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Discussion in 'Debate Hall' started by Lucifer1904, Mar 24, 2019.

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  1. Lucifer1904

    Lucifer1904 Well-Known Member

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    Thread Closed
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  2. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

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    May 29, 2018
    Animals yes, people no. They are not remotely the same in any way shape or form. To even make the comparison between the two is a bit offensive.

    Do you eat beef, chicken, fish? Wear leather shoes, have a leather jacket, sit on a leather sofa or seats in your car? Euthanasia of animals. Unless you're somehow pro torture before eating them. Me, I prefer my meat animals have a quick, clean, painless kill.

    Let's also hope you differentiate between the consumption of human flesh and use of human leather. Given your user name, I question. I hear among some of your followers, it's a thing.

    For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither [any thing] hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
     
  3. CornwallisMorgan

    CornwallisMorgan New Member

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    Sep 8, 2017
    This came up in our ethics class when I was in nursing school. The way you've explained it, is precisely how it should be conducted. This ensures that the patient has provided the necessary consent and that the healthcare team is preserving beneficence. The only time prior consent is not necessary is if, and only if, the patient is brain-dead and base-brain reflexes are nonexistent.
     
  4. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

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    May 29, 2018
    I'm unclear about these 'ethics'. Is there a differentiation between the removal of mechanical life support from a body incapable of supporting life on it's own and administering a lethal injection to a body that is capable of supporting life on it's own? Does your ethics differentiate between lethal injection and one quick clean shot to the temple? Knife across the jugular? Beheading with a sword or guillotine? If so, why? Isn't a quick and painless kill a quick and painless kill?

    Does your 'ethics' differentiate between two private parties engaging in consensual murder, or does it give a special dispensation to someone wearing scrubs? If so, why? Are you saying only people who've paid for a medical degree have earned the right to legally take lives?

    What happened to Primum non nocere, "First, to do no harm?" How does your 'ethics' square killing with doing no harm?

    Let the mental gymnastics begin.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  5. CornwallisMorgan

    CornwallisMorgan New Member

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    Whether or not I will entertain an answer to your questions hinges upon your intent. Are you looking for an answer, or are you looking to feed your ego?
     
  6. B1ackWo1f

    B1ackWo1f Active Member

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    Jan 9, 2017
    Even if there is no DNR in place, be it an animal or human, do you really want to see your loved one suffer like that? Even with painkillers available? I'm not saying I would be able to do it myself but it is a question that pops up in those situations. I had to watch my 92 year old grandmother suffer for a week and a half before she died. Yes she was on morphine. And I'm sure you'll now ask, well then how do you know she was suffering. Her body language and the sounds she made. And then the statement, her morphine was not being administered correctly. It was.
    So again. Do you really not care about watching them suffer?
    If you're not physically there to see it it may take away some of the feelings but the question still stands.
     
  7. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

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    I'd honestly like to know. What are the parameters by which it is 'ethical' to kill another person? More importantly, as a medical professional, do you agree with these 'ethics' and are you fully prepared to act in accordance with them? Would you personally administer the shots? Hold down the patient while the shots are administered? Restrain the patient so the shots can be administered? Stand over them to make sure they take all their pills? How far are you personally willing to go?

    Did you agree with this 'ethical' position before the argument was presented to you in nursing school, or did they win you over? Did they really win you over, or have you just learned to parrot the 'party line'? Did the fact that you were paying to be taught these 'ethics' by an 'expert' sway your opinion? Do you believe there is there such a thing as moral absolutes, or is it all situational and societal ethics?

    What are the ethics being taught to today's generation of medical professionals? Did they teach you the origin of the concept of euthanasia? Did they teach you it's borne from the concept of eugenics and that euthanasia was the 'compassionate' method of removing unwanted genetic material from the gene pool? Did they teach you that for eugenicists, euthanasia is merely the 'late-term' cousin to abortion? Abortion being the cleansing of unwanted genetic material from the human race prior to birth, euthanasia the cleansing of unwanted genetic material from the human race after birth. Who decides what genetic material is wanted and more importantly which genetic material is not?

    If you would support aborting a baby at the mother's request that had downs syndrome because she doesn't want to deal with the burden of a special needs child, would you also support the euthanasia of a low functioning autistic 5 year old at the request of the mother because she doesn't want to deal with the burden of a special needs child any longer? What about special needs adults that become wards of the State or receive public assistance? Should they be euthanized to save the taxpayers money?

    If you would support euthanasia at the request of a patient diagnosed with terminal cancer who doesn't wan't to go through the pain anymore, would you support euthanasia at the request of a patient diagnosed with chronic depression who doesn't want to go through the pain anymore?

    So please, if you support euthanasia, especially since you work in a profession has been given a legal pass to participate in euthanasia, you ought to be able to justify your position beyond, "They taught me in nursing school it was okay." What are the parameters under which you believe euthanasia is ethical?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  8. Lucifer1904

    Lucifer1904 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 20, 2016
    In regards to the discussion, the factor of animals was not meaning in the production of products used by humans. It was in the aspect of Humans choosing to euthanize animals such as Dogs and Cats.
     
  9. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

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    May 29, 2018
    Having confronted this issue with both of my parents, we chose to alleviate their suffering the best we could short of actively killing them. In the case of my father with Alzheimer's, it about killed me to watch him suffer and a piece of me died the day I walked in to visit and he no longer knew who I was. My mother ended up in a nursing home after a failed suicide. After a couple of years, she ultimately chose to starve herself to death by refusing to eat.

    Both having living wills and DNR's in place, my father ultimately succumbed to pneumonia after we made the decision to withhold treatment, my mother after we made the decision not to force feed her. In both cases they were kept hydrated and comfortable, until nature ran it's course. I wish they could have avoided going through all of that, I wish I could have avoided going through all of that. I also realize pain and suffering are part of the human condition. Just because we now have the means, doesn't mean we have the right despite what another might wish.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  10. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    First of all, I am a Christian, so my faith informs my opinions. (Rather than vice-versa as it is with some Christians on both the right and left.) Euthanasia is wrong in the active sense. Meaning that to actively take a life is wrong, while passively allowing a life to end on its own is not wrong. For those who are terminal and suffering, I believe that palliative care, such as hospice, is the appropriate avenue to take. I also believe that withholding life-extending treatments, either at the person's request such as a DNR or unhooking breathing/feeding machines from brain dead patients at the family's request, is an acceptable moral choice. Doctor assisted suicide, on the other hand, is actively taking a life and completely wrong.

    The previous statements are for the human side of this. For animals that are pets, I believe it is acceptable at some point to have them put to sleep to alleviate their suffering. As has been noted, animals and humans cannot be equated in this issue. (And I am saying this as one who likes many animals better than I like some humans.)
     
    RazorbackPirate likes this.
  11. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

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    May 29, 2018
    Despite the emotional attachment one might have to a pet, a pet is still an animal and our attachment to it is subjective. In India cows are revered, for me they're dinner. For me a dog or a cat is a pet, in many Asian countries they're stir-fry. Many raise rabbits, chickens, or pigs as pets, many raise them for food.

    Are you saying the value of a life, human or animal depends on the subjective emotional attachment we place on it? If so, isn't that also justification to subjugate one race to slavery or eliminate another through genocide? By what standard are you using to ascribe value to a life? It's usefulness to you? To society? Do you believe there is an inherent, inviolate difference between the life of a person, and the life of an animal? If so, why? If not, why not?
     
  12. Lucifer1904

    Lucifer1904 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 20, 2016
    I am saying regarding your emotional attachment, the same can go for humans as it could be the decision for your parents or other family that you have an emotional attachment to. Therefore it is not justification to subjugate one race to slavery or eliminate another through genocide. Simply put, emotional attachment makes a large difference in your decision on euthanasia. If you were emotionally attached to a single cow out of a hundred would you still be willing to kill that single cow?
     
  13. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2018
    By that logic then euthanasia is assisted suicide.
     
  14. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

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    For me, emotional attachment makes no difference in my decision regarding euthanasia. It is the difference between man and beast. I take it you don't suffer that distinction?
     
  15. Lucifer1904

    Lucifer1904 Well-Known Member

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    There are scenarios where it can be such in a technicalities sense. 'Doctor Assisted Suicide'
     
  16. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2018
    The biggest problem I have with justifying euthanasia of a person is simply it's open to abuse. Once you open that option there's way too much leeway for people to use it for all the wrong reasons and way too soon from when it "should" be used. There may be people that are suffering terribly with no way of possibly recovering, but people throughout history have murdered people in order to get their wealth. So how do you differentiate between a relative after their money/belongings, a relative or staff member that just really hates the person and someone that genuinely just wants the persons pain to end because there's no way to save them? How does one know that whoever does it isn't just doing it to free up housing? This is even assuming people are correct as to when someone is beyond recovery
     
  17. Lucifer1904

    Lucifer1904 Well-Known Member

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    Naturally a human being has a harder time making that decision with someone or something it has an emotional attachment to.
     
  18. Emberguard

    Emberguard Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2018
    I don't think it is a technicality. Since when does consent make something not murder? You've called euthanasia murder if the person doesn't consent. So by that definition if you have consent it's either assisted suicide or murder or both
     
  19. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

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    May 29, 2018
    Under what scenarios is euthanasia, not assisted suicide? Is there wiggle room in the definition I'm missing?

    euthanasia -
    synonyms: mercy killing, assisted suicide, physician-assisted suicide;
    merciful release, happy release; rare quietus
     
  20. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

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    May 29, 2018
    But you see no inherent value of a human life beyond that of an animal, correct? The value of the life and struggle with the decision to euthanize is entirely based on your personal subjective emotional attachment to the animal. Human, dog, cat, cow, pig, guinea pig, ortolan, peacock, whatever.
     

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