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These are the top 3 players in my world, the only players so far over 100 million ranking points, that have no idea how to play the game... apparently.
The #1 player in our world has well over 100 Watchfires, around 25 Ritual Flames, the Saint Basil's Cathedral at level 10, and he even has the Monastery. He also has the Tower of Babel at level 10. He doesn't have a single Terrace Farm.
The #2 player has over 75 Watchfires as well as several Ritual Flames and also has the Saint Basil's Cathedral at level 10, plus a Drummer School. He also has 8 Tribal Squares and also has not a single Terrace Farm.
The #3 player has over 150 Watchfires, at least 20 Ritual Flames, a level 8 Saint Basil's Cathedral, 2 Drummer Schools, and just 2 Terrace Farms.
There are many ways to build a thriving town. Many of the more "successful" players believe in having a defense... and in at least the top few cases of my world, a very substantial one. If having a 0% defense works for you, that's great. This is clearly not the answer for everyone and is not required to "succeed" in this game.
Well, if you really gave it any thought, you'd realize that the first player has a flaw by having a monastery. They are completely obsolete for almost everyone. They require roads, and give significantly less protection per square than watchfires and ritual flames, the latter of which are painfully easy to get.
But, if you spend enough diamonds, yeah, you can forgive many sins. You can play sub-optimally, and still move forward.
The top players are not the best players, they are the ones that spent the most money. They can make mistakes and just pay more money and get past them. This assumes your "information" is actually correct, which is a strong assumption in any case. But, if they're spending enough money, pretty much anything they do will work out OK. It doesn't make it optimal.
The top player on Z already has six Terrace Farms, by the way. The second has two, but no Tribal Squares. But, he also has a monastery, so ...
a terrace farm that gets plundered 300 times, and collected from 12 times, has a gain of 12 useable productions ....
a basil and 6 watchfires is a guaranteed loss of 312+ productions every year to a daily player.
does the basil and 6 watch fires stop 312 plunders every year?
=
when a person has defense in their city, they lose production on that land every time, every collection, guaranteed.
if they have a building, and it gets plundered, it is essentially the same as having defense there. 0 usable production gained.
if they have a building, there is always a chance they can collect and gain usable production.
Minor quibble over the guaranteed loss phrasing. I think opportunity cost is more appropriate. That way a player can run the numbers for themselves when they ask "does the basil and 6 watch fires stop 312 plunders every year?". Assuming the player does not collect on time, but once a day, and they average at least one plunderer per hood rotation, then my mental fuzzy math says yes, that defense could potentially rebuke pillages on their set peices. Add the fringe benefits of peace of mind and psychological fun of 'winning' the defense game, and the investment has a strong argument of being worthwhile. Now if I could just own the company who gets paid for all the Basil renovations...
The #1 player in our world has well over 100 Watchfires, around 25 Ritual Flames, the Saint Basil's Cathedral at level 10, and he even has the Monastery. He also has the Tower of Babel at level 10. He doesn't have a single Terrace Farm.
The #2 player has over 75 Watchfires as well as several Ritual Flames and also has the Saint Basil's Cathedral at level 10, plus a Drummer School. He also has 8 Tribal Squares and also has not a single Terrace Farm.
The #3 player has over 150 Watchfires, at least 20 Ritual Flames, a level 8 Saint Basil's Cathedral, 2 Drummer Schools, and just 2 Terrace Farms.
There are many ways to build a thriving town. Many of the more "successful" players believe in having a defense... and in at least the top few cases of my world, a very substantial one.
I'm not necessary disagreeing or arguing against the data points you bring up, but dissecting them!
My first thought is: What age are all these players in? Do they have goods buildings, set peices or other high vale, but vulnerable, buildings? I assume higher age + good/vulnerable buildings = A LOT more incentive for pillaging and a lot more room for advanced pillagers in advanced eras. If I was getting attacked by 3+ pillagers a day, setting up a big defense to mitigate lose would make sense.
My second thought is: Ranking points =/= skill (As many of us have argued). GvG battle point farming and a real-life bankroll could be two big confounding variables to the skill formula. Also GE luck, since TF & TS can only be obtained there. Some claim to have handfuls of TFs they don't place while I have my measly two. which brings me to my...
Third thought: We don't know what is in their inventory, their intended play style or their situation. Without that data, we are stuck with the argument of "Well, these guys do it, so I should too!", which isn't a sound strategy. The monastery & Drummer schools show that advanced game knowledge is needed to understand why those buildings are there. Monastery is potentially there for looks/save a store building, obviously non-optimal, but then again most of our 'optimal' discussions presume infinite buildings. Drummer school for GvG, because I'm assuming the players are past LMA. GvG is another confounding variable, since high era users would have even more incentive to 'hurt' their enemy guild neighbors.
Regardless, You said it best. There are many ways to build a thriving town.
My data (Which is probably corrupted by the event list limitations and lazy data collection methods)
4/20-present
City Defense is 10%.
7 attacks -- 1 breach -- 0 plunders -- 7 unique attackers
~1 potential pillage expires 9PM tonight
~I raided many much times at the end of the week & weekend. Retribution attempted were expected.
My Current Totals:
28 days tracked
20 attacks -- 7 breaches -- 0 plunders
28 days = 140 FP (One TF 5FP/24hrs)
20 attacks = 100 FP threat potential lose
7 breaches = 35 FP potential lose(Presuming not collecting on time & 100% Max pillage rate)
???
Profit = 105 FP
This comparison presumes the opportunity cost of my city replacing a TF with a Basil/DC and/or WF/RoF. As discussed previously, FP investment would be required to make the GBs worthwhile. This data could be improved by tracking the attackers A/D%. Suggestions welcome.
Go look on Z, look at the top player, and look at the massive amount of Cherry Blossom farms he has. Pillars too. SoKs. Halls of Fame, etc... You should be able to figure it out from there, although it should be pretty obvious in the first place. Look at the second player. Notice lots of SoKs? Super high age? Lots of specials including Pillars?
Ok, then I fixed it for you. You have no proof (unless you provide it as requested) of that in the case of what I provided and therefore it is a completely irrelevant point to make.
No, it's not irrelevant, you're irrelevant. The point is perfectly valid, it discredits your use of top players as a milestone for "best players". Which is false information, and can not be used as proof.
In any case, I showed you on Z that the top players do have Terrace Farms, so even if it were true, it would be counter-indicated.
I hope you're a better driver than FoE player, or people's lives are at stake .
The point is perfectly valid, it discredits your use of top players as a milestone for "best players". Which is false information, and can not be used as proof.
It doesn't do that at all. According to another player in this forum, that's the best metric for evaluating knowledge of the game! So, which is it? Ranking Points + GB levels or not? Either way, it completely proves my point... which was that 0% defense is not optimal just because you say so. When you reach the top 3, you can tell these players they're playing "wrong". Until then, I will chalk it up to them knowing something about the game that you don't. Or are you going to sit there and say you're the "best" player in the game with the "most" knowledge?
And for the record... I never claimed the players at the top of my world to be the "best". I said they were a few "of the more successful". You twist my words to fit your facts. Do that and you lose credibility.
Well, actually, you "showed" me nothing. But that world is pretty new. It doesn't have the longevity to prove anything. Anyone can launch his/herself to the top of the ranks when things just begin. Let's see how long they stay there over the course of years playing.
These are the top 3 players in my world, the only players so far over 100 million ranking points, that have no idea how to play the game... apparently.
The #1 player in our world has well over 100 Watchfires, around 25 Ritual Flames, the Saint Basil's Cathedral at level 10, and he even has the Monastery. He also has the Tower of Babel at level 10. He doesn't have a single Terrace Farm.
The #2 player has over 75 Watchfires as well as several Ritual Flames and also has the Saint Basil's Cathedral at level 10, plus a Drummer School. He also has 8 Tribal Squares and also has not a single Terrace Farm.
The #3 player has over 150 Watchfires, at least 20 Ritual Flames, a level 8 Saint Basil's Cathedral, 2 Drummer Schools, and just 2 Terrace Farms.
There are many ways to build a thriving town. Many of the more "successful" players believe in having a defense... and in at least the top few cases of my world, a very substantial one. If having a 0% defense works for you, that's great. This is clearly not the answer for everyone and is not required to "succeed" in this game.
Great post (seriously!). If you wouldn't mind, could you message them and ask how much they get attacked/plundered (maybe even link them this thread)?
Obviously, things at the very top (I assume they're very active GvGers) are different than for HMA campers, or Iron Age progressors going up an age every couple weeks. I assume their hoods don't rotate? And these hoodies are mostly in different guilds that are rivals?
I'm not sure if this discussion is still serious about 0% defense is literally wrong for everyone, or if we've evolved to a nuanced discussion yet. I assume these players all have many palace/cherry sets?
And an aside about who's the "best". Obviously points are an easy proxy, but that mostly correlates to money/time spent. "Best" is whoever gets the most points in the least time/money/etc, but measuring that is impossible, so one needs shortcuts. Efficient layouts are likely a big clue. "success" in this game is mostly about time (or money as a shortcut), so revering someone who spends 100k as a strategic genius is just silly.
It doesn't do that at all. According to another player in this forum, that's the best metric for evaluating knowledge of the game! So, which is it? Ranking Points + GB levels or not? Either way, it completely proves my point... which was that 0% defense is not optimal just because you say so. When you reach the top 3, you can tell these players they're playing "wrong". Until then, I will chalk it up to them knowing something about the game that you don't. Or are you going to sit there and say you're the "best" player in the game with the "most" knowledge?
And for the record... I never claimed the players at the top of my world to be the "best". I said they were a few "of the more successful". You twist my words to fit your facts. Do that and you lose credibility.
Well, actually, you "showed" me nothing. But that world is pretty new. It doesn't have the longevity to prove anything. Anyone can launch his/herself to the top of the ranks when things just begin. Let's see how long they stay there over the course of years playing.
Actually, I agree with a defense. I've been doing so for a while. Read more carefully.
Toy is the #2 player, and he's been a leading player in a number of worlds. But, it's all about the diamonds, don't kid yourself. If you want to buy 30 Cherry Blossom L2 sets, someone who's earning them through the quests isn't going to have a chance.
The fact is, the monastery is not as efficient as watchfires or ritual flames. It doesn't matter who uses it, it's not as efficient. Period! If someone is using a monastery, it's a mistake at that point they are in, unless against all odds they can't get ritual flames, or watchfires. Hard to believe.
Don't tie me to something someone else has said. Can you imagine if they tied me to something you said, I'd be embarrassed. But then you obviously do credit being the top three with it, and instead use another player as an excuse.
But, the top three vary from server to server, and not all are going to do the same thing. I've already shown you that the top three in Z are more Terrace Farm friendly than Tribal Square, so you have counter-indications. Are they all right, if they're doing it differently? Well, no. And even you should be able to figure out the Terrace Farm is better than Tribal Square, assuming you can protect it. It's not really close. To get the same goods, I'd need at least 5 TS, and that allows for pop and such. That's 48 squares, and more roads. Plus, I can't make FP if I want. But, keep believing that TS is better, and stay in your HMA cave, and pretend to know everything.
But, at least one point we agree on is, defense can be useful. For me, particularly, since I like Terrace Farms. They need protection.
Looks like they all have vulnerable goodies & are in OF. I'm a little surprised at Player 1 needing all that protection for elephant gates. *shrugs* Then again, they clearly don't care to have an optimal city layout and I assume they spent money to get that many elephant sets.
Player 2 & 3 have a lot of rogue hideouts. I'd say a bit too many, unless they are a GvG fiends. I presume yes, based on those Champ retreats.
On the surface, that supports my theory that their rank points may chiefly come from GvG. GvG isn't profitable in the sense of this topic, unless we want to drill down into Guild Benefits.
Thanks for taking the time to post the screenshots.
I'd agree with the first half of that sentence... but you are correct in that they are both GvG beasts. In fact, so is the first player. And as a side note, player 2 and 3 are in the same guild.
On the surface, that supports my theory that their rank points may chiefly come from GvG. GvG isn't profitable in the sense of this topic, unless we want to drill down into Guild Benefits.
Does that negate their need for defense though? Or at the bare minimum, does it mean they would be better served by not having one? I'm not saying I have that answer for them... they clearly have determined that answer for themselves. But it would probably alter their game tremendously if they were to have a 0% defense. And I wouldn't really accuse them of being non-profit players, even if GvG is a heavy component for them. My inclusion of their towns in this thread was just as a new consideration to the argument overall.
Came across the first city to make me nope out of a retaliatory attack. HMA with lvl 10 SBC, lvl 9 Deal, 25 Ritual Flames, 1 Watch Fire, and miscellaneous special buildings that provide defensive boosts.
Go look on Z, look at the top player, and look at the massive amount of Cherry Blossom farms he has. Pillars too. SoKs. Halls of Fame, etc... You should be able to figure it out from there, although it should be pretty obvious in the first place. Look at the second player. Notice lots of SoKs? Super high age? Lots of specials including Pillars?
Yes, it's obvious that players who shoot to the top of a new world like Z have spent real-world money to do it. Do you have any evidence that the same is true of the top players in well-established worlds?
Yes, it's obvious that players who shoot to the top of a new world like Z have spent real-world money to do it. Do you have any evidence that the same is true of the top players in well-established worlds?
Top player in A2 has like 6M points, second place who also spend tons of diamonds has 1M. To recoup that gap from a non-paying player would require the parlay of paying player having an IQ of 1 and non-paying player simply hacking the INNO code and cheating to catch up.
@icarusethan couldn't find the post I was going to reply to of yours, but regardless. Just to illustrate the uselessness of ranking points & GB's as a way to determine if someone is "good" at this game (obviously good in this game is subjective, more likely someone just has a different set of goals, so what may be bad for you could be a goal for them).
HMA player - 450,000 ranking points and a level 16 Arc. Looks like they might have an idea what they're doing based off those metrics. Ok, well lets take a look at their city.
So much wasted space, but hey they've got an Inno to save space, but then they just waste it. Going with a not very good player rating on this one after looking at the city. Granted they could be in the middle of a rearrange, but there aren't any buildings being built so not likely.
@icarusethan couldn't find the post I was going to reply to of yours, but regardless. Just to illustrate the uselessness of ranking points & GB's as a way to determine if someone is "good" at this game (obviously good in this game is subjective, more likely someone just has a different set of goals, so what may be bad for you could be a goal for them).
HMA player - 450,000 ranking points and a level 16 Arc. Looks like they might have an idea what they're doing based off those metrics. Ok, well lets take a look at their city.
Okay, so from here I'm supposed to find some high-rank players that have good city designs and keep this debate going? No. Low-rank players normally not doing things right, it's quite obvious. And if you pick a different way to play and turn into a low-rank player, its all on you. But if you claim you have a better game knowledge and try to teach other new players how to build their cities or argue with other experienced players, sorry, you are not qualified
Okay, so from here I'm supposed to find some high-rank players that have good city designs and keep this debate going? No. Low-rank players normally not doing things right, it's quite obvious. And if you pick a different way to play and turn into a low-rank player, its all on you. But if you claim you have a better game knowledge and try to teach other new players how to build their cities or argue with other experienced players, sorry, you are not qualified
That isn't what you had originally stated, just refuting your original claim that ranking points & GB's are an accurate indicator of how well a player plays the game.
That isn't what you had originally stated, just refuting your original claim that ranking points & GB's are an accurate indicator of how well a player plays the game.
.