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Twinkies:

DeletedUser34

Are you purposely being ....
It isn't hard to understand even if you are purposely being obtuse!
And now you see why I went back to conking!

The government created the environment that set the unions and the companies at odds. However, SPECIFICALLY the closing of Hostess in this time in this place...falls squarely on the bakers.

I know Australia speaks the queens english diggo. My Texas dialect shouldn't be that much of a stretch.

oh yeah and the echo needs to learn to come back with more than one liners....he is epicly failing his mentor!
 
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DeletedUser3

Indeed, this is the continued lie being posed and news agencies are culpable for falling in line with the lies posed by venture capitalists. Rather than performing investigative reporting, news agencies take the handouts presented by companies, free news... news they don't have to pay anyone to obtain, and they print it, post it, pose it as fact.

It's problematic. When I was studying journalism, it was one of the most disheartening issues hitting the U.S., where free news was being presented on an increasing basis by public relations firms and corporate puppets, resulting in a flood of false information in favor of investigative journalism. With the decreasing news print, the increasing web blogging, and the number crunching of corporations looking at the bottom line in their "business" of news, facts and evidence has been increasingly taking a backseat to free and fallacious.

So what do you do about it? You address the venture capitalists? You address the news agencies for taking free news over costly news? You address the unions who are merely groups of employees trying to curb cost of living expenses?

Usually, we do nothing at all... which falls right inline with what borderless corporations and venture capitalists want. Just stand and watch, they're busy filling their pockets on this nation's complacency.
 

DeletedUser

You know if every state and the fed would just legalize and tax weed. Then perhaps we could have saved Hostess?
 

DeletedUser2381

Things like NAFTA and the Asian trade agreements are what hurt the U.S. And, to be honest, it encourages those exploitative nations to continue to exploit their citizenry. It doesn't increase wage earnings in those nations, it merely fills the pockets of borderless corporations and the coffers of those exploitative governments.

In short, we're doing it wrong. Oh and you can thank Reagan & Bush Sr.

Blaming Reagan and Bush Sr for NAFTA, I believe you should give thanks to Clinton even though it had begun as a Republican initiative. And I agree we are doing it wrong.
 
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DeletedUser3

Blaming Reagan and Bush Sr for NAFTA, I believe you should give thanks to Clinton even though it had begun as a Republican initiative. And I agree we are doing it wrong.
Interesting comment eazymango but, unfortunately, it is incorrect.

"The impetus for NAFTA actually began with President Ronald Reagan, who campaigned on a North American common market. In 1984, Congress passed the Trade and Tariff Act. This is important because it gave the President "fast-track" authority to negotiate free trade agreements, while only allowing Congress the ability to approve or disapprove, not change negotiating points. Canadian Prime Minister Mulroney agreed with Reagan to begin negotiations for the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement, which was signed in 1988, went into effect in 1989 and is now suspended due to NAFTA. (Source: NaFina, NAFTA Timeline)" ~ http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_History.htm

According to the U.S. Constitution (you know, that thing Bush Jr publicly dismissed as inconvenient), the President can (and in the case of NAFTA, did) negotiate treaties but it is ultimately ratified by Congress. It was Bush Sr. that negotiated NAFTA. It was Bush Sr. that signed NAFTA, it was Congress that ratified NAFTA, and ultimately it was Clinton that signed it into law (with sufficient votes in Congress to override him should he have vetoed it). It is, however true that Clinton would not have vetoed it, as by stepping aside and allowing NAFTA, it was one of Clinton's gifts to the GOP in an attempt to garner their support for some of his Democrat-initiated proposals (including universal healthcare, wherein of course the GOP demonstrated their thanks by shooting him in the foot and impeaching him for infidelity). And, as previously indicated, had he vetoed it, his veto would more than likely have been overturned and Clinton's negotiating abilities, so early in his term, would have been thoroughly torpedoed (yay for politics).

And then there's CAFTA, which was initiated by Bush Jr.'s staff, ratified by the GOP-held Congress and signed into law by Bush Jr. in 2005. What is missing from this picture is that China and other countries are using CAFTA as a tariff/tax free gatway to the United States, since most of the 7 countries of CAFTA have no restrictions on Asian trade. This issue was well known by the Bush administration, which pushed hard for CAFTA despite the glaringly obvious conflux of deals being made by Chinese and other Asian importers with these respective nations prior to the signing of CAFTA and the flood of trade goods (that exceeds their production capabilities) from these nations after CAFTA's signing (a similar, but less pronounced event occurred upon the signing of NAFTA).

And let's not forget GOP's support for WTO's advocacy of international free trade.

Sorry Eazymango, I'm glad you agree we're doing it wrong, but free-trade is a long established GOP agenda that is opposed by most Democrats in office and likewise opposed by other less-established parties. Tearing down Hostess, selling its parts and its product recipes is an anticipated result of selling out your country's goods for profit. Venture capitalists, the same people who have been disassembling Hostess (and all firmly on the Republican ticket I venture to say), advocate free trade because it provides them more opportunities for profit.

Let's face it, selling out your country is good business. Bye Twinkie, hello Tzinkwei.
 

DeletedUser2381

Hellstromm,
I agree with you, even though it was a Republican initiative I was making sure people didn't forget to give thanks to the man who signed it into law.
Neither side has done anything over the last 20 years other than fill their pockets pandering to their constituency and bankrupting our country.
 

DeletedUser

The only immediate effet that NAFTA had was that it allowed US farms to flood Mexico's economy with US farm products. This took away the lively hood of many Mexicans, but US corporations didn't run south to take advantage of cheap labor the way that most people thought they would. Instead immigrants came north in droves. Federal minimum wage didn't rise for a decade, but welfare benefits surpassed minimum wage. I think that looking the other way on immigration and then compensating out of work US citizens with welfare that exceeds minimum wage is by design, and it is a clever way to quell the pinch of emerging markets. We don't have the largest economy in the world by dumb luck. One day inflation will kick in and the US economy is primed to capitalize on it. If we could just get China to quit inflating their currency and backing ours to keep the dollar strong. I'm not sure what this has to do with twinkies, because I don't think anyone is importing them. Maybe it's that you need to pay the bakers considerably more than welfare. Unions and democracy are nothing more than mob rule. If you don't like your union, change it. Be advised that emerging markets aren't going away anytime soon, and it's not the fault of any president or congress.
 

DeletedUser

income-union-membership.png
 

DeletedUser34

So basically all the bakers union succeeded in doing is killing all those jobs...

Smooth!!!!
 

DeletedUser

So basically all the bakers union succeeded in doing is killing all those jobs...

Smooth!!!!

That is an interesting take on an article which demonstrates completely the opposite and underpins all the arguments against your point of view. Still, I may not agree with your interpretation/opinion but I will always defend your right to state it.
 

DeletedUser

Full article from which previous graph was sourced: http://www.businessinsider.com/we-may-need-labor-unions-after-all-2012-12

"Great companies in a healthy and balanced economy don't view employees as "inputs." They don't view them as "costs." They don't try to pay them "as little as they have to to keep them from quitting." They view their employees as the extremely valuable assets they are (or should be). Most importantly, they share their wealth with them.

One of the big problems in the U.S. economy is that America's biggest companies are no longer sharing their wealth with rank and file employees...

What's wrong is that an obsession with a narrow view of "shareholder value" has led companies to put "maximizing current earnings growth" ahead of another critical priority in a healthy economy: Investing in human and physical capital and future growth.

If American companies were willing to trade off some of their current earnings growth to make investments in wage increases and hiring, American workers would have more money to spend. And as American workers spent more money, the economy would begin to grow more quickly again. And the growing economy would help the companies begin to grow more quickly again. And so on.

But, instead, U.S. companies have become so obsessed with generating near-term profits that they're paying their employees less, cutting capital investments, and under-investing in future growth...

That's not good for the economy... because rich people can't buy all the products we need to sell to have a healthy economy (they can't eat that much food or drive that many cars, for example).

And it's also just not right."
 

DeletedUser34

seems evry one missd my point with the link
my point was, the company ceos aren' going to be hurt at all. htye came out with their feet up. so who paid the price for the bakers union?
 

DeletedUser3

Actually Domi, the venture capitalists weren't even slowed down by the unions. They did exactly as they intended --- plundered the company until there was nothing left to plunder. It is quite obvious they had absolutely no intention of keeping the company viable. They just wanted to make as much profit as possible in as short a time as possible, and now they're selling the leftovers from their Ho Ho plundering.

The unions are merely a convenient scapegoat to cover their tracks, to throw up a smokescreen to their plundering ways, so they can head off to the next town --- err, company.

Now, if there were equal or greater benefits to polishing, I'm sure that would once again be popular. But, as soon as a company loses its core founder(s), capitalist outsiders venture to plunder because, let's face it, there's a far lower profit/time ratio to polishing and these capitalists are trying to retire to thier island in the Bahamas before they reach puberty. Polishing a company, maintaining and developing it for the long haul, provides steady dividends off the investment, but they're not looking for steady, they want their money to move! So, best way is to raise prices, reduce work force, lower wages, obtain substandard ingredients from cheaper sources (i.e., imported from Asia or Central America), and stop wasting money maintaining/fixing equipment, then just keep doing that until it can't be pushed further. Once they reached their maximum profit/time ratio, things inevitably start falling apart, literally. So, all that remains is to sell off the parts and move onto the next ad-venture.
 

DeletedUser3052

They've done killed the Twinkie

For many years, I only snacked on Twinkies (sometimes Ho-Hos, Chocodiles, Suzie-Q's, Cupcakes, and Snoballs). I hardly go with any other brand because of the taste. I was distraught when I hear that my national pastime will come to an end as a result of union stubborness and interference. I understand unions were created to 'supposedly' help the employee be better in their way of working life, however, they had hurt many workers. I am sure that Hostess was trying to find a way to keep those 18k+ workers employed and getting themselves out of any financial trouble that they may have. However, the union was stubborn in demanding they (the employees) get better wages and in the end, the employees lose. Unemployment line? That's another financial hardship to the country as a whole and the support is limited.

If I had owned a business, I would not even let unions set foot into it and push their demands: they can do that elsewhere. If I get employees, I will make sure they get treated right and paid good enough as we progress through. If we profit, everyone gets an incentive. If we don't, then we take a look, learn from it, and make better avenues to get us on a winning track. That's the way it should be. If a company is not profiting because of its worker base treating customers wrongly, should that company reward those workers (wage increases) just because a "union" said so? If that was my company, I would have given them the pink slip and hire those who can treat customers better.

For example, let's take Wal-Mart. If everyone that is employed there treated customers with courtesy, union or not, the customers will shop there more, and the company will get more revenue that might work on for wage increases for a job well done. I am not an employee of Wal-Mart, but I am a customer that only shops at a few of their locations (and will travel far as possible to get that type of service -- as I based a location on the courtesy of the employees that were given to a customer among other things) while disregarding the others (those that treat a customer poorly).
 

DeletedUser

It's hard to find accurate info on Hostess baker's pay scale. Whatever it is/was Hostess management proposed to cut it by 8% after giving themselves a 300% pay raise. The unions just reacted out of predictable principle. Hostess leadership was begging for the strike and the unions obliged them. It's not that Hostess products aren't profitable, it's the $100,000,000 anually of pensions that are eating into margins that motivated the bankruptcy. There were probably under the table payments to union leaders. I hope one day there will be laws passed to deal with obvious bankruptcy to sidestep payment of earned pensions.
 

DeletedUser34

well, here is my thought...
Nobody open your own business, because the masses think they get to run it despite the fact that it is your company. And if the bakers didn't like the company, they could have quit and gone elsewhere. Then the company would have had to either step up or fail. I know a few people who would have bowed and kissed the ground to be offered the job that the bakers union *issed away.
 

DeletedUser3052

well, here is my thought...
Nobody open your own business, because the masses think they get to run it despite the fact that it is your company. And if the bakers didn't like the company, they could have quit and gone elsewhere. Then the company would have had to either step up or fail. I know a few people who would have bowed and kissed the ground to be offered the job that the bakers union *issed away.
I would agree with you on that. I had always learned, if I don't like the field I am in or the working environments, I will seek employment elsewhere; not moan and groan about it. Perhaps another person would be thankful in getting that position while you land a better one. Also, let's not forget that whatever conduct you had done in your previous employment, your current (or soon to be next) employer will be making a phone call to verify you're telling the truth. Most companies that researched their applicants would deny them if they had knowledge that the very employee participated in an activity that was detrimental to the previous employer: this means striking and walking out.
 
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