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Why the definition of marriage matters

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DeletedUser4844

Since marriage is a man-made thing, not a biological thing, we can't really use science to prove what the definition ought to be. We can perhapos use it for guidelines in some cases. Mostly, however, marriage is a contract between two people, at least now. It used to be more of a contract between two family groups or clans. Nowadays, marriage usually, but not always, involves a religious ceremony, and involves certain legal and ethical obligations between two people. Marriage often involves the creation of offspring, and, long ago, people discovered that too much interbreeding between people that are closely related often results in highly damaged or even non-viable offspring. This is considered a bad thing for society, and thus a taboo arose about breeding between close relatives (by taboo I mean it is considered both icky and very bad). One of the aspects of marriage (not a necessary, or a sufficient aspect to define marriage, but one of the aspect) involves breeding between the two people involved, and so marrying a close relative also became taboo.

At various points in time, marriage arrangements have been allowed involving more then two people. Sometimes with 1 man and multiple women. In much rarare cases (by case, I mean culture, not a particular marriage) between one woman and multiple men, and in at least one case between multiple men and multiple women.

Until recently, most of the major world religions have forbidden marriage between same sex partners as taboo. However, not only do we see all kinds of same sex pairings, which simply don't have the name of marriage, but serve the exact same functions, occurring in human society, but we see many same sex pairings occuring in nature as well, so if you want to go by biology, same sex marriage is a perfectly reasonable thing to have. There is no "damage" to the offspring resulting from same sex marriage, as there are no offspring resulting from same sex marriage. Primarily, I believe the taboo developed solely because people thought it was icky, and so the taboo became part of most religious belief systems. If there is any other reason for the taboo it involves the each of the major world religions wanting their followers to breed as many people as possible in order to overwhelm the other major world religions through the overwhelming weight of sheer numbers, and therefore strongly encouraging marriage and breeding of as many offspring as possible among followers, while simultaneously doing what they can to prevent breeding among followers of other religions. Not what I would call an ethical reason to prevent same sex marriage.

In the old days, offspring were really necessary, because 4000 years ago there was no such thing as social security or medicare, and if you got old and didn't have kids who would take care of you (or younger friends) you were probably just going to be food for wolves. Not something we want to emulate. In somewhat later times, when marriage was mostly a contract between families in order to concentrate the wealth of both to make them more powerful, offspring who inherited would be the way to accomplish that. Again, not exactly an ethical reason these days for us to prevent gay marriage. What we have now for reasons to prevent gay marriage mostly consists of a whole bunch of old traditions most people don't understand the origin of and reason for, along with an enormous ick factor among heterosexuals who generally won't acknowledge this because they recognize it as an immoral bias.

Jesus Christ has always been portrayed as being loving, above all. I don't think he would have objected to gay marriage, even if the old testament does. More likely he would have had a problem to those who would, through and and all means, attempt to deny gay people the chance to express their love to one another.

But hey, that's just my opinion.
 

DeletedUser

Back to the proposition in hand........ Should the definition of marriage be changed to something else?

Why not? An expansion of legally defined marriage types might make things easier.

Marriage Straight
Gay Marriage Male
Gay Marriage Female
Gay Marriage Polygamous
etc.

As long as law does not discriminate in terms of rights, especially tax and benefits it would do no harm to expand the types of legally recognised marriage
 

DeletedUser

The definition of marriage as between one man and one woman is only right. Think of all the problems that can evolve from same sex.
Its not safe, its not sane, its not moral, its not just, its not pure, and when you get right down to the roots of the relationship, I highly doubt its even fun.
...
Not the right idea. Regardless of the ability or inability to have kids, a man and woman can have a deep love and relationship in a way same sex can not.

I take real offense to your opinions. I've pretty much known that I was gay ever since i was a wee little toddler. Based off of my personal experience and the numerous other gay couples I have met, I can confidently say that the love felt is no less than that of a straight couple. In fact, I would argue that gay love has to be even more deep because of all the hate and stigmatism we have to put up with to even be with each other. As for the definition of marriage, the issue is completely legislative (not religious) and should be dealt with as such. Now that the bulwark of that evil DOMA bill has been found to be unconstitutional, as it should have been, I feel that in the end that the definition doesn't even matter. I've never been particular to definitions, and I don't trust their limiting nature. So long as I am able to be with the man of my dreams and live a happy life with him and get the same benefits as any other married couple would have, everything is all right. On another note, the complications resultant from the Supreme Court's decision should eventually pan out. It makes no sense for any state to deny recognition of a marriage consecrated in another state. If states will not deny recognition to straight couples, then it would most certainly be unconstitutional to deny recognition to gay couples.
 

DeletedUser8204

I believe men and women that marry the opposite sex are very proud people but you don't see them having straight parades.

Nothing wrong with parades though, live it up!

This whole issue could be handled very easily.

If you are straight and married you want people to know.

If you are gay and married you want people to know.

A marriage licence should simply say at the top....

Straight marriage or Gay Marriage

Same rights, both parties are very proud people know about their partner, and both have a legal marriage license.

I welcome any logical and polite challenge to why this would not work.

I also welcome fans.
 

DeletedUser

I believe men and women that marry the opposite sex are very proud people but you don't see them having straight parades.

Nothing wrong with parades though, live it up!

This whole issue could be handled very easily.

If you are straight and married you want people to know.

If you are gay and married you want people to know.

A marriage licence should simply say at the top....

Straight marriage or Gay Marriage

Same rights, both parties are very proud people know about their partner, and both have a legal marriage license.

I welcome any logical and polite challenge to why this would not work.

I also welcome fans.

The issue with this lies in the fact that the legal distinction between gay marriages & straight marriages, even though it is just in name, would make it seem as if the government is officially seeing gay couples as different from straight couples when really the two unions should be considered completely the same.
Although your proposed change would certainly be a step in the right direction, it still does not reach full equality. It would be somewhat comparable to the "separate but equal" doctrine of the Jim Crow era, albeit much less severe.
 

DeletedUser5556

The church gave up all rights to say who should be married and gave those rights to the state in the name of racial hatred a long time ago. Marriage licences were started to stop interracial marrages and the church went along with it. In doing so it rendered unto ceaser that which is God's by giving the state the power to decide who could be "joined in HOLY matrimony". The church reconised the state's power above that of God and now their chickens have come home to roost.
Every time a clergyman asks to see a marriage licence they engage in ceaser worship by requiring the states permission to approach God and the couple give their vows before Him. They say it's a religous cerimony and they are right but now the religion is ceaser worship and their new god calls the shots. If their new god says gays can be married then that's that. Did they think their sin would bear good fruit?! All good things come from God and turning your back on Him will not end well.
If they want to straighten out their mess they have to go back and repent of the sin that they started it with and put God back in His proper place. They will have to say that marriage licences infringe on religous freedom and refuse to acknowledge any authority claimed by them. If two members of "the Church", the Body of Christ, meet the bibical criteria and wish to be joined as one before God and receive His blessing on their union the clergy should do so without any concern about marriage licences. God's will should be the only concern. If they aren't part of the Body then the cerimony shouldn't be done regardless of any licence. You can't be babtised unless you proclaim Christ as Lord and you shouldn'd have the christian marrage cerimony either.
Then the church would have a right to once again claim marrage as a bibical institution and complain that only clergy can perform true marrage cerimonies and all the rest weither hetero or homo sexual are cival unions representing cival domestic contracts.
That's my 2 cents worth. Dissagree or agree but please do check the history behind it first. An earlier post mentioned that in bibical times if a man's brother died he married his widowed wife. This is true but the relationship was usually nonsexual. In those times, as in many Middle Eastern countries today, a woman could enter into any business contracts without a male relative to represent her. The brother married her guarantee their care and safty. Also, even though poligamy was accepted, Christ taught that it was better to have one wife and devote all your attention to her.
 

DeletedUser8428

Although I think you're not correct, I respect your right to say what you believe.

Throughout history, there have been large numbers of individuals who did not have a formal faith community or formal faith. Are those people not allowed to pledge to each other their support and affection - can they not marry? You mention "If two members of "the Church", the Body of Christ, meet the bibical criteria" ... do you believe that only Christians should be allowed to marry? And what exactly are the biblical criteria? Old Testament or New?

Marriage was around long before the first century earliest Christians. It was not recognized in Europe as a religious sacrament among Christians until 1215 AD and even that was not universal - Martin Luther's 16th century Protestant Reformation did not recognize marriage as a religious sacrament and called for European nations to provide governmental oversight of marriage as a cultural institution. Marriage was less a personal event than a family or tribal one and concerns about money, rather than race, were the impetus for getting "permission" to marry via bans (pronouncement of intent) to prevent the loss of a resource (dowry) to an unacceptable family.

It wasn't until the early part of the 20th century in the US that parentally arranged marriages as a means of increasing family wealth or social standing fell from favor. I think you are absolutely correct about state miscegentation laws and the impact of racism on governmental ownership of marriage as an institution. And although I have mixed feelings about the need for a marriage license (governmental oversight helps protect both parties to any contract, marriage or otherwise ... but a license to love and support one another sounds a bit ridiculous) I am fully convinced that, as a practice that has existed for millenia outside of any formalized religion, it is owned by none.
 

DeletedUser5556

I agree that anyone can and should be able to enter into a domestic relationship and call it what they want but the church shouldn't be required to reconize it. They should be entirely seperate. If you want to have it reconized by the state go get a license and have a civil cerimony and have a civil marrage but the church should only have to reconize that you have entered into a legally binding contractual partnership and are financially obligated to it. Nothing more than any other bussiness contract. Furthermore the church shouldn't have the power to initiate or implement such a contract as that falls under the power of the state and is up to the courts, not the church, to enforce. It should be entirely up to the state to mannage and decide who meets the criteria of age and mental compancy to enter into legally binding contracts and initiate them based only on those criteria provided by cival law that they would use for any other contract and should enforce them the in the same manner. They can call it what they want. Cival marrage, domestic partnership, cival partnership, ect... it doesn't matter. "A rose by any other name".
If they want to enter into a religious marrage that should be seperate. An entirely different institution that the state has no part in. They go to the leaders in there religious institution(I'm Christian and so I tend to speak in those terms but I don't mean to exclude other faiths) and if they meet their criteria the cerimony will be performed. No license required, no input or requirements from the state. The vows are given to God not the state so the religious contract is with Him and the state should have no say in it.
I would guess that many would want to do both and that's fine as long as they are seperate. A church wedding should be more than a backdrop for some pretty wedding photo's! The words and venue have meaning.
As far as who the state allows to "marry" it's not the churches problem. The romans were doing all kinds of bad stuff and Christ never instructed his followers to try to change the government. He said to tell others of His teaching and He would make the changes heart by heart.
 

DeletedUser

Throughout history, there have been large numbers of individuals who did not have a formal faith community or formal faith. Are those people not allowed to pledge to each other their support and affection - can they not marry? You mention "If two members of "the Church", the Body of Christ, meet the bibical criteria" ... do you believe that only Christians should be allowed to marry? And what exactly are the biblical criteria? Old Testament or New?

The simple answer to this is your next paragraph is incorrect. Marriage was a biblical thing but it wasn't the same as now or as it was in the 1200's. Marriage was in the eyes of the Lord. It wasn't a document or something that needed to be in a ceremony. It wasn't that way at all. If a man lay with a women(have sex) they are one flesh in the eyes of the Lord. Plain and simple. No vowels or rings need to be exchanged. No rice thrown and no get away car is needed for a honeymoon. Now that obviously wasn't the only way

Today its different because society needs documentation for things like health insurance or deeds for a house and property or cars, legal action and or taxes. Gays have the same rights as straight couples. Straight couples have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex. So do gay couples. They don't have the rights to marry someone of the same sex and neither do straight couples. That is the same rights. Now that has all changed in many states. But the rights were always the same for everyone and everyone had equal rights.
 

DeletedUser8428

Sorry, Monkey. Although I'm most bothered by your concept of equal, I'll need to think about that one. In any case, "everyone" has rarely had equal rights, even as regards marriage. In Louisiana, the "Code Noir" strictly proibited marriage between Catholics and anyone who was not Catholic. Although some northern and southern states repealed miscegenation laws during the Reconstruction, by the late 1800's most states had reenacted them. Nationally, it was not until 1967 that it became legal for whites to marry anyone with a different shade of skin (we didn't discriminate solely against blacks - we are an equal-opportunity discriminator). The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 (still in effect today - don't you think it's time for a re-write?) prohibits marriage (even for heterosexuals!) if the purpose is to provide benefits for the immigrant - so the government additionally regulates marriage between US citizens and anyone who is NOT. As with most laws attempting to police social behavior, it's always about "US" vs "THEM", THEM being whoever is our current target for institutionalized prejudice.
 

DeletedUser11729

I get so tired of the religious nut-bags screaming about how MARRIAGE is & has always been between ONE MAN & ONE WOMAN--sorry, guys but you're not even close. Go your your precious holy book, it talks repeatedly in the "old testament" about one man marrying multiple wives. That alone should negate that often used argument, and open up the door for polyamorous relationships' recognition.

Marriage has been a legal institution from the government, or ruling powers that be for at least a millennium. In Feudal times, serfs would have to request permission from the lord of the land to marry. Something that was started before the christians even got to those lands, the "right" Jus Primæ Noctis, for the lord or ruler to be the first to sleep with. Marriage was a legal contract--for land, money, or political alliance--organized religion merely sealed the deal that had been worked out beforehand. Now, people marry for love, although there are still many marriages entered into for money, or legal protection such as immigration status, or things such as health insurance although those factors are generally frowned upon.

I, personally, am polyamorous and pansexual. My 'family' is mostly comprised of Leather-Dykes, and most of my socialization is with other gay Leathermen. The ideas behind marriage equality vary with the persons, but for myself, I am not opposed to letting the religious type have their conception of "marriage" provided that the social constructs get out of the notion that being a "wife" or a "husband" automatically construes certain privileges and rights... There are already legally binding constructs designed to convey those same rights such as powers-of-attorney.

Overall, the important thing is for the mass of society to get out of the business of people that don't affect them. If I choose to take a wife, a husband, both, or three of each, what IS important is for whatever rights I choose to give to them be respected by institutions created to administrate and oversee those rights and responsibilities. If I live happily-ever-after with a person of whatever sex, I want, and need, to know that I can give health insurance coverage to them, or when I die, my retirement and whatever benefits that may be left can be inherited by them, without too much mess.
 

DeletedUser18576

Think of it this way: what gives you the right to control someone else's life when they aren't directly harming anyone?
Your believes are yours alone and should in no way negatively interfere with another's life due to it.
 

DeletedUser15539

I'm curious. If the Supreme Court has ruled that same-sex marriage is now the law of the land, what possible legal objection can there be to polygamous marriage?
 

DeletedUser13838

It's all about legal rights. Traditional marriage provides certain legal rights to opposite-sex spouses. Same sex marriage provides the same legal rights to same-sex spouses. Polygamous marriages would expand those legal rights to additional spouses. That's no longer equal. Now if you want to say polygamous marriages are legal but only have 1 primary spouse with those rights then fine but what's the point? After all you can fake marry as many people as you want as long as there is only one legal marriage.
 

cbalto1927

Active Member
By allowing same-sex marriage and becomes law of land really opened many cans of worms. I really wish here in America left the issue alone as is instead of making policy on marriage. In my state and many other states many laws that used to be criminal are starting to become legal. After the ruling, the paradox's Box opened. In my state weed became legal, lowered age of consent, and etc. It makes me wonder is this country's morals really going down? It not too long ago that all of these issues would never be spoken of. I hope people realized if you legalized this, then another group would want to legalize that. just my 2 cents
 

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
Nowhere in the Constitution does the Federal government have any jurisdiction over what constitutes a "marriage". That being the case, it is a power reserved to the States under the Tenth Amendment. Or it would have been if the SCOTUS decision was based in any way on law.

However, if the Court was determined to rule on this issue, it made the Constitutionally correct one, as to have left the matter to the states would have violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. For someone to be treated equally under the law, a marriage valid in Massachusetts would have to be honored in, say, Alabama. But, again, they should not have accepted the case at all, as the Federal government has no power over this issue.

And to answer a question above concerning the Obergfell ruling possibly being used as a precedent to legalize polygamy, it is a virtual certainty that will happen, and probably sooner rather than later. If restrictions on who one loves is unconstitutional, restrictions on who all one loves must be as well.
 

cbalto1927

Active Member
yes and did you remember not too long ago Texas used to have a law that made sodomy illegal, however it became legal after the same-sex marriage ruling. In previous post i made is that once you legalize this then eventually would have to legalize that. It like a Domino effect. " restrictions on who one love is unconstitutional" would set a precedent as a starting point of the downfall of what is moral and what is immoral. Do you realized that if that statement is true then all the other issues we considered immoral would have the right to become moral?
 

DeletedUser13838

On what basis do you determine what is moral vs immoral? If the decision is religiously motivated then it must be understood that the USA is not a theocracy and it is not incumbent on the people to accept religious notions of morality.
 
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