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GbG ranking system

Darkest.Knight

Darkest.Knight

Well-Known Member
Seems to me LP works just fine, always know where I'll play next time thru. It's obvious to me that as a solo guild I'll never play in high Diamond, lol, I don't even like it when I slip and occasionally move up to Diamond.
 

Niikilou

New Member
coolmite said:
I believe there is a flaw in the current GbG ranking system and I'd love to get some feedback. It appears to be designed to reward the uber-elite guilds and the mediocre guilds. The very good guilds that are not quite elite, but better than mediocre really have no place in the rankings. The uber-elite will win in “high-diamond” every week (or most weeks). The mediocre guilds will lose in “high-diamond” and then get demoted to “low-diamond”. In “low-diamond” the mediocre guild will dominate. They will get a lot of Victory Points and they will notch a “victory” (the primary factor in the ranking system). Then they will be promoted back to “high diamond” where they don’t have a chance at competing. This cycle will continue until the end of the 6 session tournament where they will end with 3 victories and a fairly high ranking. Meanwhile, a “very good” guild (say the 5th best on the world) will likely never win a victory because they will have one of the top 4 guilds going against them every season. But it would also be highly unlikely for them to ever come in below 4th place in a single season. That means they stay in “high diamond” for the entire tournament. In the end, they have a lower ranking and less fragments than the mediocre guild that bounces between low and high diamond. For me, a guild that comes in 2nd place 6 straight weeks against the elite GbG guilds should not have a worse outcome than a guild that cannot compete against the top guilds on the server. It seems like you should not accumulate victories or VP unless you are grouped with all of the 1000 LP guilds. In my world, 7 of the top 10 guilds in the new rankings are guilds that bounce between high-diamond, low-diamond, and platinum. Currently, my guild is outside of the top 10 because we did not come in first last season. We have 2 "top 10" guilds on our current map. They are top 10 because they picked up a victory in low diamond last season. This season, they will come in 5th and 6th and go back to low diamond to pick up another victory. My guild will likely come in 2nd, yet we will still be ranked behind them. Everybody has told me this will all even out over time. But that isn't something that can even out unless we were to make the decision to tank and drop to low diamond. Sure, that is our choice and option, but don't you think that shows there is a flaw in the way teams are ranked? The only way to get a better ranking is to try less. That pretty clearly shows that the rankings aren't a true indication of the strength of a guild relative to others - which is what a ranking should be designed to show.
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I have to agree with this completely. We are too strong for lower diamond but not necessarily strong enough to win first in 1000 diamond. Currently we are holding 2nd. But Yet I see guilds with a quarter of our points ahead of us in rank and guilds I know who were not in 1000 diamond above us in rank because they won first in a lower league. So how is that fair?
 
Celtic Witch

Celtic Witch

New Member
The top 3 guilds in my world use 3rd party software that allows the following: 10 fights with one mouse click, set 8 DAs with 1 mouse click, build up treasury goods by tricking the market. The new GBG makes it 10x easier for them to dominate because they have never-ending supply of goods, and can outbuild all other guilds. Why Inno allows this I can't understand. They know it's being used, they know the name of the software... and it's spreading to other worlds like wildfire. One person in my world started using it, and then went to 3 other guilds and showed them how. Those three guilds now dominate the world in GBG, GE and GvG. I have stopped spending money, it's a waste on a game that's "fixed" for some but not for others.
 

Niikilou

New Member
The Celtic Witch said:
The top 3 guilds in my world use 3rd party software that allows the following: 10 fights with one mouse click, set 8 DAs with 1 mouse click, build up treasury goods by tricking the market. The new GBG makes it 10x easier for them to dominate because they have never-ending supply of goods, and can outbuild all other guilds. Why Inno allows this I can't understand. They know it's being used, they know the name of the software... and it's spreading to other worlds like wildfire. One person in my world started using it, and then went to 3 other guilds and showed them how. Those three guilds now dominate the world in GBG, GE and GvG. I have stopped spending money, it's a waste on a game that's "fixed" for some but not for others.
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Agree
 

coolmite

Member
In looking at the new rankings after season2, it appears to go current LP, followed by victories, followed by VP. I think if they used cumulative LP instead of current - it would go a long way towards making the rankings more indicative of actual guild skill. The teams that always stay in high diamond would be ranked over the teams that bounce back and forth. After that, the teams that stay in high diamond would be rewarded for the most season wins. That makes more sense to me.
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
Orius Maximus said:
That's what it looks like to me. I think the LP followed by VP would better measure a guild's skill.
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What he's saying is in round 3 of the championship the guilds that stayed at 1000 would now be at 3000 (cumulative LP). While a guild that got bounced 1000->850->1000 would now be at 2850 and not ranked as strongly. He's primarily looking to cure the concept of running up whatever matters in platinum (or lower!) to appear higher ranked. i.e. the 1000->850->1000 guild probably got a lot of VP as well as a victory from their platinum round - and may be ranked ahead of a perennial 4th place guild - even though the one that bounced to platinum should be considered as having worse results.
 

GeniePower

Member
xivarmy said:
What he's saying is in round 3 of the championship the guilds that stayed at 1000 would now be at 3000 (cumulative LP). While a guild that got bounced 1000->850->1000 would now be at 2850 and not ranked as strongly. He's primarily looking to cure the concept of running up whatever matters in platinum (or lower!) to appear higher ranked. i.e. the 1000->850->1000 guild probably got a lot of VP as well as a victory from their platinum round - and may be ranked ahead of a perennial 4th place guild - even though the one that bounced to platinum should be considered as having worse results.
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We just came to the same conclusion in a discord for our world. Cumulative VP would solve the issues and actually place the "perpetual 2nd place" guilds where they belong. The current system doesn't work.
 

Orius Maximus

Well-Known Member
xivarmy said:
What he's saying is in round 3 of the championship the guilds that stayed at 1000 would now be at 3000 (cumulative LP). While a guild that got bounced 1000->850->1000 would now be at 2850 and not ranked as strongly. He's primarily looking to cure the concept of running up whatever matters in platinum (or lower!) to appear higher ranked. i.e. the 1000->850->1000 guild probably got a lot of VP as well as a victory from their platinum round - and may be ranked ahead of a perennial 4th place guild - even though the one that bounced to platinum should be considered as having worse results.
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Yeah I got that. But I think LP alone isn't necessarily the best measure especially with guilds that ping pong between Diamond and Platinum, and VP is another way of looking at long term skill and accomplishment.
 

Tarquinus 797 the Just

New Member
coolmite said:
I believe there is a flaw in the current GbG ranking system and I'd love to get some feedback. It appears to be designed to reward the uber-elite guilds and the mediocre guilds. The very good guilds that are not quite elite, but better than mediocre really have no place in the rankings. The uber-elite will win in “high-diamond” every week (or most weeks). The mediocre guilds will lose in “high-diamond” and then get demoted to “low-diamond”. In “low-diamond” the mediocre guild will dominate. They will get a lot of Victory Points and they will notch a “victory” (the primary factor in the ranking system). Then they will be promoted back to “high diamond” where they don’t have a chance at competing. This cycle will continue until the end of the 6 session tournament where they will end with 3 victories and a fairly high ranking. Meanwhile, a “very good” guild (say the 5th best on the world) will likely never win a victory because they will have one of the top 4 guilds going against them every season. But it would also be highly unlikely for them to ever come in below 4th place in a single season. That means they stay in “high diamond” for the entire tournament. In the end, they have a lower ranking and less fragments than the mediocre guild that bounces between low and high diamond. For me, a guild that comes in 2nd place 6 straight weeks against the elite GbG guilds should not have a worse outcome than a guild that cannot compete against the top guilds on the server. It seems like you should not accumulate victories or VP unless you are grouped with all of the 1000 LP guilds. In my world, 7 of the top 10 guilds in the new rankings are guilds that bounce between high-diamond, low-diamond, and platinum. Currently, my guild is outside of the top 10 because we did not come in first last season. We have 2 "top 10" guilds on our current map. They are top 10 because they picked up a victory in low diamond last season. This season, they will come in 5th and 6th and go back to low diamond to pick up another victory. My guild will likely come in 2nd, yet we will still be ranked behind them. Everybody has told me this will all even out over time. But that isn't something that can even out unless we were to make the decision to tank and drop to low diamond. Sure, that is our choice and option, but don't you think that shows there is a flaw in the way teams are ranked? The only way to get a better ranking is to try less. That pretty clearly shows that the rankings aren't a true indication of the strength of a guild relative to others - which is what a ranking should be designed to show.
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You hit the nail on the head.
 

coolmite

Member
Orius Maximus said:
Yeah I got that. But I think LP alone isn't necessarily the best measure especially with guilds that ping pong between Diamond and Platinum, and VP is another way of looking at long term skill and accomplishment.
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Cumulative LP would solve that. A guild that comes in 2nd 3 times in a row in "high diamond" would have 3000 cumulative LP. A guild that is in high diamond, then comes in 5th (-25), then wins and bounces back to high diamond would have 2975. That way, even if the guild that got bumped down to low diamond and got a win, the guild that stayed in high diamond would still be ranked higher. I think that is closer to the true ranking. The current system rewards a team that can't compete in high diamond but gets demoted to low diamond to dominate.
 
Johnny B. Goode

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
coolmite said:
A guild that comes in 2nd 3 times in a row in "high diamond" would have 3000 cumulative LP.
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I don't know how they would, highest number of LP you can get in one session is 175 unless they've changed things. So even if they won 3 times in a row they'd only have 1525 LP.
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
Johnny B. Goode said:
I don't know how they would, highest number of LP you can get in one session is 175 unless they've changed things. So even if they won 3 times in a row they'd only have 1525 LP.
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round 1: they have 1000 LP, so they're at 1000. They finish in the top 4 and are still in 1000.
round 2: they have 1000 LP from the first round + 1000 LP from the 2nd round = 2000. They finish in the top 4 and are still in 1000.
round 3: they have 1000 LP + 2000 from past rounds = 3000.

Basically it's a sum-history of their LP for that championship to make sure earning points in sub-1000 is inferior to staying in 1000, however many points you get there.
 
Johnny B. Goode

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
xivarmy said:
round 1: they have 1000 LP, so they're at 1000. They finish in the top 4 and are still in 1000.
round 2: they have 1000 LP from the first round + 1000 LP from the 2nd round = 2000. They finish in the top 4 and are still in 1000.
round 3: they have 1000 LP + 2000 from past rounds = 3000.

Basically it's a sum-history of their LP for that championship to make sure earning points in sub-1000 is inferior to staying in 1000, however many points you get there.
Click to expand...
Except you don't get 1000 LP for finishing first, you get 175. The 1000 LP in the second round is the same 1000 LP they had in the first round. If you have cumulative LP, then it would be 1000 + 175 = 1175, then 1175 + 175 = 1350, then 1350 + 175 = 1525. They have 1000 LP to start with because that's what they've earned getting to Diamond League, that's not what they get for winning. Surely you all don't think that you've been earning 1000 LP each session. Of course, this all ignores the fact that LP has been capped at 1000 since it began, and Diamond guilds have earned way more than 1000 LP along the way.
 
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