Weak Great Buildings need to be upgraded

[Kranyar the Mysterious]

I always wanted a troop named "Cannon Fodder", not to be confused with all the cannon fodder already in my army management tab, but now I want Trolls. Thanks SL!

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

One possible new Troop across all Era could be called "Mercenary" created in a similar way as Champion. With a special Barracks that can be won in AD etc, and raised up each Era with One Up and Reno Kits.
Give it some other sort of property than Champion.. (personally I would see it start on the same side as the enemy troops. Kind of like a saboteur and limited to max of two allowed. I would also give it a specal quality that each time it wins a fight (not die) it gets its core percentage raised. But it also is always 'hit back' first by the troop it fights. (a two edged sword) So if it fought in a thousand fights, it would be near invincible. but the moment it is killed. even Diamond revival does not return the extra boost.Goes back to start. So a very strange and difficult to use Troop. really only suitable for manual battle.
In use in City Defense. if it dies, it also loses the added boost, but is restored to life as all City defense are.
I could see using it in easy battles to build it up the bonus. the saving those and adding more. A whole new kind of Troop with new ways to utilize.

 

[Lancer]

I ended up removing ToB and Inno Tower. For now, that's all I plan on deleting.

 

[..Boudica..]

Then lets also mention 2 tabs of cultural and decoration buildings that are never built.

Hence all the Build So-n-So Cultural Building or Gain 3500 Enthusiasm quests.

 

[..Boudica..]

I ended up removing ToB and Inno Tower. For now, that's all I plan on deleting.

You removed Babel and Inno Tower? What's your population handler? Have you got a Habitat?

Yikes.

 

[..Boudica..]

One possible new Troop across all Era could be called "Mercenary" created ... A whole new kind of Troop with new ways to utilize.

Mercs are EMA units...

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

You removed Babel and Inno Tower? What's your population handler? Have you got a Habitat?

Yikes.

I don't know what @Ebeondi Asi uses for population, but most of my cities where I don't have those two (or Habitat, God forbid) I get plenty of pop from event/special buildings. Not to mention the fact that without a ton of production or goods buildings or barracks, there isn't really a need for a lot of pop. And I have excess population in every city except my SAM city, which is pretty much a failed city that I can't seem to let go of. Probably because it's the one I've had the longest out of those I now have.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

Population is of zero consequence if you have enough happiness. with over 800,000 excess population I have Innovation Tower at level 80 for no reason other than FPs. But back in EMA Innovation Tower was great to be able to get rid of all housing.

 

[Emberguard]

Population is of zero consequence if you have enough happiness. with over 800,000 excess population I have Innovation Tower at level 80 for no reason other than FPs. But back in EMA Innovation Tower was great to be able to get rid of all housing.

Same. Inno Tower was amazing in Iron Age for that reason. There's definitely a point at the very beginning where a city would benefit from Inno purely for freeing up space, and then a point where it's outlived that particular purpose (*cough* event building powercreep *cough*) and is purely for Forge Points if you retain it.

You'd have to be going through the Research tree at a steady pace, or just not consistently completing and updating the age of your event buildings for Innovation Tower to be a major benefit for population later down the track. Nothing wrong with using it for population if that's what a player needs, it's just a lot more unlikely to be needed later in the game for population under the current game balance.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

But back in EMA Innovation Tower was great to be able to get rid of all housing.

Same. Inno Tower was amazing in Iron Age for that reason.

I respectfully disagree. Fine if you want the Inno for FP, but for early pop the ToB is a better fit. It not only takes care of pop needs, but eliminates (or at the very least greatly reduces) the need for goods buildings. Early ages don't need the production buildings and goods buildings like they did back in the early days. Some, yes, but not many. And without the need for many of those, the need for population is also much reduced. I rarely have residential buildings past Bronze Age anymore when I start a city. And that's a direct result of prioritizing the ToB early. (And I start new cities a lot.) Using the ToB instead of the Inno Tower takes up less space and doesn't necessitate trading for higher era goods. More room for event/special buildings (which more than make up for Inno's FPs) and those FPs you used to buy higher era goods can instead be put to more directly beneficial uses.

 

[Emberguard]

Fine if you want the Inno for FP, but for early pop the ToB is a better fit.

The reason I find Inno a better fit early on for population if you're able to set yourself up to obtain one, is because it's vastly cheaper than the Babel to set up for that purpose. You barely even need to touch it for it to serve its purpose allowing you to direct your Forge Points into other areas.

Level 1 Innovation Tower provides 3,600 population
Level 80 Tower of Babel 3,225 population

but eliminates (or at the very least greatly reduces) the need for goods buildings.

The goods output on a Level 10 Tower of Babel is 15 per day. A single goods building is 20 per day. If that eliminates your need for goods buildings then you barely had goods buildings in the first place.

and doesn't necessitate trading for higher era goods.

Ok that's certainly a point in your favour. Goods wise the Innovation Tower is a big step up in initial outlay.

1,750 goods / 2 = 875 lower era goods total needed to trade for Contemporary Era goods at a 2:1 ratio. VS 150 Bronze Age goods you can gather yourself for the Babel.

So then it comes down to how long would it take you to get goods and blue prints for the Innovation Tower?

and those FPs you used to buy higher era goods can instead be put to more directly beneficial uses.

I would shop around and see what's the cheapest you can get those goods before deciding whether it's too expensive or to go ahead with it. These days goods are way cheaper than they used to be. Also would need to consider how long you're going to keep the building or if you'll delete it too soon to be worth building.

 

[..Boudica..]

I don't know what @Ebeondi Asi uses for population, but most of my cities where I don't have those two (or Habitat, God forbid) I get plenty of pop from event/special buildings. Not to mention the fact that without a ton of production or goods buildings or barracks, there isn't really a need for a lot of pop. And I have excess population in every city except my SAM city, which is pretty much a failed city that I can't seem to let go of. Probably because it's the one I've had the longest out of those I now have.

Yeah, I suppose Event buildings and Specials can cover most pop issues. I've got zero housing. I have a Cider Mill for quests lol. No goods, no production buildings. Militia. I've still got Babel and she's it. I could build Inno or the Hab but why? I've got close to zero population needs, more folks than I'll ever need, my Happy numbers are off the chart and I need as much room as I can ferret out for topiary :[)

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

The reason I find Inno a better fit early on for population if you're able to set yourself up to obtain one, is because it's vastly cheaper than the Babel to set up for that purpose. You barely even need to touch it for it to serve its purpose allowing you to direct your Forge Points into other areas.

Level 1 Innovation Tower provides 3,600 population
Level 80 Tower of Babel 3,225 population

Just as a concrete example of the silliness of this point, in just one HMA city I have over 3800 pop. Only 1249 comes from my ToB, the rest from event/special buildings. How many? Two main ones and about half a dozen small ones. Of that 3800+ pop, over 3300 is excess. Why? Because the only buildings I have that use pop are 8 production buildings that I only have for events. Even if I did decide to build some more production/goods/military buildings, I could easily do so without ever touching the pop I get from the ToB. So to waste space on an Inno for pop is just silly.

The goods output on a Level 10 Tower of Babel is 15 per day. A single goods building is 20 per day. If that eliminates your need for goods buildings then you barely had goods buildings in the first place.

Actually, I (almost) never have goods buildings anymore. I only negotiate when a quest calls for it. And the early era goods needs for tech are pretty minimal. So the ToB is perfectly fine for Bronze Age, and by the time I get a city to Iron Age and a slightly higher need for goods, then I almost always have a few event/special buildings to take care of it. Truly, given the lack of negotiating and the minimal need for tech tree goods, the ToB would probably take care of my needs by itself well into EMA or maybe even HMA. Fighting is so much more efficient and profitable than negotiating, and there are several ways I haven't even mentioned to get goods without ever having a goods building. It just doesn't make sense to use goods buildings at all anymore, at least to me.

Ok that's certainly a point in your favour. Goods wise the Innovation Tower is a big step up in initial outlay.

1,750 goods / 2 = 875 lower era goods total needed to trade for Contemporary Era goods at a 2:1 ratio. VS 150 Bronze Age goods you can gather yourself for the Babel.

So then it comes down to how long would it take you to get goods and blue prints for the Innovation Tower?

And the BPs are another strike against the Inno that I didn't even think to mention. You have to work at it to get them in the early eras, even if you have a good guild helping you out.

I would shop around and see what's the cheapest you can get those goods before deciding whether it's too expensive or to go ahead with it. These days goods are way cheaper than they used to be. Also would need to consider how long you're going to keep the building or if you'll delete it too soon to be worth building.

Too expensive is just a side issue, really. In my estimation the Inno is never worth building for pop at all, regardless of cost. I do have it in one or two of my cities, but that is strictly for the FPs. And I can see building it for FPs in mid to late eras, but not in the early ones.

Another thing I haven't mentioned that is a strike against the Inno, and the main reason I have deleted it a time or two in others of my cities, is that you have to provide Happiness for all of it to keep your city Enthusiastic. Sure, a Traz and/or Hagia Sophia will help, but then you're taking up half an early era city just for two great buildings, one of which you don't really need at all. The cities that I currently have an Inno built in are higher era cities with massive Happiness from GBs and event/special buildings.

 

[Kranyar the Mysterious]

In my first city years ago I built both Inno and Babel. It was a camped IA city for a long time and they were removed shortly after the Oracle and LoA while in IA. Never missed them since, and never built them in any other city I've started either. Too many other great options for me to even consider them anymore. Haven't bothered with LoA in my latest Carthage city either.

 

[Kranyar the Mysterious]

And the BPs are another strike against the Inno that I didn't even think to mention. You have to work at it to get them in the early eras, even if you have a good guild helping you out.

This is quite true. I'm trying to remember the last time I saw an Inno Tower in a 1.9x thread. Been a long time. I imagine getting the prints could be a real pain, especially early on.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

Another Great Building that is claimed to be a mistake is Truce Tower (formerly Dynamic Tower) . I built Truce early on also and have been very happy wth the resuts. All my high Era Buildings I got the Goods from Truce activity and never had to buy any High Era Goods. (I did pay for Arc Goods very early on) Plus It has given me tens of thousands of high Era Goods. And all that just at level ten. Of late now I ahve all my oher Gbs up I have been leveling up Truce.
I personally believe the digs against Truce are 100% from players who are selling Goods and do not want others to stop buying them., and parrots. Who just repeat what the "gurus' say. LOL

 

[Emberguard]

I personally believe the digs against Truce are 100% from players who are selling Goods and do not want others to stop buying them., and parrots. Who just repeat what the "gurus' say. LOL

Really depends on what you’re trying to achieve and what kind of timeframe as to whether the Truce Tower is worth having.

Peoples main interest in the Truce Tower used to be for rapid growth development. That's no longer where I see the value for the Truce Tower. Now it strikes me more as a long term play, particularly if you want new Great Buildings

Truce Tower
Initial outlay: 2,781 Forge Points @ 1.9 to Level 10
Goods required to build: 1,875

Trading down a single good
SAV: 1 good starting
(1) SAAB: 2
(2) SAM: 4
(3) VF: 8
(4) OF: 16
(5) AF: 32
(6) F: 64
(7) Tomo: 128
(8) ConEra: 256
(9) PME: 512
(10) ME: 1,024
(11) ProE: 2,048
(12) IndA: 4,096
(13) ColA: 8,192
(14) LMA: 16,384
(15) HMA: 32,768
(16) EMA: 65,536
(17) IrA: 131,072
(18) BrA: 262,144

So how many goods do we actually need for Great Buildings?

Great Building Age: Base cost | Traded down from SAV
Space Age Venus: 4,500
Space Age Asteroid Belt: 3,750 | 1,875 (the same amount as the Truce Tower, lol)
Space Age Mars: 3,000 | 750
Virtual Future: 2,350 | 294
Oceanic Future: 2,150 | 135
Arctic Future: 2,000 | 63
The Future: 1,875 | 30
Tomorrow: 1,875 | 15
Contemporary Era: 1,750 | 7
PostModern Era: 1,750 | 4
Modern Era: 1,750 | 2
-----
At this point I stopped rounding the numbers up
-----
Progressive Era: 1,750 | 0.85
Industrial Age: 1,500 | 0.36
Colonial Age: 1,250 | 0.15
Late Middle Ages: 1,000 | 0.06
High Middle Ages - Bronze: Is it really worth counting?

So if we're trading down, probably best to start looking between the Space Ages and Modern Era. How many goods are needed. If we take buildings from each age:

Era: cost for one GB (running total one building, running total two buildings each age)
Modern: 2
Post-Modern: 4 (6, 12)
Contemporary: 7 (13, 26)
Tomorrow: 15 (28, 56)
Future: 30 (58, 116)
Arctic Future: 63 (121, 242)
Oceanic Future: 135 (256, 512)
Virtual Future: 294 (550, 1,100)
Space Mars: 750, (1,300, 2,600)
Space Asteroid Belt: 1875 (3,175, 4,475*)
Space Venus: 4,500 (7,675, 8,975*)

Really, the Truce Tower would work the best on gathering goods for Space Age Great Buildings and brand new Ages if you're OK with waiting 3-6 months at least to gather the goods. Because then you're not trading the goods down

By the time you get down to Oceanic Future from trading down goods the value of using the Dynamic Tower is really starting to diminish. Realistically most players won't need more than 550 SAV goods traded down. That would allow them to get a Himeji plus one building from each age below, and the Space Age Great Buildings are so niche they may not really need to worry about those until they reach Space Ages anyway.

It costs 2,781 Forge Points to raise that Truce Tower to Level 10. How many Forge Points would it realistically cost to get all your Great Buildings if you were buying Venus goods and trading down? That answer is going to change depending on how many Great Buildings you intend to buy and in what ages you want them

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Like @Ebeondi Asi, I was a big fan of TT for providing high era goods that I could trade down. But, with a few "unfair" trades, a generous guildmate hooked me up with more SAV goods than the TT could provide in a year. I removed my level 25 TT that day with no regrets.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

On a different topic, but in line with the thread movement, Trading down in the Market has become clogged with endless trade down few players are taking.Where trade up are being snatched up instantly. I believe this is due to negotiations requiring previous era goods.
I have pretty much given up attempting to trade down unless I am offering a big discount.

 

[Dimondus]

Hence all the Build So-n-So Cultural Building or Gain 3500 Enthusiasm quests.

Yeah, right, do you even see the completed sprite? Guess not
For any enthusiasm quests you should use Roads (build trails then latest roads on top - quest completed)