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GvG Improvements Update Feedback

DeletedUser27734

I agree that a four hour calc timer would be bad. It would turn GvG into a 24/7 coffee freak thing. How about a 23 or 30 hour timer instead, to include people from other time zones better? That would give everyone a chance to play in prime time and keep the same general pace, which is good.
 

DeletedUser40780

The proposed changes say they are to increase participation, help with lag, and reduce champ/point farming. I'm finally on board with all of them. I hope they go through live 100% as originally proposed.

The reality is there's plenty of chance to fight right now. The players that are unhappy with the current setup are wanting to knock off the top guilds on their servers and prevent "the wall" from being built daily. Totally understandable about "the wall." But let's quit acting like "small guilds" and "new guilds" don't have a place to fight. They are choosing not to fight among each other. Let's also quit acting like it's going to significantly increase GvG participation.

There's plenty of changes that would stop "the wall" from being built and to force top guilds to fight more. Elite guilds will stay on top regardless.

GvG guilds are going to GvG. And guilds that don't GvG will never nurture their players into doing GvG. If you want more people to participate in GvG, give them a reason to. Give GvG specific rewards or achievements. There needs to be something that causes players to become interested in GvG without their guild promoting it.

Also, give newbies resources to learn. As noted, GvG has a pretty steep learning curve. More resources, whether training videos or tutorials or true training grounds to learn the mechanisms without risk/cost will certainly at least help ease the process on transitioning non-gvg guilds into gvg guilds.
 

DeletedUser35470

I agree that a 23 hour recalc timer would make more sense as well. However the reset might need to be programmed such that there were blackout times where the reset does not occur for the dominant audience of the server. For example 2am-7am might be off limits for all the timezones for the server.

As an example a US server includes Eastern Time - Hawaii Time so resets could occur in the following time frames (these are all the same block - just showing each timezone)
7am-8pm HT (GMT-10)
10am-11pm PT (GMT-7)
11am-12pm MT (GMT-6)
12pm-1am CT (GMT-5)
1pm-2am ET (GMT-4)

Obviously, thanks to DST moving to Standard this would increase the ending of the window by an hour since Hawaii doesn't observe that headache during Standard time. Making it 12pm-2am ET (GMT-5) - other timezones follow suite and Hawaii time now goes from 7am-9pm.

Looking at a simple example using Daylight time the rotation would look like:
Day one the reset would occur at 2am ET.
Day1: 2am ET
Day2: 1am ET
Day3: 12pm ET
Day4: 11pm ET
Day5: 10pm ET
...
Day18 9am ET
Day19 8am ET
Day20 7am ET
Day21 2am ET (only 19 hours)
Day22 1am ET
and so on.

Of course, it's simpler just to do every 23 hours regardless of server dominant time zones...but that communicates the idea. Every 23 hours provides a way to ensure more people from the guild can experience a reset as not everyone can make 5pm Pacicic/8pm Eastern for US servers.
 

BruteForceAttack

Well-Known Member
If you
I agree that a 23 hour recalc timer would make more sense as well. However the reset might need to be programmed such that there were blackout times where the reset does not occur for the dominant audience of the server. For example 2am-7am might be off limits for all the timezones for the server.

As an example a US server includes Eastern Time - Hawaii Time so resets could occur in the following time frames (these are all the same block - just showing each timezone)
7am-8pm HT (GMT-10)
10am-11pm PT (GMT-7)
11am-12pm MT (GMT-6)
12pm-1am CT (GMT-5)
1pm-2am ET (GMT-4)

Obviously, thanks to DST moving to Standard this would increase the ending of the window by an hour since Hawaii doesn't observe that headache during Standard time. Making it 12pm-2am ET (GMT-5) - other timezones follow suite and Hawaii time now goes from 7am-9pm.

Looking at a simple example using Daylight time the rotation would look like:
Day one the reset would occur at 2am ET.
Day1: 2am ET
Day2: 1am ET
Day3: 12pm ET
Day4: 11pm ET
Day5: 10pm ET
...
Day18 9am ET
Day19 8am ET
Day20 7am ET
Day21 2am ET (only 19 hours)
Day22 1am ET
and so on.

Of course, it's simpler just to do every 23 hours regardless of server dominant time zones...but that communicates the idea. Every 23 hours provides a way to ensure more people from the guild can experience a reset as not everyone can make 5pm Pacicic/8pm Eastern for US servers.

If you ask the few who do GVG everyday most if not all of them will say key part of GVG is Team work, having a 23hr recalc breaks team play.
 

BruteForceAttack

Well-Known Member
Probably many may not like this, but how about expanding the proposed "Attrition" concept throughout FOE?

Be it GbG/GVG/GE/PvP/DC/C-map/ or whatever... a fight is fight...and negotiation is negotiation. That will kindof keep a cap of how many fights a player can do.
 

DeletedUser10789

LMAO.
So many new players who have little to no experience with GvG. You see, this is why the Beta Server and Forums is where the real feedback is given.
A 4 hour re-calc., as I stated before, will kill GvG over the next 3-5 months. Look at page 2 to see me calling that out already. Like 4 days ago. And here we sit still having people talk about 4 hour re-calcs.

Do any of you realize that the game plans new elements by which it will change things around on the game. Before some of you all started this game, there was NO GE. There was NO Tavern to sit in and get boosts. Many new aspects of the game came in and I am missing a ton of them. Did any of you look at the new element of the game with Guilds vs Guilds, NOT GvG. The new aspect of like a GE on Steriods. A little reading about the what is to come, does not hurt anyone. They tried to change the re-calc. before and many people revolted and the game re-considered the time change. Notice a pattern here, all. ? Now more people who cry and whine want that change yet again, when the Devs in the past thought about it and decided NOT to change it. Wonder why.? Ask them. Now ask yourself, if it was such a great idea then and they didn't do it what makes any of you think that changing it now is the right answer. Wow, sometimes I really wonder what people on here think. It is no wonder why some seasoned players, like myself, never post on here. The drama caused by newer players who make demands for changes they know little to nothing about. Wow.
 

DeletedUser40780

LMAO.
So many new players who have little to no experience with GvG. You see, this is why the Beta Server and Forums is where the real feedback is given.
A 4 hour re-calc., as I stated before, will kill GvG over the next 3-5 months. Look at page 2 to see me calling that out already. Like 4 days ago. And here we sit still having people talk about 4 hour re-calcs.

I'm fine with 4hr change because our guild will adapt and use it to our advantage. I think it's going to be very unhealthy for GvG as a whole. You did point out inno attempted another recalc time and changed it back after it was rejected by the players. That'll happen again.

It's simple - the game/GvG is balanced around 24 hour cycles. Unit production, goods productions for treasury, collections, etc. When you add the stress of 5 more recalcs, something has to give. The numbers don't add up.

The right issues are being addressed (i.e. participation, lag, point farming), but completely the wrong way imo. It'll be fun to see the mayhem that goes down after the changes.. Should bring some extra lively forum discussion once it goes live. XD
 
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DeletedUser9040

i think it would be better to reduce the point in half that you get fighting champs in any age .
 

DeletedUser

A 4 hour re-calc., as I stated before, will kill GvG over the next 3-5 months. Look at page 2 to see me calling that out already. Like 4 days ago. And here we sit still having people talk about 4 hour re-calcs.
Sorry, we didn't realize that once you decreed something it was set in stone. We shall immediately consign that subject to the taboo list and never speak of it again. Thank you for reminding us, oh wise and wonderful one.
They tried to change the re-calc. before and many people revolted and the game re-considered the time change.
People keep mentioning that, but it wasn't a change to the number of recalcs, merely a change in the single recalc timing. They moved it to 8 AM instead of 8 PM. And that messed with the mass practice of having everyone battle at the same time. Probably would have solved the lag problem if they had left it there and guilds would have adapted, just like they will if/when this change is implemented.

One other thing. People here keep bashing the 4 hour recalc, but they are still investigating that option, so they may make changes to how it is implemented if they see good ideas for how better to implement it. So it would be much more helpful to actually post ideas about how to make the proposed changes better rather than highly repetitive, non-productive predictions of GvG doom.
 

DeletedUser30312

Yes, given the discussion on the 4 hour recalc, they might be considering different times. That's why the updated announcement doesn't have them adjusting recalc right away.
 

DeletedUser33417

A reset every 4 hours is insane, 8 hours or 12 hours would be better.
 

DeletedUser37581

One thing seems certain - a 4 hour reset will completely shake up the way GvG is done. The people who prefer the status quo will hate it. The people who want to see things shaken up a bit (or a lot) will embrace it.
 

DeletedUser10789

Sorry, we didn't realize that once you decreed something it was set in stone. We shall immediately consign that subject to the taboo list and never speak of it again. Thank you for reminding us, oh wise and wonderful one.

People keep mentioning that, but it wasn't a change to the number of recalcs, merely a change in the single recalc timing. They moved it to 8 AM instead of 8 PM. And that messed with the mass practice of having everyone battle at the same time. Probably would have solved the lag problem if they had left it there and guilds would have adapted, just like they will if/when this change is implemented.

One other thing. People here keep bashing the 4 hour recalc, but they are still investigating that option, so they may make changes to how it is implemented if they see good ideas for how better to implement it. So it would be much more helpful to actually post ideas about how to make the proposed changes better rather than highly repetitive, non-productive predictions of GvG doom.

Really.? You actually believe that anything we post here they will implement.? In fact, would you like me to explain to you and you should this, how this works.? Someone here, like a Mod or Community leader, makes notes and composes them into an overall description of the feedback and then it is sent over to Germany. Where it goes from there, is anyone's guess. But that is the process and unless someone here of clout decides something is worth sharing it may get sent over to Germany for a review.

Also, if you think changing the re-calc. time from 8am to 8pm and then back is just a single re-calc timing issue. I want you to re-read what you wrote. "And that messed with the mass practice of having everyone battle at the same time." Those are your own words and you are therefore admitting that 1. a single re-calc time would garner the most participation of guilds. and 2. any number, outside of 1 re-calc. time would then therefore hinder and mess up said participation levels of guilds. That said, your own words only re-enforce the reason why it was and is ONLY ONE re-calc. and at 8:03pm est.

Additionally, there have been many many suggestions that have come before this forums and many have gone the way of the recycle bin. Some ideas here are actually very good, because some smart players have well thought out ideas and proposals. Some not so much, but look at the proposal section for clarification. Now to this point, it is HORRIBLE. One simple idea, FIX THE SERVERS.....Simple solution right.? Allow for more capacity that will actually handle the load that is placed on it at re-calc. For many, re-calc. is their favorite time of the day for the game. Not 4 or 6 other times during the day, BUT that one. Also, note after re-calc. like 15-20 minutes thereafter re-calc. and notice all the smack talk in global on the worlds. At least H world has it and you use to play in H world Longshanks. In fact, you knew me there too. Pops, good to see you posting buddy.....Come to H world for some fun. You should see what's going on there now. So, was that so hard a very simple and easy solution. ? Why bother messing up something that is working. Fixing the lag with better capacity would eliminate the lag issues. If you want more idea, just nuke the points that a Champ gives a player and problem solved. The game COULD, once a guild captures a sector and then drops it, IN AA, that sector would be filled with Spears. This would totally eliminate farming in AA and who would want to fight a full sector of spears and get no points. Plus that would be a very interesting wrinkle to GvG. And for the rest of the ages, it could be filled with all rogues. Talk about a game changer and actually having guilds fight over something. Low troops with little to no point value and forcing a guild to defend sectors instead of stocking them and playing the blocking game, WOW, game changer there. There are just a few ideas for you that would never happen, as they are too simple of solutions. :)
 

DeletedUser

Also, if you think changing the re-calc. time from 8am to 8pm and then back is just a single re-calc timing issue. I want you to re-read what you wrote. "And that messed with the mass practice of having everyone battle at the same time." Those are your own words and you are therefore admitting that 1. a single re-calc time would garner the most participation of guilds. and 2. any number, outside of 1 re-calc. time would then therefore hinder and mess up said participation levels of guilds.
No, I am not therefore admitting those two things. A single recalc time has proven only that those few who participate in GvG do so almost exclusively at that time by their own choice. In fact, the way that one recalc time has affected the timing of guild activity in GvG has prevented many, many players from participating in GvG. I know that the current recalc time has never been convenient to most players due to time zones, and if you can't fight then it's extremely frustrating to be part of a GvG-focused guild. I've tried many times. As for #2, changing the recalc time so guilds can't focus their activity on one brief moment of the day will open up GvG to many players who haven't been able to participate because of that one brief focus of activity. That's just common sense. Sure, if the present recalc time is convenient to you, you don't want it changed. But people who play these servers don't all come from one time zone.

Allow for more capacity that will actually handle the load that is placed on it at re-calc.
This is such a red herring. There is no business in the world that designs its capacity based on maximum usage. Whether it is employee scheduling, building size, vehicle fleet, or whatever. It just isn't good economics to pay for maximum anything based solely on peak usage times and then have much of it sit unused most of the time. Lag is attributable to one thing and one thing only, recalc "forcing" players to all fight at the same exact time. Spread that out through the day and most of the lag issues go away. Does that mess with the status quo of the large, established GvG guilds? Yes. Is that bad for the game? Emphatically no. Because the status quo has resulted in relatively small GvG participation in comparison to the overall number of active players. And that's not just my opinion, that's what Inno has stated.
Why bother messing up something that is working. Fixing the lag with better capacity would eliminate the lag issues.
? If it's working, then there's no issue to fix. If there's an issue to fix, then it's not working. That's just simple logic.
 

DeletedUser40780

No, I am not therefore admitting those two things. A single recalc time has proven only that those few who participate in GvG do so almost exclusively at that time by their own choice. In fact, the way that one recalc time has affected the timing of guild activity in GvG has prevented many, many players from participating in GvG. I know that the current recalc time has never been convenient to most players due to time zones, and if you can't fight then it's extremely frustrating to be part of a GvG-focused guild. I've tried many times. As for #2, changing the recalc time so guilds can't focus their activity on one brief moment of the day will open up GvG to many players who haven't been able to participate because of that one brief focus of activity. That's just common sense. Sure, if the present recalc time is convenient to you, you don't want it changed. But people who play these servers don't all come from one time zone.
Does that mess with the status quo of the large, established GvG guilds? Yes. Is that bad for the game? Emphatically no. Because the status quo has resulted in relatively small GvG participation in comparison to the overall number of active players. And that's not just my opinion, that's what Inno has stated.
? If it's working, then there's no issue to fix. If there's an issue to fix, then it's not working. That's just simple logic.

You don't do gvg enough to understand how things work for top GvG guilds imo. Heck, even a lot of players in those guilds that actually gvg don't understand the tactics etc. It really takes the gvg leaders that are actually doing the planning to understand the tactics, attendance issues, etc.

It's like saying b/c someone sold something on eBay or made a little website, they can advise amazon about eCommerce.

I already said it once, but it's worth repeating. There are plenty of opportunities outside of recalc for players to fight. If they choose to fight the top guilds that bubble/"put up a wall" that's their choice. More recalc times will not increase participation over the course of 3-6 months. There might be a quick flurry until everyone is out of goods/units and/or realize it's pointless for most guilds b/c everything flips so fast.... After that, nada. I've talked with a couple dozen or more gvg leaders from different guilds, different sizes, different servers, different rankings. It's obvious to all of us how unhealthy this is going to be for those that actually gvg right now.

Good leaders will get their off-hours players involved in other ways. Period. Simple. If you try and can't get involved, either your gvg leader is not creative or you don't know what you're doing. Join a new guild. Start a ghost. Find a different enemy to attack.

This 4hr change is about overthrowing top guilds. You said it yourself. I'm telling you from experience, this is going to be the wrong fix for accomplishing that goal in most cases.

This is such a red herring. There is no business in the world that designs its capacity based on maximum usage. Whether it is employee scheduling, building size, vehicle fleet, or whatever. It just isn't good economics to pay for maximum anything based solely on peak usage times and then have much of it sit unused most of the time. Lag is attributable to one thing and one thing only, recalc "forcing" players to all fight at the same exact time. Spread that out through the day and most of the lag issues go away.

You could not be more mistaken about this. I can tell you without question businesses DO design based on max usage. I can say that from real-world experience - not just classroom theory, stoner pontificating, or discussing stuff on forums. In fact, a lot only give a crap about max usage cases because that's when they win or lose business to their competitors. Do you want data about why it's so important? Here's a start (with respect to eCommerce/websites): https://neilpatel.com/blog/loading-time/

If someone expects a full website to load in under 2 seconds, we damn well expect to be able to open a sector in less than 2 seconds. During peak use, 10 seconds is definitely not exaggerating (30-40 seconds probably is excessive, but it sure feels that long when you watch shields and swords flying). That's why elastic computing and cloud hosting solutions like AWS are so popular among large successful businesses.

Performance testing is a huge part of having successful products...
https://www.thinksys.com/qa-testing/5-types-performance-testing-you-need-to-know/

Spreading the fighting throughout the day, but still having shields all drop at the same time will only have the effect of burning players out and making them quit playing. For the "main recalc" - top guilds will still show in force until they're too fed up with a poor product. There will still be peak usage lag issues.

Now, if shields drop staggered at different times throughout the day (rolling resets), that would help ease peak load without reducing the player base.

I doubt the primary issue is the servers though. I usually have a good ping even at recalc. I hate to say it, but the issue is more likely in the code itself. Optimizing code can cut load times by huge amounts. I've seen application processing time drop from 30 min to 5 min with rewritten/optimized code (it took 6 months and a badass dev to fix the code though). Inno has mentioned several times that FE/AA was thought to be the end of the game. It's pretty clear GvG improvements have been on the back burner. I recently came to understand that the developer who was largely responsible for GvG passed away suddenly (there's a building created in his honor) just before FE was rolling out. Correlation or causation? Impossible to know on our end. Kind of hints that the old codebase might not have been optimized for the current demand. Good problem to have as long as it gets fixed.

Participation will only increase if players in non-gvg guilds start becoming interested in GvG. There's not much room to increase the participation of players in GvG guilds without adding a mobile version. No point in getting more participation if it's just going to sink a product that cannot handle max load.
 
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DeletedUser

You don't do gvg enough to understand how things work for top GvG guilds imo. Heck, even a lot of players in those guilds that actually gvg don't understand the tactics etc. It really takes the gvg leaders that are actually doing the planning to understand the tactics, attendance issues, etc.
This is such hogwash, and frankly I'm tired of hearing it. Like there's some secret handshake or something before you're accepted into the "GvG Club". :rolleyes:
Good leaders will get their off-hours players involved in other ways. Period. Simple. If you try and can't get involved, either your gvg leader is not creative or you don't know what you're doing.
Also hogwash. If you're a fighter and you can't be on at recalc, a GvG guild has little use for you. And it is very frustrating. Because they have all these rules about who you can attack and where you can attack, but they won't cooperate to actually let you attack except in rare circumstances. I have been in many GvG guilds from the top of the rankings on down over the 4 years I've played, and they're all the same when it comes to fighters that can't be on at recalc. They're great if you're available at 8:00 PM Eastern time, but if not, you're out of luck. That's from 4 years experience on multiple worlds with multiple guilds, most of which you would consider well run guilds.
You could not be more mistaken about this. I can tell you without question businesses DO design based on max usage. I can say that from real-world experience - not just classroom theory, stoner pontificating, or discussing stuff on forums.
Yeah, I have real world experience, too (over 40 years), and I know of no business I have ever been connected with in any way that bases their day to day business on max usage. And that's service industry, retail industry, business offices, health care, sports, entertainment, transportation. All of them. If they designed for max usage, there would never be lines at airports. You run a business day to day based on max usage times and you'll be out of business pronto. Most businesses nowadays base their personnel and facilities based on how little of each they can get by with, not based on maximum business periods.
I recently came to understand that the developer who was largely responsible for GvG passed away suddenly (there's a building created in his honor) just before FE was rolling out. Correlation or causation? Impossible to know on our end.
So after saying other players lack the knowledge necessary to have an opinion on GvG, you fess up to not even knowing about Anwar. Not impossible to know on our end. It is common knowledge that GvG was Anwar's baby, and his passing is the main reason GvG has languished.
Participation will only increase if players in non-gvg guilds start becoming interested in GvG.
This is about the only accurate thing you said.
There's not much room to increase the participation of players in GvG guilds without adding a mobile version.
Which they won't do.
No point in getting more participation if it's just going to sink a product that cannot handle max load.
The key isn't to increase capacity, the key is to even out the load over the day. The only reason GvGers can't see that is because they're married to the idea of massive fighting once a day at recalc. Spreading out the fighting is the only way to help GvG lag and participation. Lag because not having everyone on at once enables the servers/connections to handle the load. Participation because players in different time zones or on different schedules would then be able to actively participate in the fighting in GvG.

Incidentally, thinking that someone is going to be enthusiastic long-term about GvG when they can only provide goods and/or DAs instead of fight because of the recalc schedule is something only short-sighted GvG fighters would believe.
 

DeletedUser30312

Like there's some secret handshake or something before you're accepted into the "GvG Club". :rolleyes:

I thought they had a decoder ring. :D

Incidentally, thinking that someone is going to be enthusiastic long-term about GvG when they can only provide goods and/or DAs instead of fight because of the recalc schedule is something only short-sighted GvG fighters would believe.

I know I wouldn't bother with such a guild for long.
 

DeletedUser40780

This is such hogwash, and frankly I'm tired of hearing it. Like there's some secret handshake or something before you're accepted into the "GvG Club". :rolleyes:
....
So after saying other players lack the knowledge necessary to have an opinion on GvG, you fess up to not even knowing about Anwar. Not impossible to know on our end. It is common knowledge that GvG was Anwar's baby, and his passing is the main reason GvG has languished.

This is exactly my point. You and others think you are expert enough in GvG to know how to fix the issues because you've been on the forums and know the history, but you don't even participate with the product in a meaningful way.

How does knowing about Anwar help me to better asses what needs to be improved today? I guess it does make it clear the code is the top issue because it was not written to account for the volume of players using the product. It needs to be improved (no disrespect to Anwar's coding, of course). Heck, we could even just cut straight to the point - without fixing the code, it's still going to be buggy and have tons of issues, and any changes are just lipstick on a pig.

Good leaders will get their off-hours players involved in other ways. Period. Simple. If you try and can't get involved, either your gvg leader is not creative or you don't know what you're doing. Join a new guild. Start a ghost. Find a different enemy to attack.

What do you think is going to happen when guilds are burning up resources at up to 3-6x the rate they are now? Do you think leaders are going to let you off your artificial leash so you can go burn up a bunch of tiles? Do you think they are going to start letting your attack all your friends?

Yeah, I have real world experience, too (over 40 years), and I know of no business I have ever been connected with in any way that bases their day to day business on max usage. And that's service industry, retail industry, business offices, health care, sports, entertainment, transportation. All of them. If they designed for max usage, there would never be lines at airports. You run a business day to day based on max usage times and you'll be out of business pronto. Most businesses nowadays base their personnel and facilities based on how little of each they can get by with, not based on maximum business periods.

Oh, I see where we're crossing lines. :)

You're talking about max usage including outliers. I'm talking about max expected usage.

Of course, you make compromises. Every business is going to be able to tolerate various wait times. Look at retail - There might be 12 registers that CAN be opened during max traffic. Most of the time only 3-4 are open. Obviously, they aren't going to have 12 registers open when there's no one in the store. For Black Friday, they change their instore process to accommodate more customers, but that's an outlier. Customers are willing to accept outliers as long as slow is not the norm. If you had to wait that long every time you went to the store, you'd quit going there. (i.e. find another game)

Same with airports. They open up more checkpoints when more people are traveling. And most airports have changed their security to accommodate their volume of travelers. Yes, peak travel days back up, but those are outliers. (Obviously, some airports can't accommodate the number of travelers well, and travelers avoid them when possible. There are also limited options with airports, so travelers have a higher tolerance to wait times.)

We're not talking about outlier max usage with Recalc. We're talking about regular rush hour. It's the day-to-day high usage case. It's a predictable use case. And yes, ALL businesses (should) plan for their daily max use, or they fail. If the lag issues only occurred once in a while, the player base would get over it. When it's every night or almost every night, players get pissed off and quit. The lag issues that we're talking about are well within the range of what a business should plan for. It's inexcusable to not plan for the current nightly usage.

I love seeing the forum warriors drowning out the voices of reason behind the glorious leadership of their favorite snarky mod. Thanks for helping facilitate discussion. I'll leave the politics to the politicians. You win again :)
 

DeletedUser38319

Yeah, I have real world experience, too (over 40 years)
Oh, really? I would love to have your 40 years of internet insight. Please, do share!

This is such hogwash, and frankly I'm tired of hearing it. Like there's some secret handshake or something before you're accepted into the "GvG Club".
Glad to know other people's opinion matters and that this isn't just a false front.
 

DeletedUser38319

Personally, I am fine with the changes. I don't think they will improve the gvg experience, but I have no issue with them. However, this entire "discussion" seems pointless as mods are just telling people they are wrong instead of facilitating actual open discussion.

Inno would get more respect from some of us if it were to just say, "I hear you, but that isn't something we are willing to do" or "that makes sense but we are doing it anyway" instead of pretending that the things people are saying aren't true.
 
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