2000 Aborted quest limit per day

[RazorbackPirate]

Are you referring to specific player written Guide threads or the general concept of farming RQs?

The former, but it's a bit splitting hairs. Anything players have done to maximize RQs has been done using something Inno provided them and they did so entirely within the rules.

What imbalance? What things need to be "balanced"? InnoGames is opaque. Oz has spoken.

Whatever imbalance Inno decides there is that needs rebalancing. Agreed, agreed.

 

[BruteForceAttack]

What imbalance? What things need to be "balanced"? InnoGames is opaque. Oz has spoken.


When I observe the communication from InnoGames, "clear" is a word furthest from my mind. What do they think an "exploit" is? I found four definitions from large computer companies.

From Malwarebytes:

View attachment 18649

From Cisco:

View attachment 18650

From Avast:

View attachment 18652

From UpGuard:

View attachment 18653

What an interesting choice of word that is for InnoGames to use about its player base! Does this reflect how they think of us? When we play their game within the rules that have existed for years, some of that activity is to be now regarded as "malicious" or "illicit" or "unauthorized"??

Meanwhile, they are more than happy to keep us addicted to feed the demands of their stock holders. Who is "exploiting" whom?

Context
Ask your friend google "Video game exploit"

 

[Agent327]

No one by that name shows up in any databases, so they either deleted their worlds before the databases were last updated, or else they created a new (probably burner) game account just to post here.

Romanian database.

 

[lemur]

Ask your friend google ...

If you have information or an argument that you think counters what I wrote, then please show us.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

If you have information or an argument that you think counters what I wrote, then please show us.

This is a rare case that Wikipedia does a good job summarizing the issue at hand. Thanks @BruteForceAttack.

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating;[citation needed] however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]

I'm not trying to justify the decision, but splitting hairs on a definition seems pointless.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

What do they think an "exploit" is? I found four definitions from large computer companies.

As @BruteForceAttack points out, context is everything. "Exploit" has different connotations in different settings. You purposely chose several definitions that fit only one certain application of the word. An application that refers to attacks on a program or piece of software. In the case of RQ looping, the definition of video game exploit that refers to a game mechanic that is working as designed, but not as intended is more the connotation of the word used by Inno. And, as @RazorbackPirate pointed out, it is likely that the developers did not not realize the extent that RQ looping had gotten to until the release of the SAAB RQs affected the servers themselves.

 

[Agent327]

When I observe the communication from InnoGames, "clear" is a word furthest from my mind. What do they think an "exploit" is? I found four definitions from large computer companies.

Could it be that it is furthest from your mind because you are trying to figure out what an exploit is by searching for it on large computer companies? If I look at what they say and would not know what it was, I would start looking for what is meant when they talk about game exploits . If you are sick and suspect you have a virus, you go ask a doctor. Not Malwarebytes, Cisco, Avast, or Upguard. Even if they know what a virus is.

 

[Jonasd79]

Well, if something is changed, we have to adapt. We may not always agree about it, but we can figure something else out.

As a child, there was a friend who was a bad loser and when we played a game at his house, he continued to change the rules. It’s not a fun, nor unique, experience. In essence, adapting something that has existed in the game for ~8 years and players have developed a strategy behind, is not a good thing that anyone should support. Because after all, the next time they change the rules, it may have a heavy impact on you.

 

[lemur]

Could it be that it is furthest from your mind because you are trying to figure out what an exploit is by searching for it on large computer companies?

Gosh ... @BruteForceAttack told me that Google is my friend. Perhaps some Google searches are more equal than others. Could it be that "looking for what is meant" is a fool's errand — because InnoGames and their designated representatives are so poor at clear communication?

Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating ...

Yes, that matches the definitions I provided — which all characterized exploits as "malicious," "illicit" or "unauthorized." As I wrote earlier, the language chosen by InnoGames seems to betray how they regard their player base. Perhaps in their view, "cheaters" don't deserve notice or clear explanation.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

The one I was referring to joined at 7 this morning. No joke.

Ok. When they posted they created the account this morning I thought they meant the forum one as joining the game to make a comment seemed unlikely. Guess I was wrong.

 

[GaKOAK]

A perfect example of an exploit is shown in the Netflix special "High Score".

In the early days of console gaming one of the most popular was Sonic the Hedgehog, some of you might remember it. There were competitions held all over the country looking for the best players. The winners figured out that to win they didn't really need to play through the game, but instead figured out how to do a quick speed run on the opening level, kill off the character in the right place and restart the level to gain coins as quickly as possible.

Were they really the 'best' players? They were playing the game as designed, but were using an exploit to maximize their score in a way that didn't exactly follow the intentions of the game designers.

Seems to me an obvious parallel to what is happening here.

Personally I don't have a problem with the limit, I think it is a much needed change that should have happened long ago.

 

[Coach Zuck]

I just want to remind everyone, a few days ago the mods were asking for feedback on what kind of increase to the abort limit, or alteration to the limit mechanic, we might be less upset with

That seemed like a constructive conversation to have rather than whatever this has regressed in to, if that conversation is still on the table, maybe the feedback from it will be forwarded upwards

my request is still for it to be a rolling 24 hour limit rather than one that is reset daily at midnight...
I've had to hold off on several locks in the past couple of days, until midnight (in fear I might not reach my limit the next day + wanting to front load it with the extra locks available in the time before reset)

as I mentioned in that post, this can be done without any database overhead by using a "token bucket" (I'm just mentioning this because it is a very standard and easy to implement method for such limits, and many developers tend to instead assume they would need to hold a list of all past limited actions + query against it, which I assume would be too slow ... Using a token bucket only requires knowing the last time a "token" (abort) was received, and the current number of tokens (aborts) available... Then every time a token is requested, you look at how long its been since one was last requested, add N tokens where N is ((seconds since last request) / (seconds in a day / limit per day)), reset the last request time, cap tokens to the limit per day, then if a token is available, deduct one and return true, otherwise return false.

 

[Emberguard]

I just want to remind everyone, a few days ago the mods were asking for feedback on what kind of increase to the abort limit, or alteration to the limit mechanic, we might be less upset with

That seemed like a constructive conversation to have rather than whatever this has regressed in to,

I agree, if there’s any other ideas or feedback that would be constructive

my request is still for it to be a rolling 24 hour limit rather than one that is reset daily at midnight...
I've had to hold off on several locks in the past couple of days, until midnight (in fear I might not reach my limit the next day + wanting to front load it with the extra locks available in the time before reset)

Interesting idea

as I mentioned in that post, this can be done without any database overhead by using a "token bucket" (I'm just mentioning this because it is a very standard and easy to implement method for such limits, and many developers tend to instead assume they would need to hold a list of all past limited actions + query against it, which I assume would be too slow ... Using a token bucket only requires knowing the last time a "token" (abort) was received, and the current number of tokens (aborts) available... Then every time a token is requested, you look at how long its been since one was last requested, add N tokens where N is ((seconds since last request) / (seconds in a day / limit per day)), reset the last request time, cap tokens to the limit per day, then if a token is available, deduct one and return true, otherwise return false.

Thankyou for pointing that out

 

[r21r]

I agree, if there’s any other ideas or feedback that would be constructive

my personal oppinion as player

Was CF causing unbalance ? Yes it was
Was CF the only thing that caused unbalance ? No it wasn't
Is there balance in the game after the limit ? No there isn't

Can someone produce unlimited Goods within 24h after the abort limit ? Yes he can
Can someone produce 2.000 Forge Points within 24h with 0 tile invested after the abort limit ? Yes he can
Can someone produce unlimited Coins and Supplies within 24h after the abort limit ? I don't know
Can someone produce unlimited Medals within 24h after the abort limit ? I don't know
Can someone produce unlimited Blueprints within 24h after the abort limit ? Yes he can
Can someone produce unlimited Diamonds within 24h after the abort limit ? Yes he can

my feelings as player

frustrated at the moment

ideas on balancing the RQ's

i don't know if i have the experience to suggest effective solutions other than monitoring and interacting directly with suspicious cases
maybe a cheap bot can be stopped with a captcha, an expensive one, won't impo.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

Gosh ... @BruteForceAttack told me that Google is my friend. Perhaps some Google searches are more equal than others. Could it be that "looking for what is meant" is a fool's errand — because InnoGames and their designated representatives are so poor at clear communication?


Yes, that matches the definitions I provided — which all characterized exploits as "malicious," "illicit" or "unauthorized." As I wrote earlier, the language chosen by InnoGames seems to betray how they regard their player base. Perhaps in their view, "cheaters" don't deserve notice or clear explanation.

Nice how you ignore everything else written rather than address it. But the rest doesn't support your position, does it?

I'm not happy about the change either, but what your doing serves no purpose. You think Inno is going to change their mind because you found a definition? There is nothing wrong with the word exploit being used. According to the definition I supplied, Exploit is an apt term.

More context, less feels and hyperbole.

 

[Sheriff Of Rottingham]

Can someone produce unlimited Goods within 24h after the abort limit ? Yes he can
Can someone produce 2.000 Forge Points within 24h with 0 tile invested after the abort limit ? Yes he can
Can someone produce unlimited Coins and Supplies within 24h after the abort limit ? I don't know
Can someone produce unlimited Medals within 24h after the abort limit ? I don't know
Can someone produce unlimited Blueprints within 24h after the abort limit ? Yes he can
Can someone produce unlimited Diamonds within 24h after the abort limit ? Yes he can

um...is this done by violating the TOS? If not, how do you get unlimited goods and diamonds?

 

[Kamek]

ideas on balancing the RQ's

i don't know if i have the experience to suggest effective solutions other than monitoring and interacting directly with suspicious cases
maybe a cheap bot can be stopped with a captcha, an expensive one, won't impo.

Three ideas come to mind to rebalance the RQs, up the cost of the UBQs, add attrition to the fight RQs in SAAB/SAV and up the amount of FPs needed for the spend quests.

As for the bots, it has been mentioned before, altering the sequence of RQs from time to time would screw up the clickers but that won't stop anyone using image recognition. I think the only way to stop that would be a hard limit like we have now, captcha like you mentioned or modifying RQs which would essentially enforce passive limits on the quests.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

Three ideas come to mind to rebalance the RQs, up the cost of the UBQs, add attrition to the fight RQs in SAAB/SAV and up the amount of FPs needed for the spend quests.

As for the bots, it has been mentioned before, altering the sequence of RQs from time to time would screw up the clickers but that won't stop anyone using image recognition. I think the only way to stop that would be a hard limit like we have now, captcha like you mentioned or modifying RQs which would essentially enforce passive limits on the quests.

But upping the cost of the RQs means that many more players won't be able to accomplish those quests on a regular basis (that only do a few or at least less than the number that you get to by doing over 2,000 aborts) so how is that a better solution? It means many more less advanced players lose out on being able to gain some resources from the RQs. Same problem with upping the cost. Sure many of the longer term players make a bunch of everything but what about all of the cities that don't generate that much regularly? Those 2 ideas aren't as easy a fix as you think it is really.

 

[lemur]

Nice how you ignore everything else written rather than address it. But the rest doesn't support your position, does it?

Most of the citation neither supports nor refutes what I wrote earlier. I chose not to reply to the rest of the Wikipedia definition because it's not as important as this:

"Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating."​

There is nothing wrong with the word exploit being used.

I will address my remarks to the wider audience.

To the best of my knowledge, recurring quests have been a part of Forge of Empires ever since the game began nine years ago. They have been called "recurring" because players have been permitted to complete them endlessly — without limit. Many did thousands of recurring quests within the rules that InnoGames created.

Then in the spring of 2016, the game developers introduced the Arc. Given InnoGames' financial position at that time (shortly before a Swedish corporation began to buy large amounts of their stock), it seems quite plausible that the Arc was an attempt to pump some new enthusiasm and new revenue into their business.

But now the chickens have come home to roost, because players have used the Arc boost to leverage very high quest reward boosts from Château Frontenac. InnoGames decided that it didn't like what it had created, and they have suddenly placed a limit upon a key feature that was limitless for nine years. It seems that InnoGames has learned little from their former recklessness, because the abort limit is similarly reckless, although not to the same degree.

InnoGames does not admit that the Arc may have been huge mistake. Instead, the company is blaming the players — using a term that is synonymous with cheating, malicious, illicit or unauthorized to describe a playing style that was completely within the rules. That is why the word "exploit" is so important.

I for one will not "adapt" to such disrespect, as has been argued by company sympathizers. For example:

One thing I have learned and hopefully you will is people, you have to learn to adapt to almost constant changes in life.

I think it's important to point out that change is not an unquestioned good, no matter how our modern world tries to indoctrinate us with that belief. Change must have compelling reasons. In my view, those who support nerfing the Château have not made a convincing case.

I don't expect InnoGames to pay heed to what I write. I don't argue with authoritarian corporations because I expect to win. I oppose them because they are authoritarian.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

They own the game thus they get to decide the rules. Just because I let the neighbors pick the lemons from my tree doesn't mean I can't change my mind at some point. This is the way it works because this isn't a game ruled by committee. Inno isn't being authoritarian because that implies that we are all here unwillingly or somehow that we can't go elsewhere. While I don't disagree with your basic reason to be upset over this decision, if you think for a moment that any game or business is bound by the past no matter what then you simply lack a fundamental understanding of how things work.