Charity

[DeletedUser]

when women and men are doing the exact same job, they tend to be paid equally.

This is patently untrue in most cases. And when it is true, you can be sure that a labor union (or the possibility of one organizing) is involved. Except, of course, for the minimum wage jobs we've been discussing. By the way, all those statistics you quoted undoubtedly only counted true minimum wage jobs. Meaning that employers who pay a pittance more than minimum wage aren't included. That fact negates the relevance of most of those stats.

 

[Graviton]

This is patently untrue unless in most cases.

I agree with this sentence: the data is patently untrue, except in most cases, when it is true.

And when it is true, you can be sure that a labor union (or the possibility of one organizing) is involved. Except, of course, for the minimum wage jobs we've been discussing.

So when it's not true, it's not relevant to our discussion. In other words, you agree with me? And when did we start talking about labor unions? What's that got to do with anything we've mentioned?

By the way, all those statistics you quoted undoubtedly only counted true minimum wage jobs.

Which government department tracks fake minimum wage jobs?

Meaning that employers who pay a pittance more than minimum wage aren't included. That fact negates the relevance of most of those stats.

So the data that doesn't support your position is irrelevant. Good to know...I guess?

No, the data for jobs that pay minimum wage or less doesn't include jobs that pay more than minimum wage. Are we to presume that's somehow nefarious?

You've presented no rebuttal of the facts, you've simply offered (pretty weak) excuses to dismiss them without consideration.

 

[DeletedUser36572]

Because that’s so easy for people with families who haven’t been afforded the opportunities given to the majority...”should be” and “are” are different scenarios. You’re right, though. It should be like this, but in reality, it isn’t.

In today’s reality, the worse off you are, the more opportunities there are available. I know the sheep fail to understand this because they are still using the century old political playbook, while their lack in understanding does its best to keep a portion of society in a cycle of systemic failure.

If you have a family and are stupid enough to think a minimum wage job is going to be enough to support yourself and your family ... Well, there isn’t anywhere you could buy a bus ticket to, that could fix the real life issues you are incapable of dealing with in the first place.

The reality is ... A minimum wage job is the minimum, and not a job anyone with a family should ever consider. There are ways to overcome issues, and the minimum is never the correct answer.

If you want someone to get a fair wage for a good job ... Pick them up in your car, drive them to classes where they will receive the training necessary, and help them study and pass the certification exams.

You can quit acting like you are a caring and compassionate person, just because you want to kick the can down the road when it is actually time to do something, send the taxpayer or corporations the bill for your screwed up reality that you have no intent on changing for the better.

Start investing in the people ... Not the Government ... And certainly not any system that promotes the idea the minimum should be sustainable for anyone.

 

[DeletedUser36572]

... You have the world wrapped up in a nice little "BlackSand can take care of herself, so screw everyone else" viewpoint. I don't even know why you're a part of a discussion of charity when you have absolutely none in your heart. ...

If by “charitable” you mean ... Having the desire to figure out how We can better spend someone else’s money and resources, so You can feel better about yourself and and your inadequacies ... Then I am not charitable.

If by “charitable” you mean ... Doing everything I can do, where I am, with my money and resources, without the desire to promote your inadequate, irresponsible and fundamentally flawed designs for systemic failure ... Then I could be considered charitable.

You are correct though ... My desires, effort, and community don’t need your vote, acceptance, contributions, or lack thereof, to thrive and flourish. It’s not the silly suggestion that “you don’t know me” ... It the forthright reality that you knowing me is in no way a requirement for what needs to be accomplished where I am.

You are either on the team, or we aren’t missing you.

 

[time4coffee]

A one time donation to charity is just that one time. And deductible too. Maybe he or Amazon actually pay taxes.

His money would be spent paying liveable wages to his workers and improving working conditions. Right now the conditions are near slave labor to keep "production" up. Pay benefits to all workers, not just salaried workers because all too often hourly workers are never given more than 30-35 hours a week to avoid benefits.

As far as saying a minimum wage job is something no one with a family should consider, often there is no other choice. If given the choice between no job and minimum wage, most people will accept the job they can get. And these days it's not just the unskilled or uneducated. I can't count the number of college grads who are working minimum wage or just above it because that is all that is available.

 

[DeletedUser36572]

As far as saying a minimum wage job is something no one with a family should consider, often there is no other choice. If given the choice between no job and minimum wage, most people will accept the job they can get. And these days it's not just the unskilled or uneducated. I can't count the number of college grads who are working minimum wage or just above it because that is all that is available.

There are always alternative choices, albeit those choices are going to come from looking somewhere the person has yet to look, and by not being satisfied with whatever someone is going to place in front of them or low hanging fruit.

I agree that there are too many college grads working minimum wage jobs, but as a result of pursuing options that were insufficient in providing them with what was necessary to succeed. Going to college doesn’t guarantee a person the job they want, because college doesn’t necessarily provide a person with what they need, nor the work ethic necessary to command their career.

Likewise ... I cannot count the number of career professionals, without a college degree making more than 150k a year, providing for a family and doing just fine. They were smart enough to pursue a career where they get paid what they want.

A tugboat crew hand has no idea that 6 years later he will be an underwater robotics specialist on an oil rig making 235k a year, when he just applies himself, networks his connections, acquires the necessary training ... And doesn’t listen to a bunch of garbage about what he cannot do and what isn’t available.

There is definitely a difference in outcomes when a person is satisfied with less waiting for someone to save them, or provide for them, versus doing what is necessary to acquire the knowledge actually required to pursue something worthwhile. It’s there, it’s available, but signing up for a crappy job and waiting for the world to feel sorry for you and rescue your butt from a severe lack of ambition just won’t cut it in the long-term.

 

[Graviton]

As far as saying a minimum wage job is something no one with a family should consider, often there is no other choice. If given the choice between no job and minimum wage, most people will accept the job they can get.

Yes but in those cases earning minimum wage should be very temporary. It's not easy to acquire a new skill or improve existing ones when you have other mouths to feed, but lots of people are doing it every day. Difficult does not equal impossible.

I actually looked for stats on the average length of time a person is in a minimum wage job because I don't think anybody's making a career out of it. I couldn't find the stats quickly, and then I ran out of interest. But common sense a bit of extrapolation tell us that if the vast majority of MW earners are 25 or younger, single, and already from middle class families, these are entry-level jobs and they aren't working them for long.

And these days it's not just the unskilled or uneducated. I can't count the number of college grads who are working minimum wage or just above it because that is all that is available.

Then they failed themselves by getting a useless degree, or living in a place with no opportunity. It's on them to remedy that situation, it's not like it just fell in their laps. They don't need anybody to ride to their rescue, they need to make better decisions.

 

[Lannister the Rich]

I too like to think about what life could be like if companies were more compassionate to their employees...what you both speak of are fantasies for millions of people. You’re privileged and can’t/won’t empathize, I get it. Don’t act like you do, though. You have no idea what it’s like for those people, and you’re instead passing judgement on them for not “trying hard enough”. Judging me for saying that the richest man in the world could afford to put a bit more into charities, that I covet his money for some reason like I want it instead of giving it to those that really need it...because not a soul on this entire planet needs that much money ever. Somehow I came out being the selfish one...

Whatever, no compassion for the poor, that’s a great way to live. Keep doing you, I guess. But don’t tell me what compassion and charity are when you clearly have no idea yourself.

 

[Graviton]

I too like to think about what life could be like if companies were more compassionate to their employees...what you both speak of are fantasies for millions of people. You’re privileged and can’t/won’t empathize, I get it.

No, you don't get it, else you wouldn't attempt to dismiss our arguments as being motivated by a lack of empathy. Empathy has nothing to do with it, that's just a way to make one's self feel better, if not morally superior, to those who disagree.

You have no idea what it’s like for those people ...

Utter nonsense. You have no idea what I have an idea of. You simply can't deal with disagreement, and my guess is you believe what you believe because it makes you feel better, not because you've reasoned it out, so you think the only possible way anybody can disagree with you is because they're bad people. You have no clue how to present an argument nor how to debate a point, so you go right for character assassination and dismissal. You are exactly what is wrong with both "sides" of the political aisle: all emotion and no reason.

 

[Lannister the Rich]

So, basically exactly what you just did? You’re no better than I am. The only thing you’ve brought to this argument is “facts” that are backed up by nothing. No science and no real data, just some website you probably found. You bring no reason and little emotion to the table.

You can prove me wrong if you’d like, but based off of your posts: [redacted]. You seem like a reasonable person who just doesn’t have his facts straight. Your argument for minimum wage is accomplished by ignoring the fact that people getting paid $7.50 don’t count in your percentages. You say the only people who work those jobs are entry level, no skilled people, when in reality there are hundreds of thousands of people in those low paying jobs because they are actually unable to get a better job....Disabled people, pregnant or recently new mothers, folks with lots of pre-existing conditions, bad credit, or other “undesirables” that companies don’t want to hire because they hurt their bottom line...if you think any of those things won’t keep someone from being hired, I’ve got news for you...

I’m not the one speaking strictly to emotion and without facts. Your emotion is anger (I don’t know why, perhaps because you don’t want to believe you are wrong) and your facts are not founded in reality. The world, especially the US, isn’t as great as you think it is. There’s lots of people living in squalor because they cannot get out of it, not because they’re too lazy to find a better way. You need to see that.

 

[DeletedUser36572]

So, basically exactly what you just did? You’re no better than I am. The only thing you’ve brought to this argument is “facts” that are backed up by nothing. No science and no real data, just some website you probably found. You bring no reason and little emotion to the table.

You can prove me wrong if you’d like, but based off of your posts: yes, I would say it’s not unlikely you’re a bad person. I don’t want to think that of you, because you seem like a reasonable person who just doesn’t have his facts straight. Your argument for minimum wage is accomplished by ignoring the fact that people getting paid $7.50 don’t count in your percentages. You say the only people who work those jobs are entry level, no skilled people, when in reality there are hundreds of thousands of people in those low paying jobs because they are actually unable to get a better job....Disabled people, pregnant or recently new mothers, folks with lots of pre-existing conditions, bad credit, or other “undesirables” that companies don’t want to hire because they hurt their bottom line...if you think any of those things won’t keep someone from being hired, I’ve got news for you...

I’m not the one speaking strictly to emotion and without facts. Your emotion is anger (I don’t know why, perhaps because you don’t want to believe you are wrong) and your facts are not founded in reality. The world, especially the US, isn’t as great as you think it is. There’s lots of people living in squalor because they cannot get out of it, not because they’re too lazy to find a better way. You need to see that.

It’s not about being better than someone else.
It’s about being better than yourself.

Continuous improvement is a measure against what was and the progress you have made. Sustainability is a requirement, not an option.

If a person can understand those very basic concepts, and pursue them both with intentional effort ... Well, you may considered them privileged, but in reality it doesn’t matter what you think about them, because they don’t require excuses.

 

[DeletedUser36572]

...

Whatever, no compassion for the poor, that’s a great way to live. Keep doing you, I guess. But don’t tell me what compassion and charity are when you clearly have no idea yourself.

A full and complete understanding of the Origin of Debt (who owes who what and the authority the debt is based in), does not mean anyone lacks compassion.

Making up imaginary Origins of Debt, requiring other people to assume the debt , is likewise not caring nor compassionate ... It’s false altruism.

Simply put, I don’t have to agree with your designs steeped in systemic failure in order to be caring or compassionate. I simply prefer to care for others without some ridiculous idea that anyone else needs to do anything for me to be compassionate.

I don’t have to put you in debt to someone else, so I feel better about myself.

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[Lannister the Rich]

It’s not about being better than someone else.
It’s about being better than yourself.

Continuous improvement is a measure against what was and the progress you have made. Sustainability is a requirement, not an option.

If a person can understand those very basic concepts, and pursue them both with intentional effort ... Well, you may considered them privileged, but in reality it doesn’t matter what you think about them, because they don’t require excuses.

That’s clearly not what I meant by privileged, but if that makes you feel better about yourself that you “know more and tried harder”, then go ahead, I can’t stop you.

A full and complete understanding of the Origin of Debt (who owes who what and the authority the debt is based in), does not mean anyone lacks compassion.

Making up imaginary Origins of Debt, requiring other people to assume the debt , is likewise not caring nor compassionate ... It’s false altruism.

Simply put, I don’t have to agree with your designs steeped in systemic failure in order to be caring or compassionate. I simply prefer to care for others without some ridiculous idea that anyone else needs to do anything for me to be compassionate.

I don’t have to put you in debt to someone else, so I feel better about myself.

.

This has nothing to do with who owes what. Honestly, where are you in this argument? You talk about systemic failure and neglect admitting that it’s the companies responsible for systemic choosing who fails. This failure comes from prejudice. Like it or not, it’s real, it keeps people from advancing, and it’s rampant. It’s not something in the minority, it is very common, especially in the job markets where the people in the minority that I just mentioned in the last post are able to seek jobs. Adding to that list: ex-convicts, geriatrics, “thuggish looking people” (ranging from anyone with tattoos to black people with natural hair, e.g. dreads)

When I say you lack compassion, I’m saying it because you’re refusing to acknowledge that these minority groups are held in any way of advancing except by their own means: “it’s their own fault”. Prejudice is real, and you not being part of those classes of people make you privileged.

None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, which I’ll remind everyone is that the richest man in the world funneled an amount of money that he makes in less than an hour into his own charity, which will net him a profit in the end, for the sake of advancing his brand. Is it a lot of money? Yes. Will it help lots of people? Yes. Could he have donated money 5x that and not even have noticed? Yes. Could a lot more people have been helped? Yes.

Does he owe it to anyone? Well, let’s see. His company’s presence in Seattle skyrocketed the number of homeless people and shut down countless businesses due to the increase in cost of living. His company uses American roads and rails that taxpayers paid for, not him. His workers have to be educated, which is supported by taxpayers, again something he doesn’t do. I could go on, but I’ll leave it at “maybe not, but it sure wouldn’t hurt”. The history of the world has looked favorably on and civilizations definitely haven’t fallen due to substantially large and ever increasing gaps in classes of people...oh wait...

 

[DeletedUser36572]

That’s clearly not what I meant by privileged, but if that makes you feel better about yourself that you “know more and tried harder”, then go ahead, I can’t stop you.

This has nothing to do with who owes what. Honestly, where are you in this argument? You talk about systemic failure and neglect admitting that it’s the companies responsible for systemic choosing who fails. This failure comes from prejudice. Like it or not, it’s real, it keeps people from advancing, and it’s rampant. It’s not something in the minority, it is very common, especially in the job markets where the people in the minority that I just mentioned in the last post are able to seek jobs. Adding to that list: ex-convicts, geriatrics, “thuggish looking people” (ranging from anyone with tattoos to black people with natural hair, e.g. dreads)

When I say you lack compassion, I’m saying it because you’re refusing to acknowledge that these minority groups are held in any way of advancing except by their own means: “it’s their own fault”. Prejudice is real, and you not being part of those classes of people make you privileged.

None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, which I’ll remind everyone is that the richest man in the world funneled an amount of money that he makes in less than an hour into his own charity, which will net him a profit in the end, for the sake of advancing his brand. Is it a lot of money? Yes. Will it help lots of people? Yes. Could he have donated money 5x that and not even have noticed? Yes. Could a lot more people have been helped? Yes.

Does he owe it to anyone? Well, let’s see. His company’s presence in Seattle skyrocketed the number of homeless people and shut down countless businesses due to the increase in cost of living. His company uses American roads and rails that taxpayers paid for, not him. His workers have to be educated, which is supported by taxpayers, again something he doesn’t do. I could go on, but I’ll leave it at “maybe not, but it sure wouldn’t hurt”. The history of the world has looked favorably on and civilizations definitely haven’t fallen due to substantially large and ever increasing gaps in classes of people...oh wait...

It has everything to do with the topic.
I mentioned in the beginning that Bezos would be charitable and altruistic donating his own money.

What you obviously fail to understand, is that what Bezos does, and how you view it has nothing to do with whether or not you are charitable, caring compassionate.

A business owner doesn’t owe an unskilled, pregnant mother of four a job, much less one that pays what you think it should. They owe their employee for the work that employee does and the value that employee adds to the business.

If the employer, gives them a job, that’s the employer’s compassion. If the employer pays them extra for daycare, that’s the employer’s cost and the employer’s caring. If the employer provides the employee with decent healthcare options, then that is the employer’s caring and compassion. If the employer holds their position while time is necessary for appointments and the birth, that’s the employer’s cost and the employer’s caring and compassion.

If your idea of being caring and compassionate is based in what you can make the employer do under threat of law, fines and imprisonment ... Then you are nothing more than a tyrannical burden, that adds nothing of value to the equation and are delusional about your actual significance.

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[RazorbackPirate]

That’s clearly not what I meant by privileged, but if that makes you feel better about yourself that you “know more and tried harder”, then go ahead, I can’t stop you.

This has nothing to do with who owes what. Honestly, where are you in this argument? You talk about systemic failure and neglect admitting that it’s the companies responsible for systemic choosing who fails. This failure comes from prejudice. Like it or not, it’s real, it keeps people from advancing, and it’s rampant. It’s not something in the minority, it is very common, especially in the job markets where the people in the minority that I just mentioned in the last post are able to seek jobs. Adding to that list: ex-convicts, geriatrics, “thuggish looking people” (ranging from anyone with tattoos to black people with natural hair, e.g. dreads)

When I say you lack compassion, I’m saying it because you’re refusing to acknowledge that these minority groups are held in any way of advancing except by their own means: “it’s their own fault”. Prejudice is real, and you not being part of those classes of people make you privileged.

Totally racist screed. Everyone in the minority who hasn't succeeded is a victim of the majority, i.e. white man. Total bovine excrement. More useless virtue signaling from the woke, self loathing, white kid. Hope it at least gets you laid in your circle, but I doubt it. It's merely the cost of entry into the outrage crowd.

None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, which I’ll remind everyone is that the richest man in the world funneled an amount of money that he makes in less than an hour into his own charity, which will net him a profit in the end, for the sake of advancing his brand. Is it a lot of money? Yes. Will it help lots of people? Yes. Could he have donated money 5x that and not even have noticed? Yes. Could a lot more people have been helped? Yes.

Says the covetous white kid who doesn't do squat himself, but ... compassion. Something you seem to have a twisted definition of. Compassion is not what you can force or guilt another into doing with their stuff. What are you doing with your stuff? What charitable donations are you giving to? What % of your income do you give away? How many people do you employ? How many families' livelihood are dependent on the success of your brand?

Does he owe it to anyone? Well, let’s see. His company’s presence in Seattle skyrocketed the number of homeless people and shut down countless businesses due to the increase in cost of living. His company uses American roads and rails that taxpayers paid for, not him. His workers have to be educated, which is supported by taxpayers, again something he doesn’t do. I could go on, but I’ll leave it at “maybe not, but it sure wouldn’t hurt”. The history of the world has looked favorably on and civilizations definitely haven’t fallen due to substantially large and ever increasing gaps in classes of people...oh wait...

Completely economically illiterate. Why aren't all these oppressed people getting the good paying jobs at Amazon, or Google, or Microsoft, or Apple, or any other company? Putting people to work and paying them well does not cause homelessness. You know what causes cost of living increases? Raising the minimum wage. Raising the minimum wage also causes higher unemployment, higher unemployment causes homelessness. That's all before we consider the long term effects of a fiat currency issued by the Federal Reserve. Guess they don't add facts to the kool-aid, do they?

 

[DeletedUser36572]

Raising the minimum wage is how they choose to define a forced overall wage increase.

You cannot increase a bottom line employee’s wage without it having an affect on all wages. If a fry cook is making $7.50 ph and goes to $15.00 ph, then the crew leader making $15.00 ph isn’t going to keep working at that wage, with the added responsibility their position requires.

So to say that raising the minimum wage is a means to help the poor, is a thorough indication the person saying it has no actual concept of how wages are determined, who would actually benefit from the increase, nor what kind of burden they are requiring on the business.

A rising tide raises all boats ... But only an idiot thinks that means it puts anyone in a better boat.

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[Lannister the Rich]

Totally racist screed. Everyone in the minority who hasn't succeeded is a victim of the majority, i.e. white man. Total bovine excrement. More useless virtue signaling from the woke, self loathing, white kid. Hope it at least gets you laid in your circle, but I doubt it. It's merely the cost of entry into the outrage crowd.

I didn’t mention race, that was you just now. Look at the list. You inferred race. I wonder why.

Says the covetous white kid who doesn't do squat himself, but ... compassion. Something you seem to have a twisted definition of. Compassion is not what you can force or guilt another into doing with their stuff. What are you doing with your stuff? What charitable donations are you giving to? What % of your income do you give away? How many people do you employ? How many families' livelihood are dependent on the success of your brand?

”You don’t get a voice unless you’ve donated more money than him! I’m going to act like I care about what % you pay, then when you say the % is more, I’m going to act like the % doesn’t matter only the $” That’s you. That’s what you sound like.

Completely economically illiterate. Why aren't all these oppressed people getting the good paying jobs at Amazon, or Google, or Microsoft, or Apple, or any other company? Putting people to work and paying them well does not cause homelessness. You know what causes cost of living increases? Raising the minimum wage. Raising the minimum wage also causes higher unemployment, higher unemployment causes homelessness. That's all before we consider the long term effects of a fiat currency issued by the Federal Reserve. Guess they don't add facts to the kool-aid, do they?

You:”Good paying jobs stimulate the economy and don’t do anything negative to the cost of living.” Also you:”Paying people more who make minimum wage causes an increase in homelessness.” Pick one.

 

[DeletedUser]

You cannot increase a bottom line employee’s wage without it having an affect on all wages. If a fry cook is making $7.50 ph and goes to $15.00 ph, then the crew leader making $15.00 ph isn’t going to keep working at that wage, with the added responsibility their position requires.

This is why you are showing yourself to be completely out of touch with reality on this subject. The same companies that are diametrically opposed to any increase in wages (minimum or not) are the same ones paying their (non-productive) CEOs hundreds of millions of dollars, with Golden Parachutes to boot. It's absolutely ridiculous to try to pit one working class person/group against another while ignoring the incredible growth in disparity between working class wages/benefits and upper management wages/benefits.

 

[DeletedUser36572]

This is why you are showing yourself to be completely out of touch with reality on this subject. The same companies that are diametrically opposed to any increase in wages (minimum or not) are the same ones paying their (non-productive) CEOs hundreds of millions of dollars, with Golden Parachutes to boot. It's absolutely ridiculous to try to pit one working class person/group against another while ignoring the incredible growth in disparity between working class wages/benefits and upper management wages/benefits.

Yeah ... The reality must be that the tide is going to turn your rowboat into a yatch. Tell me more of what I don’t understand unicorn hunter ...

Edit:
Let it be known I never denied there is a disparity between the rich and the working class. I am just wise enough to know you cannot punish the rich into compliance with your silly delusions.

The rich have what your cockamamie desires desperately need to succeed ... Capital investment. The rich understand how to invest in things and achieve their desires. And the only thing you really don’t understand, is that the rich don’t need you.

Someone, somewhere will always be eager to receive their investment and provide a return they are looking for ... But don’t feel bad, the Romans didn’t figure that out until it was too late either.

.

 

[Lannister the Rich]

Yeah ... The reality must be that the tide is going to turn your rowboat into a yatch. Tell me more of what I don’t understand unicorn hunter ...

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It’s a bad analogy. The reality is the water is already really deep, and some have massive yachts that they are keeping for themselves while the majority have rowboats that are filling with water. The analogy would be more in line with breaking down the yachts to have medium boats for everyone, not “raising the tide to raise all boats”. Anyone with a bit of knowledge knows you can’t row across the Pacific Ocean in a tiny boat. You’d need a galleon.