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Trading -- Equal Value vs 2:1 All the Way Up

  • Thread starter DeletedUser26579
  • Start date

DeletedUser26579

This is something that comes up in my guild a good bit, but I feel like I'm missing some context.

When trading across ages, what do people feel about the equal-value convention versus 2:1 per age all the way up?
 

DeletedUser8152

I say let the free market rule :)

But in guild, you're trying to help each other out. Let people trade up 1:1 if you can afford it; if not give them the best rate you can manage.
 

DeletedUser26965

Fair trade means only if you and the person you are trading with find the deal fair, that's it, end of story.

I don't know what you mean by "equal-value convention", if you mean trying to figure out if a trade is "equal"/fair then refer to my first sentence.

However if you must insist, the closest thing to equal/fair trade is in the early ages when buildings are the same size, different size buildings means attempting to put some sort of value on space but what is the value of a 1x1 tile? Then CA and beyond gets really messy. Then considering gb's/special buildings make goods makes it even messier. How do account for value in those regarding goods in a trade?
 

DeletedUser26579

Sorry, I meant "equal cost of production" in terms of coins and supplies.
 

DeletedUser26579

There are conventions -- they are baked into online "fair trade" calculators and described on the wiki.

Regardless of whether or not you agree that they are "fair", those conventions exist.
 

DeletedUser8152

There are conventions -- they are baked into online "fair trade" calculators and described on the wiki.

Regardless of whether or not you agree that they are "fair", those conventions exist.
This is true. My opinion is that they are kind of BS, for the reasons sloppyjoe mentioned. But if your guild agrees that what you should, use, that's fine. Just arbitrary in my way of thinking.
 

DeletedUser26965

Yes, the goods trade calculators out on the nets have unfortunately been so titled "Fair Trade Calculators (FTC)" And yes those calculators only account for coins/supplies cost for making those goods in their algorithm, aside from the fact that can switch some to 2:1 or "Guild Trade". And yes, quite a many FOE player has fallen prey to the idea that such calculations are "fair".

Nonetheless what I said above is quite accurate I assure you.
 

DeletedUser25273

A fundamental principle of economics is that if you force an exchange rate that doesn't match what people really feel, you will create a scarcity of the undervalued item. If, for example a guild forced a 2:1 ratio of LMA:Colonial, while most people felt the 1.5:1 ratio was closer to fair, would tend to find few people offering LMA goods for Colonial, and people offering Colonial Goods for LMA would likely find their trades taking longer than normal to get accepted. Some trade would still occur, as different people, in different circumstances do have differing values, and there will be some people with LMA goods with a strong need for the Colonial goods (or a sense of egalitarianism willing to be helpful) to make the trades at those ratio.

The Equal Value ratios may be reasonable in many conditions, but are in no way perfect. For example, trading up from Industrial to Progressive, the 'Fair Trade' ratios seem to underestimate the value of the Progressive goods, in part due to the need for 2 lane roads makes them especially big in comparison.

At lower ages, the fair trade ratios seem real close to what would generally be considered a good ratio, and establish a reasonable baseline for trade. I think the real idea that started behind the concept of Fair Trade, was to exclude those doing predatory trades,like 1:1 going up an age of 2:1 going up a couple, not with the idea that the ratio was 'fair', but hoping someone doesn't notice that it is a really bad deal. Others seem to object to the concept that someone might be able to profit from the needs of others, doing something like offering at a slight markup goods that seem to be scarce.
 

DeletedUser26579

I would love to put a bid in for goods or ask a price for goods and let there be a stock market that way, but that's not the trading system we have.
This is true. My opinion is that they are kind of BS, for the reasons sloppyjoe mentioned. But if your guild agrees that what you should, use, that's fine. Just arbitrary in my way of thinking.

1) The problem is that there is an insistence that we follow fair trade conventions in the guild. There is disagreement (amongst the guild leaders) on what those conventions are. Some say 2:1 and some say equal cost of production in coins/supplies (aka the calculator). There are also allusions to the perils of 2:1 conventions, but I'm not sure what those are.

2) The point was to stop predatory practices of one guild member upon another, as nomad richie talks about. Similarly, I was explicitly told "If you want to make a profit, you're in the wrong guild." (Oddly, I was using the so-called "fair trade" convention when I was told this.)

3) My own guild aside, I would love to have a bid/ask system in place (in exchange for neutral currency tokens), but instead we have a bunch of trades, which makes a "market price" hard to determine. That is, I don't think we have the right tools for a good free-market system.

4) I lack the experience to know what reasonable expectations of an exchange rate would be.

5) These things can be discussed without saying that there is a "right" rate of exchange.

For example, what trades get filled at later ages? What is trading like? Or do people just produce their own raw goods and refine them twice? What happens?

Edit: pronouns
 

DeletedUser8152

5) These things can be discussed without saying that there is a "right" rate of exchange.
They certainly can be, but somehow rarely are :)

My own opinions can't help but be based on my own experience, which has been in sensible guilds where we do try to help each other out. If someone posts a trade that doesn't look more-or-less reasonable, I'd assume it's for the hood or something and ignore it. If it's something they need and can't otherwise afford, they will post about it and then I'd take it if I could.
 

DeletedUser26579

They certainly can be, but somehow rarely are :)

My own opinions can't help but be based on my own experience, which has been in sensible guilds where we do try to help each other out. If someone posts a trade that doesn't look more-or-less reasonable, I'd assume it's for the hood or something and ignore it. If it's something they need and can't otherwise afford, they will post about it and then I'd take it if I could.

But which is closer to a reasonable starting point? 2:1 or equal-cost-in-coins/supplies?

I am trying to get a sense of what is realistic.
 

DeletedUser8152

Personally I think around 1.5:1 is reasonable at low ages. At high ages maybe 1.2:1. At low ages of course 2:1 is the supply ratio.

For unrefined:refined in your age (ie CA:ME) I usually figure 2:1 is OK since that's how the GBs go.

Normally we see that the goods in the 2nd to last age in the game (currently FE) are scarce. I've certainly seen them trade better than 1:1 for AF. And the unrefined goods from the current max age have a glut. So CE goods are currently worth less than you'd think.
 

DeletedUser26579

Personally I think around 1.5:1 is reasonable at low ages. At high ages maybe 1.2:1. At low ages of course 2:1 is the supply ratio.

For unrefined:refined in your age (ie CA:ME) I usually figure 2:1 is OK since that's how the GBs go.

Normally we see that the goods in the 2nd to last age in the game (currently FE) are scarce. I've certainly seen them trade better than 1:1 for AF. And the unrefined goods from the current max age have a glut. So CE goods are currently worth less than you'd think.

Thank you. That (and the comment nomad richie made about Progressive goods) will give me something to think about.

I am curious, though, why is there a glut of CE goods? I would think that those would be scarce, since lots of people now need to refine them, so there is an increased demand for them, compared to before AF was released. Or did people overcompensate by building too many CE goods buildings?

I can see there being more AF people than FE people in the game right now, so that makes some sense to me.

edit: grammar, clarity
 

DeletedUser8152

I am curious, though, why is there a glut of CE goods? I would think that those would be scarce, since lots of people now need to refine them, so there is an increased demand for them, compared to before AF was released. Or did people overcompensate by building too many CE goods buildings?
I think that people's GBs make more unrefined goods than they need.
 

DeletedUser26965

I am curious, though, why is there a glut of CE goods?
Because a lot of people are at the end tech, AF, and all their goods gb's are pumping out CE goods like crazy. When they all move to OF it will shift to TE goods and so on.
 

DeletedUser26579

Right. I've only got one goods GB, but I have 7 regular goods producing buildings (used to be 9, but I recently killed off an obsolete pair to reclaim some space back). The first one was nice, but it makes every subsequent goods building seem less attractive.
 

DeletedUser25273

I won't claim a lot of experience at the higher ages, but my first gut feeling is that the cost based values are likely closer, (but may still be off by a lot) because it is at least based on something related to the cost to produce the goods, while the 2:1 is just chosen as it worked at lower ages.
 

wolfhoundtoo

Well-Known Member
The need for artic goods lies mostly with the desire to put up Great Buildings that utilized Artic age goods. Since many of the Artic players have Arcs (and Obs and Atoms) they produce plenty of artic goods for the guild treasury which are used to pay for GE (there is no other use for those goods). so generally speaking with no need to donate them to the treasury I'd suspect many people don't make Artic goods (especially when at the end of tech and you don't need any for the tech tree either).
 
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