• We are looking for you!
    Always wanted to join our Supporting Team? We are looking for enthusiastic moderators!
    Take a look at our recruitement page for more information and how you can apply:
    Apply

[Question] Does it worth building Alcatraz for non GvG player?

DeletedUser34891

Hi all,
I want to ask your advice...
I'm in CA, currently playing in a non-GvG guild.
Someone offered me to buy the Alcatraz goods for 250FP - the deal seems ok.

Questions:
1. Does Alcatraz worth it if I don't play GvG?

2. What is the common and efficient use of it?
I understand I still need barracks of the units I want Alcatraz to produce, so I still invest space for the barracks+pop+happiness...

Thanks,
Maor
 

Ta 152H

Active Member
Hi all,
I want to ask your advice...
I'm in CA, currently playing in a non-GvG guild.
Someone offered me to buy the Alcatraz goods for 250FP - the deal seems ok.

Questions:
1. Does Alcatraz worth it if I don't play GvG?

2. What is the common and efficient use of it?
I understand I still need barracks of the units I want Alcatraz to produce, so I still invest space for the barracks+pop+happiness...

Thanks,
Maor
I typically don't build the Alcatrash unless I need to do GvG. I always do GE levels to 4, and typically get far more unattached troops doing that than I use. I end up with tons of units.

Now, if you have a weak attack, and are going to do GE level 4, you'll probably use up a lot of units, but I would say your root problem is with your attack buildings, not with your lack of the Trash.

If you do GvG, it's indispensable, plain and simple. If not, there are far better buildings to invest in. Arctic Orangery will give you must better combat results, once you have your "big three" attack GBs up. Plus, it gives forge points, and lots of them, as opposed to yet another happiness building that you probably don't need. On top of that, it helps with the defense of your city in most instances.

For 70 hexes, it really only is worth it for GvG. For the rest, you'll do fine in GE without it, provided you've done well with your other GBs. And you can if you're not wasting FP on the Trash.

It seems 95% of the people disagree with this, because basically it's become part of FoE hysteria that Alcatrash is a must have GB. It's not. I do much better without it on non-GvG worlds . But, as I said, if you do GvG, there's really no way around it. It becomes singularly important.
 

DeletedUser26965

It's pretty simple really, if you find yourself constantly struggling in need of units then of course, build it, if you don't really fight a lot of PvP, GE, GvG and cmap and do just fine with what you can make and such, well then I don't see the need for it.

What is the common and efficient use of it?
Mostly to have unattached units of any age to fight with in any province of GvG, or even PvP to some extent, can make lots of Rogues too, as long as you got a Rogue Hideout of course.
 

DeletedUser30900

Y
I typically don't build the Alcatrash unless I need to do GvG. I always do GE levels to 4, and typically get far more unattached troops doing that than I use. I end up with tons of units.

Now, if you have a weak attack, and are going to do GE level 4, you'll probably use up a lot of units, but I would say your root problem is with your attack buildings, not with your lack of the Trash.

If you do GvG, it's indispensable, plain and simple. If not, there are far better buildings to invest in. Arctic Orangery will give you must better combat results, once you have your "big three" attack GBs up. Plus, it gives forge points, and lots of them, as opposed to yet another happiness building that you probably don't need. On top of that, it helps with the defense of your city in most instances.

For 70 hexes, it really only is worth it for GvG. For the rest, you'll do fine in GE without it, provided you've done well with your other GBs. And you can if you're not wasting FP on the Trash.

It seems 95% of the people disagree with this, because basically it's become part of FoE hysteria that Alcatrash is a must have GB. It's not. I do much better without it on non-GvG worlds . But, as I said, if you do GvG, there's really no way around it. It becomes singularly important.
you can tell this guy don’t do pvp without asking:) typical sheep
 

Ta 152H

Active Member
Y

you can tell this guy don’t do pvp without asking:) typical sheep
I am always founder of my guilds, so I don't have to ask for anything.

Sheep is the loser that can't do PvC (It's not PvP if you don't compete against an actual human, it's more like a plastic pipe) without losing so many units he can do without a Alcatrash. Or the one that builds it, just because other people are building it, without considering whether it really makes sense in a particular situation.

Since I lose next to no units in anything but GvG, which requires auto, I don't need it. If your skill level doesn't allow that, then you do I suppose. But 70 hexes is a big price to pay.
 

Graviton

Well-Known Member
Sheep is the loser that can't do PvC (It's not PvP if you don't compete against an actual human, it's more like a plastic pipe) without losing so many units he can do without a Alcatrash.
My guess is that the vast majority of players fall somewhere between your awesome command of battle strategy and the "loser" who can't do PvP without losing any troops. Put that together with the happiness it provides and I'd still say it's a very good investment for most players.
 

Ta 152H

Active Member
My guess is that the vast majority of players fall somewhere between your awesome command of battle strategy and the "loser" who can't do PvP without losing any troops. Put that together with the happiness it provides and I'd still say it's a very good investment for most players.
Well, let's assume it has some value, which I think it clearly would in most situations. Does that value equate to 70 hexes, and a boatload of forge points?

I'd say it's a terrible investment for most players, outside of GvG. Because not only do we have to consider the massive amount of space it takes, but you also have to consider the FP it's going to take. GvG needs volume, GE and PvC do fine with quality. AO is a much better investment for these folks. Much better. Kraken wouldn't hurt either.

I never need happiness, and I think Inno has unbalanced the game a bit with making so many happy pieces. So, I give it essentially no value in that. I'd rather get happy from HS, which gives FP, which everyone needs. And it gives roughly the same happy per square. But, either way, I don't think happiness is a real issue anymore with most people.

If the Trash were a reasonable size, I'd be much more inclined to agree. For GvG, it's absolutely indispensable. But, for anyone else, I think there are better ways to use the space and the forge points.

But, that's what this thread is about. Not about someone making personal attacks without any basis, or without addressing the content. So, a good argument I think is helpful.
 
Last edited:

Stephen Longshanks

Hi all,
I want to ask your advice...
I'm in CA, currently playing in a non-GvG guild.
Someone offered me to buy the Alcatraz goods for 250FP - the deal seems ok.

Questions:
1. Does Alcatraz worth it if I don't play GvG?

2. What is the common and efficient use of it?
I understand I still need barracks of the units I want Alcatraz to produce, so I still invest space for the barracks+pop+happiness...

Thanks,
Maor
The answer to question #1 is yes. I do not do GvG, but I always build the Traz as soon as I am able. It is essential if you're going to battle in GE rather than negotiate, and battling instead of negotiating means that you will come out of GE with more goods instead of less.

The answer to question #2 is to use it mainly to produce Rogues. The key to battling through most, if not all, of GE is a good attack boost combined with the use of Rogues. As has been mentioned, you'll get plenty of unattached regular units through GE itself to use with the Rogues, so the most efficient use of the Traz is in conjunction with 1 Rogue Hideout and no other barracks. The exception to this is when you first move up in age and/or research a new military unit tech. Then you might want to put up a barracks for that unit for a few days to get a supply of that particular unit. You won't always want to do that, some units aren't worth having in bulk, but sometimes you will. (When you put up a barracks for the purpose of having the Traz produce that unit, it is not necessary to actually produce any units from that barracks, and definitely not worth unlocking more than the original two slots. And as long as the foundation for the barracks has been laid when the Traz is ready to collect, it will produce that unit, even if the build isn't finished.) This strategy will also benefit you greatly in PvP against your neighbors, but the biggest benefit is enabling you to battle through most/all of GE, making the goods won almost pure profit.

You will also be able to get rid of many Cultural buildings/Decorations with the Happiness the Traz produces.
 

Claire the Divergent

Active Member
Hi all,
I want to ask your advice...
I'm in CA, currently playing in a non-GvG guild.
Someone offered me to buy the Alcatraz goods for 250FP - the deal seems ok.

Questions:
1. Does Alcatraz worth it if I don't play GvG?

2. What is the common and efficient use of it?
I understand I still need barracks of the units I want Alcatraz to produce, so I still invest space for the barracks+pop+happiness...

Thanks,
Maor

It depends on how you play. I assume you care about efficiency because you are asking the question, and Traz is one of the 2 best GBs in the game for efficiency for 99% of the players out there. (The Arc is the other, but only for players that are locking prizes on other people's GBs). There are outliers, and if you play more like TA152 you can absolutely get GE done without Traz and put the space to better use.

Since you don't GvG, you should use Traz only to produce rogues (and if you are concerned about space, only place 1 hideout). You will get all the regular troops you need from GE unless you losses are heavy, and then you should level the other attack GBs to compensate, and/or only temporarily place a barracks to build up the needed unit(s) - in Colonial I recommend Grenadiers and Cavalry only for fastest auto attacks...although with cavalry you have to skip the cav before hitting Auto).

Traz is game-changing because it saves both space and time. It saves space because it replaces all your barracks except 1 hideout AND your happiness buildings (and negates the need for any other happiness GBs - which are all horrible except Hagia when it's power leveled after all other FP generating GBs are power leveled to 60+).

It saves time because you build up enough troops to not worry about casualties and thus allow extensive use of auto-attack through GE. The same results can be achieved by leveling all your attack GBs as TA152 suggests, but reaching that level of strength without a Traz takes a lot longer and thousands more FPs because you are leveling more GBs to get the same result.

However, if you like to fight manually and have the time to do it, AND your military boosts are strong enough, AND you don't need the happiness Traz provides, then don't waste the space.

If you do decide to build it, I recommend leveling it to at least level 3, but preferably level 6 so that it produces 6 troops/day. If you keep it at 4 troops/day it takes a lot longer for you to realize the benefit of having more rogues than you need. (edit: on all my alternate cities, I level my Traz to 10, which is ultimately what I recommend, but usually after getting Zeus to 10 first)
 
Last edited:

Claire the Divergent

Active Member
I should elaborate on my comment about all other happiness GBs being horrible. That statement does NOT apply to players that camp long-term in lower ages. In that case, the happiness provided by the happiness GBs can be very powerful. However, if you plan to level regularly they lose their power quickly as your population increases, and you will have potentially wasted thousands of FPs on a GB that provides less happiness than a regular happiness building at the higher ages (not to mention the premium ones you can buy and/or win from the last battle in GE3).
 

DeletedUser30900

But, that's what this thread is about. Not about someone making personal attacks without any basis, or without addressing the content. So, a good argument I think is helpful.
Alright, since you call that an attack, let me do the second round. How many battles did you fight since you started playing? you joined the forum in 2013 so I assume you joined the game before that, my total won battles are 17,019 and I only played for almost one year. Are your numbers bigger than mine? If so, would it still be bigger if mine multiplied by 5? Secondly, since you claim you can fight so-called PVC without losing any unit, can you show us all the screenshots of your neighbor's avatars with a plunderable sign?Make sure you screenshot your current units numbers before you start the fights too.Then compare it with the screenshots afterward. Please?
If you have fewer fights won than mine, you are sheep, and anyone who actively plunders will call you that too.
if you can't do what I'm asking, DONT MISLEAD NEW PLAYERS BY LYING!
 

DeletedUser30312

Claire pretty much covered it. If you do a lot of fighting, not just GvG, but PvP as well, the Traz is useful for generating units, especially rogues which are harder to produce in bulk than normal stuff. Having big attack buildings as well as the AO and Kraken will help you fight longer, but eventually you'll run out of fresh units. The GE produces units as well, but you need to camp a little bit too really gain a lot of them, and you're dependent on gold relics to make rogues. A player might get enough units out of the GE to keep fighting in GE, but extensive PvP combat will probably benefit from the Traz.

The Traz also saves space that would otherwise be spent on barracks and Rogue Hideouts, and barracks also eat up a good amount of space and workers. The less workers you need for barracks, the less houses you need. And there's the happiness bonus, which negates the need for cultural buildings.

I've argued before that anyone who doesn't fight shouldn't use space for the Traz because of its immensity. But anyone who fights a lot of PvP and/or GvG will want one.
 

Ta 152H

Active Member
It depends on how you play. I assume you care about efficiency because you are asking the question, and Traz is one of the 2 best GBs in the game for efficiency for 99% of the players out there. (The Arc is the other, but only for players that are locking prizes on other people's GBs). There are outliers, and if you play more like TA152 you can absolutely get GE done without Traz and put the space to better use.

Since you don't GvG, you should use Traz only to produce rogues (and if you are concerned about space, only place 1 hideout). You will get all the regular troops you need from GE unless you losses are heavy, and then you should level the other attack GBs to compensate, and/or only temporarily place a barracks to build up the needed unit(s) - in Colonial I recommend Grenadiers and Cavalry only for fastest auto attacks...although with cavalry you have to skip the cav before hitting Auto).

Traz is game-changing because it saves both space and time. It saves space because it replaces all your barracks except 1 hideout AND your happiness buildings (and negates the need for any other happiness GBs - which are all horrible except Hagia when it's power leveled after all other FP generating GBs are power leveled to 60+).

It saves time because you build up enough troops to not worry about casualties and thus allow extensive use of auto-attack through GE. The same results can be achieved by leveling all your attack GBs as TA152 suggests, but reaching that level of strength without a Traz takes a lot longer and thousands more FPs because you are leveling more GBs to get the same result.

However, if you like to fight manually and have the time to do it, AND your military boosts are strong enough, AND you don't need the happiness Traz provides, then don't waste the space.

If you do decide to build it, I recommend leveling it to at least level 3, but preferably level 6 so that it produces 6 troops/day. If you keep it at 4 troops/day it takes a lot longer for you to realize the benefit of having more rogues than you need. (edit: on all my alternate cities, I level my Traz to 10, which is ultimately what I recommend, but usually after getting Zeus to 10 first)
Claire pretty much covered it. If you do a lot of fighting, not just GvG, but PvP as well, the Traz is useful for generating units, especially rogues which are harder to produce in bulk than normal stuff. Having big attack buildings as well as the AO and Kraken will help you fight longer, but eventually you'll run out of fresh units. The GE produces units as well, but you need to camp a little bit too really gain a lot of them, and you're dependent on gold relics to make rogues. A player might get enough units out of the GE to keep fighting in GE, but extensive PvP combat will probably benefit from the Traz.

The Traz also saves space that would otherwise be spent on barracks and Rogue Hideouts, and barracks also eat up a good amount of space and workers. The less workers you need for barracks, the less houses you need. And there's the happiness bonus, which negates the need for cultural buildings.

I've argued before that anyone who doesn't fight shouldn't use space for the Traz because of its immensity. But anyone who fights a lot of PvP and/or GvG will want one.
I do fine without one. I have over 400 units on Z, without having a Traz, or barracks. It is not necessary, unless your skill level is low, your attack GBs are low, or you auto. In 70 spots, I could put a lot of hideouts if I needed rogues, which I never do, since add more just about every week (don't forget DC).

You're much better off going with an AO, which will severely limit your losses, than suffer more losses with a 70 hex unit, that doesn't give forge points. Unless you do GvG, or otherwise have to fight "auto" a lot.
 
Last edited:

Ta 152H

Active Member
Alright, since you call that an attack, let me do the second round. How many battles did you fight since you started playing? you joined the forum in 2013 so I assume you joined the game before that, my total won battles are 17,019 and I only played for almost one year. Are your numbers bigger than mine? If so, would it still be bigger if mine multiplied by 5? Secondly, since you claim you can fight so-called PVC without losing any unit, can you show us all the screenshots of your neighbor's avatars with a plunderable sign?Make sure you screenshot your current units numbers before you start the fights too.Then compare it with the screenshots afterward. Please?
If you have fewer fights won than mine, you are sheep, and anyone who actively plunders will call you that too.
if you can't do what I'm asking, DONT MISLEAD NEW PLAYERS BY LYING!
You're a hack, without skill, and you assume everyone else is.

I don't even know how many battles I fought, as I've deleted my old accounts, but really, if you're still learning how to fight after a few thousand, you're probably cursed with a sub-standard brain.

PvC I rarely lose units, but I normally don't attack "innocents", as I don't really like being a parasite. But, if you can't beat one wave without losing a unit most of the time, clearly even this simple game is too complicated for you. Better to stick to checkers.

The funny part is, you actually believe what I'm saying is difficult. It's not. If I lose four units in GE, doing all four levels, that's about it. Some ages are harder than others, of course, but I've never had an age I didn't always gain units for. If you can't do that, you're skill level is very low, or your GBs are horrible. It's not that hard. It really isn't.

Now if you want to make it very easy, get an AO. It's absolutely dominating. Leave the Trash for the GvG players, or the scrubs who can't think for themselves.
 

DeletedUser30900

You're a hack, without skill, and you assume everyone else is.

I don't even know how many battles I fought, as I've deleted my old accounts, but really, if you're still learning how to fight after a few thousand, you're probably cursed with a sub-standard brain.

PvC I rarely lose units, but I normally don't attack "innocents", as I don't really like being a parasite. But, if you can't beat one wave without losing a unit most of the time, clearly even this simple game is too complicated for you. Better to stick to checkers.

The funny part is, you actually believe what I'm saying is difficult. It's not. If I lose four units in GE, doing all four levels, that's about it. Some ages are harder than others, of course, but I've never had an age I didn't always gain units for. If you can't do that, you're skill level is very low, or your GBs are horrible. It's not that hard. It really isn't.

Now if you want to make it very easy, get an AO. It's absolutely dominating. Leave the Trash for the GvG players, or the scrubs who can't think for themselves.
Basically you have no proof for anything you are saying and you keep braving your fighting skill which can’t be proved without it. So I’m gonna leave you alone in your own world
 

Ta 152H

Active Member
Basically you have no proof for anything you are saying and you keep braving your fighting skill which can’t be proved without it. So I’m gonna leave you alone in your own world
I'm really not talking about fighting skill, so much as prioritizing AO over Trash, for non-GvG players. GvG, I'll go along with all the Trash players who say it's necessary. It is.

70 hexes is a lot of real estate. AO is smaller, and much more effective in GE and PvC, plus gives a very strong amount of forge points. If you fight manually, you don't need Trash.

It's just people have heard it so long, when it was more important (unattached are much easier to get now, with GE), people rarely question it, and just decide they need to get it. It's not that simple.
 

DeletedUser34285

If you have the space after all of the attacking and defending GBs along with any other GB would it be worth building imo.

As others pointed out, unless if you do GVG its probably not worth it. Negotiating in GE is the less time consuming way. What i personally do is attack ge first 2 and part of the 3rd with rogues then negotiate the rest. Rarely do i lose a rogue and i have plenty in stock from GE.

What are goods for outside of building gbs and ge? Nothing really. I have 8 goods buildings and even if i were to only negotiate my goods still increase weekly doing ge.

As for pvp, again; rarely do i lose rogues to those attacks. Get your attack and defensive gbs up and you have a big advantage.
 

DeletedUser34285

Btw. Read the title again. It clearly says for non gvg players.

Please stick to the FULL question. The only right answer is no, it's not worth it for non gvg players.
If you losing a lot of troops elsewhere (ge or pvp) you are doing it all wrong.
 

Stephen Longshanks

The only right answer is no
Maybe that's the only right answer for you, but not for everyone. I rarely if ever do GvG and I always build the Traz at the first opportunity. Negates the need for cultural buildings, which justifies at least half of the space it takes, and reduces your need for barracks down to one 2x3 Rogue Hideout. Plus it gives you military flexibility to produce whatever troops you want/need. Got a few 2 Spear defenses in the hood? Produce a few lower age units and rake in basically free medals from multiple towers each week. Without the Traz, you would have to either save units from each age as you move up, or build the barracks each week that you want to do this. With the Traz, you can produce any age unit (below your own age) whenever you need to or want to. No worries about losing any of them, because you can get more any time you want. There are just too many upsides to building it, and very little down side when you consider what it replaces.