[Question] What is a "fair" hood??

[DeletedUser8152]

You seem to be under the assumption that "fair" is only relevant to you freeloaders, jaelis. A fair hood has to incorporate the diamond users, as well.

I don't assume that at all. Indeed, you could turn the problem around. If having very low age players in your hood is valuable, then it is unfair that some high age players get that while others don't.

However, I don't myself see that having low age players in your hood is very valuable. A few ages lower, yes, but iron when you are progressive, or something like that? That's just my opinion on it.

Of course, you are yourself assuming that I don't buy diamonds, which I do. I fight with them and everything. I'm sure I don't buy as many as some people, but I don't think Inno would consider me a freeloader.

 

[DeletedUser10755]

The thread it about fairness in neighborhoods, let's stay on topic. OP says...

"We are having a discussion in the Proposal Forum about plundering and everyone talks about so called "fair" hoods I would like everyone's opinion on what a "fair" hood should be and maybe make a proposal to send to the Devs to tweak the Neighborhood merge system."​

It asks for opinion about what it means to everyone, and it says -maybe- make a proposal. So it's not about plundering, it's not about premium vs. non-premium users. You're of course free to base your opinion about "fair" hoods on those things, but let's not go off-topic here and discuss those things in this same thread.

Phantom, I agree with staying on topic but must point out what is at the heart of this issue and everyone is dancing around it. The origin of the discussion stems from the topic of plundering. During that discussion, players made complaints that the current plundering system (for various reasons) was causing feelings of unfairness. To combat these plunder-induced feelings of unfairness, players then proposed ideas on how to adjust, rearrange, and "fix" the neighborhood merge system.

If you remove plundering from the equation the "problem" goes away because there is no penalty, loss, or compromise of resources when plundering is discounted, and therefore no unfairness.

Let's call as spade, a spade; this entire thread is indeed about plundering.

 

[DeletedUser10266]

Phantom, I agree with staying on topic but must point out what is at the heart of this issue and everyone is dancing around it. The origin of the discussion stems from the topic of plundering. During that discussion, players made complaints that the current plundering system (for various reasons) was causing feelings of unfairness. To combat these plunder-induced feelings of unfairness, players then proposed ideas on how to adjust, rearrange, and "fix" the neighborhood merge system.

If you remove plundering from the equation the "problem" goes away because there is no penalty, loss, or compromise of resources when plundering is discounted, and therefore no unfairness.

Let's call as spade, a spade; this entire thread is indeed about plundering.

The heart of the issue has nothing to do with plundering. The heart of the issue is the merge system used to decide proper hoods. Plundering is just a sub issue of it. The arguments that spurred this thread were about people multiple ages higher then others that were just starting out. No one said they were against the plunder system but more so it is demoralizing to new players to have people to advanced to stop plundering them. Thus, this thread is not entirely about plundering. People are just trying to use it as an outlet to complain how plundering ruins the game and thus take it off topic. At the end of the day as several people have said plundering will not go away. People need to accept that and work around it. Being plundered doesnt make hoods unfair. Being plundered by people who should not be in the hood to begin with or being in a hood you shouldnt be in is unfair.

 

[DeletedUser10755]

The heart of the issue has nothing to do with plundering. The heart of the issue is the merge system used to decide proper hoods. Plundering is just a sub issue of it. The arguments that spurred this thread were about people multiple ages higher then others that were just starting out. No one said they were against the plunder system but more so it is demoralizing to new players to have people to advanced to stop plundering them. Thus, this thread is not entirely about plundering. People are just trying to use it as an outlet to complain how plundering ruins the game and thus take it off topic. At the end of the day as several people have said plundering will not go away. People need to accept that and work around it. Being plundered doesnt make hoods unfair. Being plundered by people who should not be in the hood to begin with or being in a hood you shouldnt be in is unfair.

You're not making any sense here; this is "cart before the horse" logic. Answer this question, why change the current merge system?

 

[DeletedUser10266]

You're not making any sense here; this is "cart before the horse" logic. Answer this question, why change the current merge system?

It is not the merge system itself that is the issue. It is the outliers caused by the algorithm used to make hoods. Currently someone in Iron age could end up in a full hood of ME/PME players who can not be stopped from attacking and plundering mercilessly. Likewise, a PME player can end up in an all BA/IA hood where attacking, plundering and m/p are near meaningless for them and causes them to get bored with the game. The merge system isnt broken it just isnt at the level it really should be. I hate to say it should be perfect because nothing can be perfect but in its current state the occurrence of bad hood placement is too frequent.

 

[DeletedUser8152]

For the reason bruic said. For some of us, it feels unfair to a low age player to get stuck in a hood with a bunch of high age players.

Because he gets plundered constantly, yes. Is that your point?

But it is possible to support and enjoy the basic idea of plundering, and still think it is unfair for ME players to pile on a IA player. How many people feel that way, and what they feel an appropriate age difference is, are the things I am interested in hearing about in this discussion.

 

[DeletedUser10755]

The heart of the issue has nothing to do with plundering. The heart of the issue is the merge system used to decide proper hoods.

It is not the merge system itself that is the issue. It is the outliers caused by the algorithm used to make hoods. Currently someone in Iron age could end up in a full hood of ME/PME players who can not be stopped from attacking and plundering mercilessly. Likewise, a PME player can end up in an all BA/IA hood where attacking, plundering and m/p are near meaningless for them and causes them to get bored with the game. The merge system isnt broken it just isnt at the level it really should be. I hate to say it should be perfect because nothing can be perfect but in its current state the occurrence of bad hood placement is too frequent.

Ok, so which is it? Is the topic about the merger system or not because you just contradicted yourself. And if this isn't about plundering why are you using it as a reason to change the algorithm?

You still haven't provided any good reason to change anything and still won't admit that this is 100% rooted in plundering. Nothing is lost by getting attacked; there are no penalties. Your hood isn't the main source of m/p'ing so that point is irrelevant.

So, again what is the point here?

 

[DeletedUser10266]

Fine let me clarify. It is not the entire merge system but a part of it. That aside it is not 100% rooted in plundering. Yes lower age players in high hoods get plundered which is unfair but how is it fair for someone in CA or even IndA to go onto a 1.5 scale map they arent designed for and face units more accustomed to the map and have stats to suit that scale. Also how is it fair for a ME/PME person to be put in a hood that they cant m/p and get bps for their age. By my count that makes 1/4 of the reasons plundering based so at best it is 25% rooted on plundering but it becomes the primary focus because of all the people who are anti-plundering. There are more reasons to change the merge system then there are to change plundering(which wont happen anyways).

- - - Updated - - -

Your hood isn't the main source of m/p'ing so that point is irrelevant.

Except if you are top or near the top of your guild and have very few people near your age so your point is irrelevant.

 

[DeletedUser9433]

You might want to look up disingenuous. I can assure you that my comparison is sincere. Maybe you were thinking of a false analogy, but this would still be incorrect since the center of the discussion is "fairness" and, without an doubt, the diamond system is unbalanced and favors certain demographics over others. The details may be different between the two, but the overarching themes remain the same.


Again, here we have claims that the majority of players are receiving an unfair dose of "fairness" and I'm still asking for evidence. A world-wide poll? I'm not trying to unduly criticize anyone's input here, but do you have any idea of the amount of time and money that would have to be dedicated to that? Ask yourself, from INNO's or any other company's perspective, "Is the juice worth the squeeze?".


You hit the nail on the head and perhaps didn't even realize it though; the only reason the game exists IS to generate profits. If this is the case, and I agree with you, there is absolutely zero incentive to change anything in therms of "fairness" because it would reduce profit. And until profits are legitimately compromised, you're not going to get INNO's attention.


Now if this thread existed for the sole purpose of each player to discuss what fairness is, that would be just fine and dandy. However, that's not what we have here. Based on what people are writing, this is an attempt to generate momentum for change and worse, a platform for complaints. You see, a few unhappy players are trying to recognize and solve a problem that INNO and the rest of us DO NOT BELIEVE TO EXIST.


Two words: Futility & Insanity.

I understand the word usage quite well thank you. If you were sincere allow me to offer you another 10 cent word, deluded. It appears you took my worldwide usage to mean the earth, in context I felt it was clear that it was all the game worlds here in FoE which might cost them a few minutes of programming time if that.

In my post no claims as to fairness were intended to be made at all, therefore the need for a poll. You are certainly condescending here alluding that I don't realize the only reason this game exists when I made that statement clear. Pretty clear to me you are simply making up facts not in evidence by stating this as factual ,"... there is absolutely zero incentive to change anything in therms of "fairness" because it would reduce profit". You nor INNO can't possibly know this to be accurate and is pure speculation on your part. I urge you to disagree with me on any points I may make but please don't resort to making up stuff out of thin air in a feeble attempt to justify your position.

 

[DeletedUser10755]

For the reason bruic said. For some of us, it feels unfair to a low age player to get stuck in a hood with a bunch of high age players.

Bruic didn't give any reasons except plundering, and INNO can't be held responsible for players taking advantage of a vetted system. Again, what specific thing about this is unfair?

Fine let me clarify. It is not the entire merge system but a part of it. That aside it is not 100% rooted in plundering. Yes lower age players in high hoods get plundered which is unfair but how is it fair for someone in CA or even IndA to go onto a 1.5 scale map they arent designed for and face units more accustomed to the map and have stats to suit that scale. Also how is it fair for a ME/PME person to be put in a hood that they cant m/p and get bps for their age. By my count that makes 1/4 of the reasons plundering based so at best it is 25% rooted on plundering but it becomes the primary focus because of all the people who are anti-plundering. There are more reasons to change the merge system then there are to change plundering(which wont happen anyways).

Not sure where you pulled that math formula from but it doesn't make sense and isn't an accurate gauge of really anything. I've been asking what are the reasons which no one can provide.

• Plundering is the reason, and most refuse to admit it
• Changing the system for the sake of changing the system won't solve anything
• There is no measurable "unfair" dynamic occurring in hoods, this includes feelings
• This topic is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt of generating steam to eventually change a system already deemed not-subject-to-change

- - - Updated - - -

Except if you are top or near the top of your guild and have very few people near your age so your point is irrelevant.

Bruic, you getting mad doesn't cause pertinent information to magically not apply. If you are relying on your hood to m/p and get BPs you need to join a better guild. That's not your hood's fault.

I understand the word usage quite well thank you. If you were sincere allow me to offer you another 10 cent word, deluded. It appears you took my worldwide usage to mean the earth, in context I felt it was clear that it was all the game worlds here in FoE which might cost them a few minutes of programming time if that.

In my post no claims as to fairness were intended to be made at all, therefore the need for a poll. You are certainly condescending here alluding that I don't realize the only reason this game exists when I made that statement clear. Pretty clear to me you are simply making up facts not in evidence by stating this as factual ,"... there is absolutely zero incentive to change anything in therms of "fairness" because it would reduce profit". You nor INNO can't possibly know this to be accurate and is pure speculation on your part. I urge you to disagree with me on any points I may make but please don't resort to making up stuff out of thin air in a feeble attempt to justify your position.

Words mean things, your usage of disingenuous was improper. You don't have to get all bent out of shape and attempt to portray my points as deluded because you are embarrassed; I'm not trying to mislead anyone. What's funny is that your proposal is to a problem that exists only in speculation. Maybe if you didn't try to use words outside of your daily vocabulary and stayed on-topic, you could better explain your position? Resorting to petty jabs doesn't strengthen your case.

 

[DeletedUser8152]

So insane, I'm having trouble figuring out what you are saying for yourself. I see that you don't think people should complain about plundering, and that you think most of us are complaining about plundering. If you want to just take that as a given, ok. No one is going to change your mind about what you believe.

But I would still be curious to know what you think a fair or unfair hood merger would be. Perhaps anything at all is fair, people's ages don't matter? Perhaps you think there are some mergers that would be unfair, but you don't believe they ever happen? (If so what's an example of something you think would be unfair?) Maybe you think the hood mergers are often unfair, but you don't think it should be a fair game? Or is it something else entirely?

 

[DeletedUser10266]

Not sure where you pulled that math formula from but it doesn't make sense and isn't an accurate gauge of really anything. I've been asking what are the reasons which no one can provide.

• Plundering is the reason, and most refuse to admit it
• Changing the system for the sake of changing the system won't solve anything
• There is no measurable "unfair" dynamic occurring in hoods, this includes feelings
• This topic is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt of generating steam to eventually change a system already deemed not-subject-to-change

Bruic, you getting mad doesn't cause pertinent information to magically not apply. If you are relying on your hood to m/p and get BPs you need to join a better guild. That's not your hood's fault.

First off you are generating a lot of animosity with your condescending approach to every reply you have made thus far. Maybe not your intention but all of your responses are coming of highly condescending thus being met with negativity. And as far as points I have made them clear but obviously not clear enough.

It is not fair to be plundered by someone who you can not reasonably compete with on level ground. By that I mean with the same boosts you should at least have a chance to beat them in combat.

It is also not fair to be put in a hood where you are the only one in an advanced age since this reduces the possibility for bps for your age and can cause you to lose interest in the game.

I also do not think it is fair to have to fight units designed for a map scale with units that were not designed for that map. Fighting progressive units and higher is always on a 1.5 scale map that IndA and lower troops are not designed to be on.

And lastly if you are not in a guild(which some people prefer) your hood is in fact your primary source of m/p so being in a proper hood is important. And yes you can say well that is their fault for not being in a guild but that implies that you have to conform to a set playstyle.

Only one of those points is based off of plundering while the others are based off the merge system. And anyone can assume what the intent of this thread is but we all know what happens when you start throwing out assumptions.

 

[DeletedUser8944]

You still haven't provided any good reason to change anything and still won't admit that this is 100% rooted in plundering. Nothing is lost by getting attacked; there are no penalties. Your hood isn't the main source of m/p'ing so that point is irrelevant.

You are wrong about Bruic not providing any good reason to "fix" the hood merge system, he has stated several times about Bronze Age players getting put with Modern and Post Modern Era players, an Bronze Age player should ONLY be put with other Bronze Age players as they cannot hold off any other ages Iron Age can at least hold of a Early Middle Age player with archers but and Progressive Era, Modern and Post Modern era Player can pretty much walk through anyone other age player defense's as I did the yesterday I attacked a neighbor with a 12% attack 188% def bonus and lost 3 units and that's with my high 89% att/def, I had all PE unit he had a mix of InA and CA units so the 1.5 map hinders any units under PE but I am NOT saying PE should be put with only ME/PME players, because I believe the 3 age gap is fine so the lower age player can m/p(if the choose to) their higher aged players for more chances to those high age BP but they should just make sure that 3 age gap is maintained and even in my hood is getting further than 3 ages as we have the #1 about to go to ME and the last guy is LMA but still that is close to the 3 age gap because the LMA guy COULD be about to go to CA and #1 is still PE so there is the 3 age gap.

Also I do not buy diamonds and am about to hit the top 200 in Fel so not buying diamonds has not hindered me in any way and yes I use diamonds that i have earned and I don't mind being behind those that buy diamonds they keep the free for me to play and some of them are good friends of mine and help me a lot.

 

[DeletedUser10755]

I'll reiterate my points:

1. This topic is unnecessary because it solves nothing. In fact, no one has even proven there is a problem.
2. The topic is pointless because "people getting plundered" is the driving force of the need for change which has been specifically addressed by INNO and will not be adjusted.
3. For the sake of discussion I ask, why do we need to change the hood merger system? Bruic did mention a good point about not being in a guild and that is valid. But he also solves the problem a few words later by admitting there are things a player can do the mitigate this. I agree that the vast majority of issues relating to topic can be solved by smarter playing of currently available systems. We don't need to do anything to fix this.

So insane, I'm having trouble figuring out what you are saying for yourself. I see that you don't think people should complain about plundering, and that you think most of us are complaining about plundering. If you want to just take that as a given, ok. No one is going to change your mind about what you believe.

But I would still be curious to know what you think a fair or unfair hood merger would be. Perhaps anything at all is fair, people's ages don't matter? Perhaps you think there are some mergers that would be unfair, but you don't believe they ever happen? (If so what's an example of something you think would be unfair?) Maybe you think the hood mergers are often unfair, but you don't think it should be a fair game? Or is it something else entirely?

I never said people shouldn't complain; I pointed out that is what some people were doing instead of offering up their own idea of "fairness". I also never said most of you were complaining. Actually, I referred to it as the minority when mentioning it. My idea of fair is what we currently have and that any revision is unnecessary, barring new and compelling information.

You are wrong about Bruic not providing any good reason to "fix" the hood merge system, he has stated several times about Bronze Age players getting put with Modern and Post Modern Era players, an Bronze Age player should ONLY be put with other Bronze Age players as they cannot hold off any other ages Iron Age can at least hold of a Early Middle Age player with archers but and Progressive Era, Modern and Post Modern era Player can pretty much walk through anyone other age player defense's as I did the yesterday I attacked a neighbor with a 12% attack 188% def bonus and lost 3 units and that's with my high 89% att/def, I had all PE unit he had a mix of InA and CA units so the 1.5 map hinders any units under PE but I am NOT saying PE should be put with only ME/PME players, because I believe the 3 age gap is fine so the lower age player can m/p(if the choose to) their higher aged players for more chances to those high age BP but they should just make sure that 3 age gap is maintained and even in my hood is getting further than 3 ages as we have the #1 about to go to ME and the last guy is LMA but still that is close to the 3 age gap because the LMA guy COULD be about to go to CA and #1 is still PE so there is the 3 age gap.

And I have repeatedly asked for proof that this is occuring on such a level that it requires INNO's attention and no one has provided anything. INNO hasn't made significant adjustment to the hood merger system to address this problem so the logical conclusion is that INNO is satisfied the system works.

Even if we assume that this (IA & PME players in the same hood) is happening to everyone; discounting plundering, how is this creating a measurable disadvantage to lower age players that cannot be mitigated by in-game means?

 

[DeletedUser8152]

And I have repeatedly asked for proof that this is occuring on such a level that it requires INNO's attention and no one has provided anything.

How much would this have to happen for you to feel that it is a problem?

INNO hasn't made significant adjustment to the hood merger system to address this problem so the logical conclusion is that INNO is satisfied the system works.

This might indeed be true, but does that mean it is not a reasonable topic for discussion?

Even if we assume that this (IA & PME players in the same hood) is happening to everyone; discounting plundering, how is this creating a measurable disadvantage to lower age players that cannot be mitigated by in-game means?

Arguably if it happened to everyone, that would be fair because everyone is in the same situation. Do you think it is fair if it happens to a small fraction of beginning players? It seems obvious to me that they are at a disadvantage compared to those who are put in a same age hood... do you disagree?

1. This topic is unnecessary ...
2. The topic is pointless ...

If these are your opinions, why are you participating in the discussion? That's not meant as a suggestion to leave, just as a question about what you are trying to say.

 

[DeletedUser10266]

Insane you seem to be overlooking the fact this is in the question section and not proposals. As such it doesnt have to result in anything it is simply a place for people to discuss the topic, in this case what a "fair" hood would be. I do however think this thread has gone way beyond topic and should be closed and another one opened to further discuss or leave it as is.

 

[DeletedUser2145]

1. This topic is unnecessary because it solves nothing. In fact, no one has even proven there is a problem.
2. The topic is pointless because "people getting plundered" is the driving force of the need for change which has been specifically addressed by INNO and will not be adjusted.

How is the thread pointless? Someone has seen that a discussion exists about a certain topic, so they're trying to see what players feel a fair merge would be for them. The idea behind this thread is by far the most logical, most helpful, and most useful to decide if there is indeed an issue and if yes, if there exists a way to resolve it. This is how it has always been expected the forum to work --- have a discussion, see how others feel, and if needed create a proposal that benefits everyone.

It doesn't matter what "the driving force" is. The actual topic is how players feel neighborhoods should be composed and that's the only thing that should be discussed. It doesn't imply any change or discussion about plundering.

Now, if everyone would be kind enough to go take a break, blow off some steam, and return to the thread when you feel you can continue the discussion without it getting heated, that would be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[DeletedUser10755]

How much would this have to happen for you to feel that it is a problem?

If the forum was overflowing with complaints it would be cause for attention. I'm not going to just invent a number but, to me, if over 40-50% of player had significant issues then it should be not only discussed but put up for change.

This might indeed be true, but does that mean it is not a reasonable topic for discussion?

Ok so using that reasoning, it would be just as useful to engage in global defensive plans and preparations for a potential eggplant monster invasion. There must be a base for change.

Arguably if it happened to everyone, that would indeed be fair because everyone is in the same situation. Do you think it is fair if it happens to a small fraction of beginning players? It seems obvious to me that they are at a disadvantage compared to those who are put in a same age hood... do you disagree?

I've been in my share of crappy hoods and I think it comes down to how that individual player handles the situation. It's not anyone else's fault for "bad" decision making made by uninformed/new players.

If these are your opinions, why are you participating in the discussion? That's not meant as a suggestion to leave, just as a question about what you are trying to say.

So my points aren't valid because they go against what you are vying for? I'm providing a converse prospective in the "fairness" discussion.

Insane you seem to be overlooking the fact this is in the question section and not proposals. As such it doesnt have to result in anything it is simply a place for people to discuss the topic, in this case what a "fair" hood would be. I do however think this thread has gone way beyond topic and should be closed and another one opened to further discuss or leave it as is.

Actually, I've addressed that and will again. Here's the first post:

We are having a discussion in the Proposal Forum about plundering and everyone talks about so called "fair" hoods I would like everyone's opinion on what a "fair" hood should be and maybe make a proposal to send to the Devs to tweak the Neighborhood merge system.

This lays the groundwork for the entire discussion and clearly states an intent, if the conditions are right, to make a proposal.

To go back to the topic.

This question implies several things:

• Hearing multiple views of fairness
• An agreement on what fairness means in regards to hoods
• A description of how the current system is unfair
• Proposals to change the system if it is determined a change needed

So far we have had several ideas about how to change hoods, but none of them address a true need. They are merely changes with the hope of making things better. A few others have chimed in and either complained or pointed to plundering as the culprit in the problem; I'm not saying their points are invalid, just that their actions aren't going to cause a positive change.

I think we are all still interested in opinions on fairness. My point is that anything past that, this thread included, is irreverent because the overwhelming and fundamental cause of "unfairness" is higher age players plundering lower age players. And anything aimed at adjusting this is not going to be successful unless you have a very good reason.