Guild vs Guild Improvements Feedback

[DreadfulCadillac]

There are so many changes here that are going to cause all kinds of issues. That's a LOT of changes to make all at once.
The biggest issue here is going to be unit recruitment time.

Additional Recalc Timers (4hr) - This is going to be completely unmanageable for most guilds. Having to fill and siege is going to become nearly impossible to keep up with, not to mention the cost of the goods. Will also need more drops available to help manage costs. It just seems like this is going for force even more NAPs which is lame. It also means one motivated guild can wipe whole maps in 24 hours.

Removal of Bronze units - Like others are saying, might as well stop calling it AA. This will certainly help make it harder to hold half the AA map, so i guess that's cool. Just abuse the system in other ways. It does kind of stink that lower age players won't be able to help in AA as much. We have long used the "SF Brigade" to train our newbies. On the flip side, at least we'll be getting better fights. Probably lots of 8R's until everyone runs out.

Reduce point farming profitability - As someone loathes champ farming, i like the idea on the surface. The problem is, this just makes it 10x easier to fill those tiles. Just load them up with junk early age units, then drop and get tiles full of huge point fights. give me give me more! yay. Also really great for blocking off guilds that have no access to SAM age units. seriously, this screws the little guy in AA so bad it's hilarious. I love it though Looking forward to 200-300M point weeks. no champ farming needed.

Confirmation checkboxes - whoa boy, the troop blender just got an upgrade. This is going to make it so much harder to take tiles that are being fully defended. There's going to be less "skill" involved with getting the siege in and/or filling DAs. On the upside, anyone that's been using macros to siege/fill loses their unfair advantage, so for that alone, this is great.

Camera Focus - This is actually my fav change. Really helpful for filling, or for doing those tedious CE tiles when you want to manually fight to save units.

TLDR - GvG is going to turn into an unsustainable troop blender for 99% of players/guilds. Fighting guilds are going to get screwed by NAP guilds. Champ farmers will continue to farm, but it won't be quite as profitable. Non-SAM players are screwed in AA.


No complaints without suggestions, right?
- Give tiles 8, 12, or 24-hour protection from when they are captured. Have rolling resets instead of specific hourly.
- NPCs in AA should have units from random ages. Making them all SAM makes it too easy to abuse for either 1) farming or 2) trapping less developed guilds. Random age will make it harder to abuse for point farming and/or trapping other guilds.
- Allow 4 drops per player per 4hr calc (if not using rolling, if rolling, then 4 per rolling period, also rolling).
- Give Founders more drops per cycle (8+ up to unlimited)
- Give Leaders more drops per cycle but less than Founders. (6+ up to less than founders)
- Reduce recruitment time for units. Going from recalc every 24hr to recalc every 4hr without giving a faster recruitment time is going to make fighting unsustainable for most players. Especially those that siege/fill.

so much agreed, this is my new signature, AND ill follow ya, dont care if u follow back

 

[DeletedUser4491]

There are so many changes here that are going to cause all kinds of issues. That's a LOT of changes to make all at once.
The biggest issue here is going to be unit recruitment time.

Additional Recalc Timers (4hr) - This is going to be completely unmanageable for most guilds. Having to fill and siege is going to become nearly impossible to keep up with, not to mention the cost of the goods. Will also need more drops available to help manage costs. It just seems like this is going for force even more NAPs which is lame. It also means one motivated guild can wipe whole maps in 24 hours.

Removal of Bronze units - Like others are saying, might as well stop calling it AA. This will certainly help make it harder to hold half the AA map, so i guess that's cool. Just abuse the system in other ways. It does kind of stink that lower age players won't be able to help in AA as much. We have long used the "SF Brigade" to train our newbies. On the flip side, at least we'll be getting better fights. Probably lots of 8R's until everyone runs out.

Reduce point farming profitability - As someone loathes champ farming, i like the idea on the surface. The problem is, this just makes it 10x easier to fill those tiles. Just load them up with junk early age units, then drop and get tiles full of huge point fights. give me give me more! yay. Also really great for blocking off guilds that have no access to SAM age units. seriously, this screws the little guy in AA so bad it's hilarious. I love it though Looking forward to 200-300M point weeks. no champ farming needed.

Confirmation checkboxes - whoa boy, the troop blender just got an upgrade. This is going to make it so much harder to take tiles that are being fully defended. There's going to be less "skill" involved with getting the siege in and/or filling DAs. On the upside, anyone that's been using macros to siege/fill loses their unfair advantage, so for that alone, this is great.

Camera Focus - This is actually my fav change. Really helpful for filling, or for doing those tedious CE tiles when you want to manually fight to save units.

TLDR - GvG is going to turn into an unsustainable troop blender for 99% of players/guilds. Fighting guilds are going to get screwed by NAP guilds. Champ farmers will continue to farm, but it won't be quite as profitable. Non-SAM players are screwed in AA.


No complaints without suggestions, right?
- Give tiles 8, 12, or 24-hour protection from when they are captured. Have rolling resets instead of specific hourly.
- NPCs in AA should have units from random ages. Making them all SAM makes it too easy to abuse for either 1) farming or 2) trapping less developed guilds. Random age will make it harder to abuse for point farming and/or trapping other guilds.
- Allow 4 drops per player per 4hr calc (if not using rolling, if rolling, then 4 per rolling period, also rolling).
- Give Founders more drops per cycle (8+ up to unlimited)
- Give Leaders more drops per cycle but less than Founders. (6+ up to less than founders)
- Reduce recruitment time for units. Going from recalc every 24hr to recalc every 4hr without giving a faster recruitment time is going to make fighting unsustainable for most players. Especially those that siege/fill.

I think the main complaint from most players with regard to GvG was that there was no movement and a handful of guilds dominating most maps. I think while you point out some valid concerns, most of these changes are directly addressing what was the primary issues with GvG.

Timers - the whole point is to make it harder to hold large swaths of land, if a guild does wipe a whole map - kudos for being motivated and thank you for providing me with more available fights.

BA units - are we really outraged about this, can't we use IA units? Aren't most players still developing their cities in BA and truly start fighting in IA anyway.

Point Farming - totally on the same page with you on this one, loading with SAM units is just another form of point farming - like the random unit fills if it's not a huge ask from a code standpoint.

Conf checkbox - It should be harder to take tiles, as it stands it's pretty easy (and IMO unbalanced) on the side of the attacker currently. Making it a little easier to get Defense into a tile simply balances the field a little....and quite frankly probably still isn't going to hold off attackers - like you said, more fights!

Suggestions - I've already mentioned I'm in favor of less recalcs, just agreed on random AA units, I would also agree with some form of more drops - you want to keep abuse down limit it to giving Founders more drops (although the way around this is with Ghost guilds and just making everyone a Founder). I don't think the recruitment times need to be tweeked - level up your Traz and/or put down more military barracks. Well thought through though and I agree with a lot of it!!

 

[Talon Underhill]

I like it all. It will change the way we fight, the way we lay out our cities, and most importantly require guilds to come up with new strategies for GvG. Troop and treasury conservation will become more important. Maps will have a lot more guilds holding tiles on them with the top guilds holding fewer tiles.

The only downside I see has been pointed out several times. I don't need champs to farm. A tile full of SAM units is a feast no matter which units they are. I like random troops from all the ages instead. It seems a good solution.

Another fix for farming would be that dropped tiles cannot be retaken for 24 hours from the drop instead of the next reset. Of course that would stop all drop and recaptures at reset too so might hurt more than it helps.

Regardless, I look forward to the changes. Thanks Inno!

 

[DeletedUser27078]

There is no mention of the time frame for the protected sectors? Are those bubbles going to last the 24 hours? If those bubbles are going to go away after 4 hours in accordance with the new reset times or will it stay for the 24 hours like the HQ move and tiles drops? If bubbles are going to disappear in 4 hours that is a HUGE issue? Why would any guild work to capture a sector that they can only hold for 4 hours and then not be able to move their HQ for another 20 hours. This is a terrible idea and will be the death of GVG. The protected tiles need to last the full 24 hours just like the HQ move and the sector drops.

 

[vimesfan]

I echo the comments from others that it seems counterproductive to fill AA tiles with the highest age units possible. The goal should be to encourage more use of GvG, not less. AA is going to be out of reach to any newer-aged players trying to pick up an NPC.

 

[DeletedUser27713]

Reduce Point Farming: The change you suggest won't reduce point farming... most of it is done on the AA map and simply changing out champs isn't really enough. A sector could theoretically be farmed for points up to 6 times per day instead of just once. Also, one could dump low level troops in and farm SAM troops - this does the opposite of what I believe is intended... makes point farming easier.
Suggestion #1: A dropped sector cannot be re-sieged (by the guild that dropped it) for 24 hours. This way, other guilds have a chance to go after it but not the guild that dropped it.
Suggestion #2: Troops in a dropped sector should be replaced with random troops from ALL ages (not the highest age).

 

[DeletedUser4491]

There is no mention of the time frame for the protected sectors? Are those bubbles going to last the 24 hours? If those bubbles are going to go away after 4 hours in accordance with the new reset times or will it stay for the 24 hours like the HQ move and tiles drops? If bubbles are going to disappear in 4 hours that is a HUGE issue? Why would any guild work to capture a sector that they can only hold for 4 hours and then not be able to move their HQ for another 20 hours. This is a terrible idea and will be the death of GVG. The protected tiles need to last the full 24 hours just like the HQ move and the sector drops.

From the original post:
"Additional Recalculation Timers
Probably the biggest change we plan to implement is that we're going to change the daily calculation to a 4-hourly calculation. Within this the Guild Power, Guild Ranking, GvG Support Pool bonus and sector protection will be recalculated. However, Guild Level, HQ relocation and GvG Sector freedom grants will remain on a 24-hour timer."

 

[DeletedUser40361]

Additional recalculation timers:
It seems to bring a lot of chaos to the current format of GvG. Ghost guilds can do a lot of damage and it makes it impossible for established guilds to hold land. Even 1 pissed player with high attack bonus and some free time at odd times can do serious damage to a guild. We need some additional constraints to make it reasonable. Some suggestions:
1. Cap number of sieges a player can lay in each era (a total siege cap is more vulnerable to duplicate accounts abuse). Maybe an unlimited or higher number of sieges in their current age. For players over FE, the current age is considered as AA. The goal is to control ghosting.
2. Balance the defense bonus of sectors according to the current high attack bonuses of players. Another option is to cap the attack bonus for players on each era (according to the era) except AA.
3. Change the AI of GvG and make it like the continental maps. Big guns are not losing any troops in most of the fights. They should either lose troops or do manual. Either one will balance the number of sectors they would take in the long term. Also, it prevents a fighter with a huge amount of rogues to fight in all the maps without any limit.

Also, reducing the number of resets as some players have suggested will defeat the purpose. Either have 4 or 6 resets or keep the current format.

Reduce Point Farming Profitability:
The current change allows to ask the lower age players to add any kind of DAs in AA and once they release the sector it will be Mars troops. It is going to start another kind of abuse. Also, farming still does exist but only for Mars or highest age players.
Suggestion:
releasing should change each defensive army to a random army of the highest troop in that army or lower eras. There could be a 10-20% chance of each army to change to all rogues.

 

[DeletedUser8115]

This is the GvG killer. It was hard enough to hold our own against these diamond healing script kiddies once a day, now they turn that into 6. Goodnight. But hey, the plan is probably to drop interest in GvG so they can pin that on the players when they roll out their shiny new GvG toy in 6 months and kill this one off for good. Ever see the movie "Major League", where the new owner is sabotaging her own team so it stops generating revenue and she has an excuse to move it to Miami? We're living it. Time to find a new game

 

[DeletedUser40782]

Additional Recalc Timers (4hr) - This is an interesting change. It will not only reduce lag at the main recalc, but it will allow a larger # of people to participate. Having a wide variety of people that play at different times per day is suddenly valuable. It's going to create some chaos, and small guilds will be able to do a lot of damage, but with as dead as GvG has been for quite a while, this is probably a good thing. Besides, small guilds need their fun too, especially as the player base shrinks.

It has long been silly that if you really wanted to participate in GvG, you needed to be on at 7 CST.

Removal of Bronze units - Another solid change. I'm not sure why everyone cares so much about calling it "AA Map". Change the name if it bothers people that much. Weirdest objection I've seen.

Reduce point farming profitability - This one seems like it's being implemented incorrectly. Troop fills should probably be random. Filling it with high point troops when dropped is going to affect newer players negatively, and give point farmers more reason to point farm.

Confirmation checkboxes - Solid change. The checkboxes are mostly pointless anyway, and with the amount of macro'ing and server lag/glitches, the "skill" involved is setting sieges/fills is already minimal. It's just a #'s game.

Camera Focus - This is great.

All in all, not bad. Probably not enough of a change to make GvG really fun/interesting, but an update was needed badly. Curious to see the results.

 

[DeletedUser27713]

Reduce Point Farming: The change you suggest won't reduce point farming... most of it is done on the AA map and simply changing out champs isn't really enough. A sector could theoretically be farmed for points up to 6 times per day instead of just once. Also, one could dump low level troops in and farm SAM troops - this does the opposite of what I believe is intended... makes point farming easier.
Suggestion #1: A dropped sector cannot be re-sieged (by the guild that dropped it) for 24 hours. This way, other guilds have a chance to go after it but not the guild that dropped it.
Suggestion #2: Troops in a dropped sector should be replaced with random troops from ALL ages (not the highest age).

If you really want to eliminate point farming, it's simple --> prohibit re-siege of any dropped sector (by the guild that drops it)... only once another guild takes the sector can it be attacked.

 

[DeletedUser40784]

A good way to cut lag would be to go ahead and create a separate continent for upper ages and power it separately. That way GVG players would be split between two maps .

I also agree with what someone said above, that if you're going to change the timers that it should be varied and unpredictable rather than at set intervals of time...also one calc should not be more powerful than the others or people are just going to wait for the important one anyway.

Also, the all ages map has never really been all ages. I can't go in there as an iron age player and really do anything of significance. If you really want an all ages map, then you should make it to where each tile randomly has an age assigned to it, and only those troops can be used on that specific tile.

 

[Algona]

Most frequent complaint so far is the name of the AA Map?

I'm really curious about the schedule. When will which features be released? One big rollout? Different fixes and changes at different times?

Is INNO still looking for or gonna listen to suggestions or are these changes writ in stone?

 

[DeletedUser11467]

Other stuff is fine with me But way too many recalcs. Heavily favors pirate guilds and people that live on the game. My first thought is that strong guilds can go through what they want and make weak ones quit GvG....maybe even the game if they care about GvG. Arcs give plenty of goods and medals are free, so easy to do really.
I currently have no lag. The game can be glitchy (sieges not showing, etc) at any time...so that will not change. So more recalcs just seem to be a random addition for other reasons in my opinion. Like inno wanting us on the game at all times of day and night. Or to kill GvG for the ones holding onto it.

 

[DeletedUser18288]

I like almost all of it. People have been complaining or asking for years for them to fix GVG at least give the props for working on it. As far as point farming i really dont care about how many point someone has. If they think that makes them a better player then let them have that little bit of joy. By the time people are point farming on the AA map they most likely have all their medal expansions so its mostly for bragging rights anyway. I do see were this will make guild rethink GVG now and that is a good thing.

 

[DeletedUser5313]

Since AA has been here since AF and there are no new maps for those ages, why not change it so that only AF, OF, VF and SAM troops can be used for sieging and placing DA's in AA?

 

[DeletedUser2344]

LOL. GvG will no longer be an organized event. With recalc and sector protection ending every 4 hours, any guild can set a timer all night and take a multitude of hexes before everyone wakes up in the morning. Just pure choas.

 

[-Sebastian-]

First off, thanks for spending time on GvG, and thanks for the bugfixes (whatever they may be). Here's my feedback. I haven't quite been playing a year and a half, so I'm no expert, and take this with a grain of salt...

Additional Recalculation Timers: I'm afraid that this is going to eliminate a lot of strategy, and turn GvG into a mindless strength-fest. And I don't know about anyone else, but I *like* having downtime every day - a time to fight, and a time to build (a time of war, and a time of peace). If you're going to do this, please, please start with something less drastic, like 2 12-hour shifts, or 3 8-hour shifts. Or as another alternative, what about having the GvG fighters on each world vote on their 2nd recal time (or 3rd, or maybe how many recals to have in the first place). I know it's probably infeasible, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. I mean, why do all worlds have to have recal at exactly the same time? For example, if I'm on the west coast of America, playing on a US server, maybe I want a world where recal *isn't* at 5 pm.

Removal of Bronze Age Units: Meh. Bronze Age players can't fight in GvG (can't even look at the maps), so AA was never truly "all ages". But I'm unclear as to what exactly the problem here is. I'm in CA, and when I put up CA troops in AA, I can tell that they're devoured much more quickly than SAM troops are. 8 spearfighters only buy a few seconds. I suppose you can slow people down by having 1 or 2 SAM DAs and the rest spearfighters, but that's nowhere as good as a full SAM defense, and it actually lets lower-era players (like me) help by trying to pick off the spearfighter DAs. I guess, overall, my main concern is that spearfighters give lower-era players several different ways to help in AA, and I'd be sad to lose them.

Reduce Point Farming Profitability: No, please no, not like this. This will mean that no player who isn't SAM (or maybe OF) can ever take a free AA sector. If the DAs are random, then that eliminates any player skill in picking DA combinations. And it's currently a sometimes-useful tactic, to free a sector with just 1 DA of easy troops, so that it can be taken quickly. As an alternative, what about simply reducing the points that champions give, and maybe instead make them give a small (10%?) boost to the points from the entire battle, which wouldn't stack with multiple champs. Or, what about just doing nothing - why are point-farmers such a problem? Player score doesn't have any direct impact on the game, and if players want to spend their time dropping and retaking GvG sectors filled with champions, I don't feel the need to stop them from having their fun. I always thought that one of the best parts of this game was that there were so many different ways to play it.

Confirmation Checkboxes: I don't think I've done enough GvG to have a real opinion here. It *sounds* like a good idea.

Camera Focus: Ditto.

Bug Fixes: Thank you in advance! :-D

 

[DeletedUser5313]

Chaos is fun.

 

[DeletedUser40143]

First of all, thank you inno for giving this a shot. GvG certainly needs adjustment and these are steps in the right direction. Comments:

Additional Recalc Timers (4hr) - Two opinions on this one. Good: this is great for off-calc players and will increase participation for sure. Bad: this gives ghost guilds 5 additional times per day to just wipe maps out. Guilds that try to hold tiles will not possibly keep up and will haev drained treasuries quickly, and DAs will be impossible to keep up with. So this will be the end of guilds even trying to hold tiles or even bother stocking DAs. I think Inno agrees the strength of a guild should be based on holdings, but this will make that all impossible now. Some effort to contain the power of ghosts in response to this would be helpful. Penalize drops somehow? Remove the refunding of goods? Reduce the number of drops per player even further? Penalize guilds that drop with a reduction in guild power? Limit the number of sieges per player per age? I'm not sure but something has to accompany this change.

Removal of Bronze units - Like it. Agree with others who have suggested dropped tiles not be replaced with all Mars troops but my random age troops or some other mix to reduce point farming. It is very possible to point farm Mars npcs.

Reduce point farming profitability - Agree completely with the motivation, this one sounds like it needs tweaking though because farming Mars troops is completely possible. AA troop fills should probably be random age.