in truth we know just as much, and in some cases even less, about classical physics than other creatures on this earth. The intuitive comprehension of classical physics is a necessity for survival, and thus an understanding imposed through evolution of the respective species.

What truly makes an argument for our intelligence is the ability to consider non-classical, or modern physics. Modern physics, that which is studied today by physicists, is non-intuitive. We, as humans, were not required to understand modern physics. It was not a necessity and in fact has no discernible impact on our existence. Quantum entanglement, the Pauli exclusion principle, the uncertainty principle and the pwning of such due to quantum memory, all of that is pretty much, "what the hell?!?" All of it is so non-intuitive as to make it completely irrelevant to survival, and thus we never learned it at a core level, never obtained comprehension of such via evolution.

That's what makes us intelligent. The ability to consider things outside of our innate programming. But not merely consider, we go so far as to mathematically represent, to take an abstraction and show through mathematical formulae that it is indeed possible (just to clear this up, quantum entanglement has since been observed, so it is past mere possibility).

So when we look at the notion of telepathy, we come to something that is not intuitive. Einstein referred to such things, including quantum mechanics, as spooky. But this must not be misunderstood. Telepathy is not intuitive, but it is also non-existent in the classical sense, and thus it is not something we necessarily do. It is not genetically encoded into us, because for all practical purposes it doesn't exist. So then, does it exist in quantum mechanics?

The mistake here is attempting to pose non-classical, non-intuitive infinitesimal subatomic principles and applying them in a classical, intuitive role. It doesn't work, but not for obvious reasons. As previously stated, quantum mechanics is not intuitive, not in the least, and attempting to understand quantum mechanics absolutely requires that you abandon your presumptions posed by your intuitive comprehension of classical physics, which is almost like letting go of your survival instincts (and this is why not everyone can become a physicist, or live long enough to become one, hehe).

Yep, physicists are an endangered species. *smirk*

Right, anyway, in many respects you could say if telepathy truly existed, it would be intuitive for us, because it would be something we interact with, relate to. It would have a direct, or indirect, impact on our survival. However, such is not the case and even the notion of such seems counter-intuitive. Now, does that mean it is not possible? No, of course not. When you pick up a phone and call your friend 3,000 miles away, guess what... you're communicating to them telepathically.

Yep, you see, telepathy really doesn't have a distinct label. There is no precise measure of how it is performed. Calling someone on the phone is no less telepathy than the abstract, non-existent means often accompanied to the notion of telepathy. We're just using a device to perform the effect.

And this is where much of these things simply fail. Magic is around us, all the time, but it is not in the form we "seek," it is in the form that exists. Through the use of manipulation of electricity and materials, we're able to perform "magic" with devices (staves, wands, crystal balls being the imaginary forms; phones, rifles, and televisions being the existing forms). Through body gestures that causes light to reflect off us in various patterns we are able to communicate to another our interest in them. I.e., I smile at someone and that gesture causes them to smile back at me, yet I made no physical contact. I manipulated light, exploited their ocular receptors, allowed their brain to detect pattern, which in turn results in a reciprocation --- they smile back. Same goes with our use of the voice to pose sound waves that may be received at great distances by auditory receptors within other creatures (damn crickets driving me nuts!). And then there's writing, which is one of the most impressive displays of magic, where we use symbols --- a series of such --- that can be imprinted on parchment and stored for centuries (or digital signals that are magically transported at the speed of light, which are then decoded and displayed as light emitting shapes). These symbols, these "magical runes" if you will, are taught to all of us and we use our ocular receptors to receive light (or the omission of such in the case of black print), which our brains in turn perform pattern recognition. This recognition of patterns then results in memory comparatives, some of which may have emotional attachments.

And so now you drop a tear at the beauty of these words --- or not.

Unfortunately, despite what I presented as our known magics, there are still people looking for something beyond what is right in front of them. The magic that exists is not enough for those who cannot wield that magic effectively or are too lazy to work to become magicians of classical physics.
 

DeletedUser34

I have a question...after reading that LONG dialog...OMG
Say there are other dimensions...like the spirit world, is it not possible for it to communicate? What is that? Also, have you ever just had a feeling, like OMG, I need to call and check on so and so? Or I know something is wrong with so and so etc, only to find out they were thinking about you exactly at the same time? And what about twins? They have a wierd ability to communicate without speaking.....how do you explain that?

I have no horse in this race, these are simply musings.
 

DeletedUser3

You want explanations to things that you provide no evidence in support?
 

DeletedUser34

You want explanations to things that you provide no evidence in support?
diminsions, do you have to look further than mediums and ghosts?....as to the twins, personal experience.....so yeah I guess I am. I am asking how you would explain these two things. People swear by the fact that crazies are more crazy on the full moon, but science swears that is kook.....And you ask anyone in the healthcare or law enforcement (public safety) and they will say there is something to it.
 

DeletedUser3

Well, considering I used to work in healthcare, I am more than willing to state it is kook. I'm not going to take the position of attempting to explain things when no evidence is provided to support the existence of such things. Indeed, nobody has posed any evidence in this thread, it's all "wishful thinking."

Seriously, how do you explain leprechauns?
 

DeletedUser34

short little greedy men, who reside at the bottom of rainbows (and or closets like on the Jimmy Dean commercial) and in some cases have been documented to be quite violent and diabolical.
PROOF
 

DeletedUser3

leprechaunfp.jpg
 

DeletedUser3

Alright, fess up time. In my above longwinded write-up, I intentionally posed a logical fallacy, a non-sequitor. Actually, I did it twice.

Daniel, you presented quantum entanglement as a possible explanation for telepathy. While I demonstrated why that is not viable, I expanded upon that without a base and argued telepathy is not viable when in actuality telepathy via quantum entanglement is the only non-viable part of that argument.

The next part is that of posing our means to manipulate electricity and materials to generate effects that emulate many of the things we commonly find in fantasy books, and then arguing that one is the real magic while the other is fantasy. The truth is, fantasy is only that which has not yet been determined to be factual and may very well never be determined as fact.

However, in all this, such things as telepathy are almost universally dismissed by the scientific community for very much the same reason that beliefs are dismissed. They are not testable and the goalposts for testability will forever be moved to prevent proof or dismissal, precisely because "telepathy" will forever be the field of crackpots. Even if at some point we determine a means to emulate the effects "without" gadgets, there will be those shiesters posing a so-called "real" way of performing telepathy.
 

DeletedUser

well when you pray to god since he has no physical ears in front of you you would be telepathically communicating with god when you pray because when you pray you expect god to recieve your thoughts telepathically... so if you believe that god can hear your prayers you also have to believe in telepathy
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser3

well when you pray to god since he has no physical ears in front of you you would be telepathically communicating with god when you pray because when you pray you expect god to recieve your thoughts telepathically... so if you believe that god can hear your prayers you also have to believe in telepathy
Not a valid argument. The discussion is about telepathy as it pertains to human-to-human contact, not as it pertains to omnipotent deities with the capacity to shoot lightning bolts at forum posters. I.e., in the context of respective religions, deities are ascribed a multitude of super-human powers and abilities, including the ability to create leprechauns.



(( There is no part in this discussion that warrants a religious intrusion. Let's keep it that way. ))
 

DeletedUser

The discussion is about telepathy as it pertains to human-to-human contact,

This discourse made fascinating reading. Hellstromm elaborated his reasoning against telepathy using classsical and modern physics and stating there was no evidence to support any possibility of telepathy in the scientific world and I accept that. However, I was thinking that there is anecdotal evidence in abundance of twins' identical experience/feelings when separated and taken together with other evidence, albeit anecdotal, of unexplained phenomena with people knowing when someone has died or knowing who is on the other end of the phone before you pick up etc. As we don't yet know everything about genetic imprinting and the genome and are still trying to unravel DNA whether there is something in that field which might expain unnaturally close or identical empathic thoughts feelings/experiences. Scientists say we shouldn't ignore this evidence but are unable to explain it scientifically as yet. This isn't exactly telepathy, i.e. transferring ones thoughts to another more turning it on its head to a connection that can't be fully explained. Just a thought.
 

DeletedUser

institute of Noetic Science specializes in that exact field.founded by an apallo14 astranaut their is a whole field of science specifically specializing in that field of study. which is one of they only few scientific fields that supports the possibility of telepathy
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

Hmm, sorry, perhaps I phrased that incorrectly. Which qualified scientists that have even a shred of credibility?
 

DeletedUser

Diggo11, are you saying that because there may, and I say may, as I don't know, be no published papers directly referring to this by "qualified scientists" that there is no basis to the possibility of a genetic link creating empathic experience. Do you think that we know everything there is to know at the moment? I think not. Scientists are resistant to the idea because this kind of evidence cannot be measured in a way they are comfortable with yet, nevertheless a lot of research has been undertaken to try and explain why twins separated by continents can live almost identical lives and have identical experience and know when something has happened to the other twin. Simon Baron-Cohen's research into empathy shows it to be a powerful ability. His expertise is neuro-science. Interestingly, he was awarded many accolades into his work and his book on Autism and how to teach the autistic to mind read as they genetically lack empathy.
 

DeletedUser

Scientists are resistant to the idea because this kind of evidence cannot be measured in a way they are comfortable with yet

Lol are you saying that scientists are uncomfortable with evidence that isn't actual evidence? What a surprise. You either have solid evidence that can be backed up by repeated experiments, or you don't. That's the basis for science, and if you don't have it, then it's not science.

Simon Baron-Cohen's research into empathy shows it to be a powerful ability. His expertise is neuro-science. Interestingly, he was awarded many accolades into his work and his book on Autism and how to teach the autistic to mind read as they genetically lack empathy.

Sounds fascinating. Please post a link that lists these accolades that he has won, along with any that might allow one to read about his studies.
 

DeletedUser

No, I'm not saying that, you are getting into the difference between pure and applied science which is somewhat off topic. You can look him up on internet if you are interested.
 

DeletedUser

Alright, fess up time. In my above longwinded write-up, I intentionally posed a logical fallacy, a non-sequitor. Actually, I did it twice.

Daniel, you presented quantum entanglement as a possible explanation for telepathy. While I demonstrated why that is not viable, I expanded upon that without a base and argued telepathy is not viable when in actuality telepathy via quantum entanglement is the only non-viable part of that argument.

The next part is that of posing our means to manipulate electricity and materials to generate effects that emulate many of the things we commonly find in fantasy books, and then arguing that one is the real magic while the other is fantasy. The truth is, fantasy is only that which has not yet been determined to be factual and may very well never be determined as fact.

However, in all this, such things as telepathy are almost universally dismissed by the scientific community for very much the same reason that beliefs are dismissed. They are not testable and the goalposts for testability will forever be moved to prevent proof or dismissal, precisely because "telepathy" will forever be the field of crackpots. Even if at some point we determine a means to emulate the effects "without" gadgets, there will be those shiesters posing a so-called "real" way of performing telepathy.

Isn't writing a manipulation of electrons, protons and neutrons? That would make writing a "delayed" form of telepathy (by quantum entanglement example). By that, we could use a series of equals and therefores to make a more direct and shorter connection as our science and math evolves.
Altered states of the brain is already an approach to that shortening of the route.
There is a possibility it can be, but at the same time, it must be rooted in some sort of mechanism in our plane of existence.
The actual topic should have been,
Telepathy, How can we achieve it soon?
 

DeletedUser

some reputable people that supports the possibility of telepathy is John B, Alexander ph.D counselour at the society of scientific exploration.
David Lorimer program director of the scientific and Medical network .Eugene Taylor Ph.D executive faculty at Saybrook Graduate School,Lecturer on psychiatry at Hardvard Medical school and alot more people experienced in the field of study who agree that telepathy is possible
 

DeletedUser3

Scientists are resistant to the idea because this kind of evidence cannot be measured in a way they are comfortable with yet, nevertheless a lot of research has been undertaken to try and explain why twins separated by continents can live almost identical lives and have identical experience and know when something has happened to the other twin.
This is the problem with that sort of "example," in that it's similar to throwing a mass of pennies in the air. One lands on its side and suddenly we claim telekinesis.

No verifiable correlation. I pick up the phone and say, "Hi Diggo" doesn't make me psychic, it just means I guessed right that time. Randomness is not a means of determination, it's merely randomness.

Simon Baron-Cohen's research into empathy shows it to be a powerful ability.
Simon Baron-Cohen's research is being misrepresented by you, or by whomever you are reading. He does not go into empathy in the sense inferred by psychics, but by the ability to read body language and other commonly understood communication factors that we regularly use but otherwise take for granted. This ties directly to his research in autism and does not have anything to do with "psychic ability" or "telepathy."

Careful where you obtain your facts/statements. Some peeps have their own agendas and distort researcher findings to suit their needs, but in the process pose fabrications to sufficiently confuse.

No, I'm not saying that, you are getting into the difference between pure and applied science which is somewhat off topic.
Pure and applied science? Umm, he wasn't getting into the difference of it... applied sciences are dependent up on laws that follow the rules of evidence presented by Daniel. Theoretical sciences (pure if you want to run with that label) utilizes the rules of evidence as presented by Daniel, which results in postulations or theories. All are dependent on the same formulaic pathway of examining evidence. There is no evidence when it pertains to telepathy, thus no formulaic pathway.

And let's make it clear, a person saying, "i can read your mind, you're holding an Ace of Spades," is no more a telepath than he is a trickster, which has been presented as the overriding circumstance in reports of telepathy. No evidence, no facts, just claims and tricks. Indeed, tricksters are dependent upon believers. Belief is dependent upon a circumstance devoid of evidence.

Isn't writing a manipulation of electrons, protons and neutrons? That would make writing a "delayed" form of telepathy (by quantum entanglement example).
Umm, no correlation. The physical manipulation of electrons, protons, neutrons "en-masse" has a direct causal connection associated with the basic principles of classical physics. Nothing there has any relation to quantum entanglement and, quite frankly, you seem to be trying to b.s. your way into this discussion with such an assertion.

By that, we could use a series of equals and therefores to make a more direct and shorter connection as our science and math evolves. Altered states of the brain is already an approach to that shortening of the route. There is a possibility it can be, but at the same time, it must be rooted in some sort of mechanism in our plane of existence.
Let's see: math evolution, altered states of the brain, planes of existence.

Right, put your science fiction books away homey. Anyhow, back to Earth... your paragraph is only vaguely associated with the false premise you presented earlier. I guess you're having fun, so I'll leave you to it. ;)

some reputable people that supports the possibility of telepathy is John B, Alexander ph.D counselour at the society of scientific exploration.
David Lorimer program director of the scientific and Medical network .Eugene Taylor Ph.D executive faculty at Saybrook Graduate School,Lecturer on psychiatry at Hardvard Medical school and alot more people experienced in the field of study who agree that telepathy is possible
Let's see:

John B. Alexander, "Of course they do not constitute irrefutable proof. However, to state there is no evidence suggestive of intelligent extraterrestrial life simply belies the facts. Decades in duration and global in nature, there are too many hard sensor data-points and millions of eyewitnesses to ignore. We certainly can debate the significance of specific data and question whether or not it establishes a causal relationship between the observations and extraterrestrial life. However, it is only through ignorance or pomposity that one can say no evidence exists."

His comment above demonstrates his way of thinking, which is incorrect. He makes the invalid correlation of "unidentified flying object" = "intelligent extraterrestrial life." There is no evidence to substantiate such a correlation. Indeed, the very fact these objects were "unidentified" at the time of witness stands as firm disputation to his his ex-post correlation.

I would also like to point out that a PhD is a doctorate in philosophy. i.e., he has a doctorates degree in positing notions irregardless of facts and evidence. As it is stated in the scientific community, "a philosopher can convince his way out of a paper bag but, in the end, he'll still be in that paper bag."

Finally, I saw no evidence to support your assertion Alexander believes telepathy exists, nor is it even remotely relevant, since some people believe in leprechauns. Belief is not a validation, it's merely an opinion. Just like asses, everyone has an opinion.

David Lorimer
Bad example. Lorimer created his Scientific & Medical Network. He taught philosophy and modern languages. Where's the "science" or "medical" expertise in that?

Eugene Taylor
Holds a masters in psychology, a doctorates in the philosophy of psychology. Umm, once again, where's the science expertise in that? I would like to point out I could not find any statement in which he stated "telepathy" exists. Perhaps you're pulling names out of a hat again?

In closing, you presented names, no statements made by any of them, none of them indicating that "telepathy is possible," and clearly there is no supporting evidence.

So what's the point of bringing up non-scientists' opinions on an issue that is clearly without validation and/or merit? Just because you want to believe there are leprechauns doesn't make it true. The mere fact there are people who have spent decades researching this, finding nothing, no evidence, nothing substantive, instead encountering a multitude of con-artists and wannabes demonstrates this to be as factually implausible as leprechauns.

There are plenty of people who believe in things and they're entitled to their beliefs. But when you travel the route of attempting to scientifically validate a belief, you run up against a brick wall of common sense, of logic, of rational thought, and of no supporting evidence.

That's my two-cents, please continue. ;)
 
Top