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GvG Lag - "tile 38,75"

DeletedUser

Myself I think there is a lot of other issues that are as important as lag time that also need fixing. With the current style of bubbling tiles it pretty much forces all activities to occur at re-calc time. I think that if Inno would address this issue it would improve the play ability of lag time issues we have.

Something as simple as changing the protection cycle timing could fix this. Maybe give a newly taken tile a few hours of bubble protection, then it could drop randomly over the next 16 hr or something, any time before or after the next calculation period. And that calc. period is just for daily points and allowing one HQ move/24hr it has nothing to do with resetting tiles protection cycle.

This would make things way more realistic in terms of the way a battle or war would progress. Instead of one big action battle every 24hr.
I think that is a great idea. And maybe so that the bubbles wouldn't drop during recalc, they could turn off access to GvG for 5-30 minutes each day while recalc takes place. Kind of like they do with PvP towers and GE. During wars throughout the ages they've had temporary truces for various reasons, from holiday/religious observances to retrieving the dead/wounded from the battlefield, and this could be considered something like that.
 

DeletedUser6219

It could well be that the Carnival Event or Settlements or something else may have triggered an increase in lag/issues at recalc.

That happens also, but AGAIN, I'm not referring to lag issues @ recalc, and would appreciate it if these are not conflated. I feel it's important at this point to decouple what I suspect are problems which are always present and @ low server load from those @ high load and peak times as well as during events, both in the conversations in forums like this, and in bug reports, because we cannot have an honest dialogue as to the fate of GvG in the long term, nor short term feasible solutions to address acute problems, between the company's interests and players interests, when there is confusion as to what the problems and complaints are. athena9 posted a list here of issues which I have seen independent of time of day and when events are not running. YES, we all know that the events are not the culprit... another straw man to knock down. I'm not blaming the events.

So, let's try and ISOLATE the issue shall we? Autobattle was introduced, YES... Great milestone there, and I'll even go so far as to argue in Inno's favor that by increasing the speed at which battles can occur, and raising the throughput, you're also raising the bar on customer expectation. and naïve users might complain about lag even though compared with pre-autobattle, they're getting more fights in... ok great... but the problems I just posted about, the ones do appear to have some kind of relationship with the symptoms Athena listed for you. I understand that autobattle is creating a larger load, just as you put forth, so it stands to reason that behaviors manifest at a much lower threshold now, absolutely... but here's the rub: Autobattle was running perfectly fine for a good length of time with events starting and stopping, and yet these problems did not yet exist... they were introduced more recently! I don't know if you hit some critical threshold in load which manifested new behaviors, as I've not been involved with your engineers and in testing on your end, but I know what I see on my end, and it's a change above and beyond the time of autobattle's introduction over a span of multiple months and events. I did not come here to post until the more recent problems that have been described. Was there some other straw that broke a camel's back? Perhaps, but it looks like a bug to me. Members in our guilds think the other side is cheating with bots or scripts all the time, too. I caution against filing bug reports too quickly into the bin of traditional background noise on a tired issue. It's in the company's best interest to fix low hanging fruit rather than dwell on intractable issues. Like I said, this is more like autumn 2018 introduction. There's a few she didn't include in her list, like time desynchronization between client and server. For me, anyway, this was not happening before... yet autobattle and events were happening. I have seen it long ago, but you simply reload your browser on rare occasion it occurs, but this is now something chronic which can affect other aspects of the game. For example, you go to double-dip on a plunder and instead you default to pol/mot on the building instead of the first plunder because your local clock is still counting down to reset your 24h action, but the server clock is real time. I've seen gaps as wide as 3 full minutes you can drive a truck through, quite possibly related to GvG.


On the more long term problems, and on the economic reality of extending GvG lifespan with 0 or negligible capital investment, and fewer complaints, grab the low hanging fruit if there are bugfixes to be made, but yes at some point you may need to make unpopular decisions, but maybe we have an honest stakeholders meeting and make it a popular one, and not by PR trickery, but by delivering a GvG 2 or something like that for mobile also. If you are sincere that GvG is a small, or insignificant part of the product, though I may caution as to indirect relationships, why define guild rank, something so central to goal oriented behavior and therefore reason to spend diamonds, build your city, etc, have the entire metric of a "score" all boil down to one insignificant part of the game you've made an economic decision to no longer support? You appear to be in contradiction there and can't have it both ways without undue strife. That's a whole new thread in and of itself.


One last thing... Please let's all try not to confuse changing reset time with decoupling tile protection @ server reset on tiles any more. One is a radical game mechanic change, the other is window dressing in ignorance of the core issue, which is the NEED for players to be on in GvG regardless of when that time is, be it 1, 2, 3, 4, etc... there's a need to be on then, hence more traffic. (granted you can avoid (internet* rush hour globally by doing so and cause and tweak how many users will re-arrange their personal schedules). Neither is a "real" fix from my perspective, but if you wanna talk minimal capital investment and keeping the patient alive on life support, let's at least be honest there. I will say that you might have more luck getting away with the tile decoupling and it might make more sense to do that now given the situation, but I'm not in favor of it. Just my opinion, but simply changing your metrics on global guild rank might be a smarter decision for the company, but its another death pang for GvG mk 1. Some of us still remember the old days before server clock and tile protections :)
 

DeletedUser6219

Bug #1 Siege Box not turning orange so it doesn't allow us to resiege.
Bug #2 Defense Boxes not turning orange so it doesn't allow us to get in defense fills in between seiges.
Bug #3 Repeated Clicking to get into a tile.
Bug #4 Bubbles not going away after reset timer is done.
Bug #5 Siege Swords not appearing.
Bug #6 Bouncing Shield shows multiple times
Bug #7 Reset timer takes over 2 minutes
Bug #8 Timing Issues for no reason (FYI those have started happening when adding large amount of fps to a GB)


That's Athena's bug list btw... and this is tied in directly with desynch of the client.

Not all are real bugs, but #2 is RECENT and I'm under the impression that it is omnipresent... if you are an engineer who knows otherwise, please correct me if I'm wrong there, but it does not appear tied to events or server load.. you just need about 3vs3 fighting over the same tile, maybe even less than that!, but this is a weak anecdotal claim for me to make in the absence of a controlled test.

There's another one she did not list where the client corrupts in such a way that you must completely exit the browser and reload from scratch before being able to place a siege. This is extremely rare, as I have only had it happen once, but 2 others mentioned it to me.

I also caught a couple more posts in this thread, and now feel the need to clarify my previous post position as follows: I've not seen a tile protection clock decoupling proposal yet which was well rounded in terms of game design and impacts, but that's not to say one does not exist. Necessity is the mother of invention, and in the absence of something more along the lines of Dylan's calls for infrastructure, and with the cry for change to fix these issues, there may be more wiggle room on what passes for implementation than in the past.
 

DeletedUser

have the entire metric of a "score" all boil down to one insignificant part of the game you've made an economic decision to no longer support? You appear to be in contradiction there and can't have it both ways without undue strife. That's a whole new thread in and of itself.
That is one thing I don't understand myself. It makes no sense at all to have global guild rankings so dependent on an aspect of the game that the vast majority either can't or don't participate in.

I appreciate the time and effort you took to give a comprehensive view from your perspective. Clearly there are many issues with GvG, some associated with recalc crowding and some not. As Forum moderators, for the most part we have no more idea what Inno is thinking as far as GvG's future than you do. I wish we did. It would be less frustrating for everyone if we had at least an idea of where they're headed. Given that so many devoted players love the GvG feature, I would hope that at some point they either really fix the current model, or replace it with a new model that everyone can participate in, and that preserves what is good about the current model. None of us can really do anything but speculate, and I honestly don't know how much it helps to post here, or file bug report tickets in game. About all I can say for sure is that they seem to know that there are major problems, and they have given occasional signs that they have something in mind for GvG. Like I said, frustrating for everyone.
 

DeletedUser33179

... Autobattle was running perfectly fine for a good length of time with events starting and stopping, and yet these problems did not yet exist... they were introduced more recently! I don't know if you hit some critical threshold in load which manifested new behaviors, as I've not been involved with your engineers and in testing on your end, but I know what I see on my end, and it's a change above and beyond the time of autobattle's introduction over a span of multiple months and events. I did not come here to post until the more recent problems that have been described. Was there some other straw that broke a camel's back? Perhaps, but it looks like a bug to me. Members in our guilds think the other side is cheating with bots or scripts all the time, too. I caution against filing bug reports too quickly into the bin of traditional background noise on a tired issue. It's in the company's best interest to fix low hanging fruit rather than dwell on intractable issues. Like I said, this is more like autumn 2018 introduction. There's a few she didn't include in her list, like time desynchronization between client and server. For me, anyway, this was not happening before... yet autobattle and events were happening.
...


HTML5 went live in mid-June 2018, & is the subject of ongoing, repeated improvements/tweaks. That corresponds with around the time (or just prior) to your feeling that more pronounced GvG issues began cropping up.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
It makes no sense at all to have global guild rankings so dependent on an aspect of the game that the vast majority either can't or don't participate in.
Another reason a new GvG available to all makes the most sense. As more and more guilds reach level 75, there's also increasing requests to add new levels to guild rank. Another aspect of guild ranking that I'd like to see addressed is some way for guild members who prefer to farm to also contribute points to guild ranking beyond just GE. None of this makes much sense to address piecemeal. Inno and the game would be better served with a comprehensive solution that deals with all these issues at once.

I would also be very surprised if Inno is making 0 or negligible capital investments in GvG as @Warvenya suggests. While it's clear they're not reinvesting into the current GvG system, that doesn't suggest Inno isn't currently making large capital investments into GvG. Unless someone is a stockholder of the company, they are not a stakeholder in the company and Inno doesn't owe anyone beyond their own leadership answers about what's going on. It makes no sense to tell us anything about anything until Inno is ready to go live with something on Beta.
 

DeletedUser20396

Being categorized as a strategy game means this topic should be top priority. The Quests, GE and other filler materials are okay. I wouldn't consider any of that very strategy based. It's just more of a to do list for personal growth. And those things alone would never keep the attention of a true marathon gamer. The kind that will spend hundreds of dollars without having true ownership of anything. Playing against another real person or groups of real people in "real time" is what makes the battling for your empire fun! The problem is the Lag takes away the "real time" aspect of a war game. Which makes the experience of GvG very unenjoyable and unrealistic. We've all thought "why am I wasting my time with this!" As a result from this broken cornerstone of the game.

If this game becomes a farming and to do list game I'm out. All Empires fight! It's in the name of the game, so make it the best battle platform around and you won't have to spend all of our money on your advertising. Since your player retention rates will dramatically increase and overall game rating will be top notch. Which speaks for itself without the need for so many of the FoE commercials that are seen on TV.

We know you can do it INNO :) It's time! Git r done!!
 

DeletedUser6219

I'm only speaking for myself, but I don't need to be told that the leaders of GvG guilds do much more in planning and such (mostly before actually doing GvG), but the actual GvG fighting itself is actually less demanding than many GE battles. For one thing, you never face two-wave armies. For another, you never face over a 75% boost. Usually much less, and sometimes zero boost. And you don't know which of the DAs you're going to face in each battle, but with your overwhelming boost advantage that is irrelevant. So for most of the GvG participants (unless you include the whole guild in your planning sessions) there is little more than clicking auto over and over.

Let me help you out on this. You've no idea where the actual challenge is. It's not at the level of fighting the armies, it's primarily at the level of the daily reset when tiles come off protection, tile mechanics, and at having a dozen or more members execute orders in lock step across multiple maps, and be capable of adapting in real time to multiple opponents doing the same thing in a the smallest bottleneck possible. There's secondary operations until the next reset also. The whole guild is not involved in planning. Their role is to fill in the gaps in the execution of orders handed down... even for the most lowly automata smashing auto, there's skill involved at the level of adaptation and adjustment... (what map, what tile, when, and sometimes on the order of seconds)... although most of it is skill at wrestling the interface and lag. What you think should be the challenging part IS reduced to a single click, but the entire game is at the meta level with the interface and with coordination and adaptation in a fast paced high pressure environment, but only for top guilds, which is an even smaller minority of players. Planning helps a lot, but that's lessened as you build and maintain a well oiled machine with trained individuals. That's also why the bugs on athena's list are more game breaking than casual GvGers comprehend. There's a meta game to be played, even IF you are a mere fighter with loading and unloading your troops, and knowing what to use, managing your city to support a larger effort and logistics involved... probably beyond what the original writer intended. It's a bit more interface intensive than merely hitting auto and letting things die... and yes, these are all things which generate demand for diamonds, what I alluded to before regarding risk assessment on discontinuation of support. These are indirect relationships, as in an ecosystem producing revenue, which is more than simply "honoring" aging diamond founders. It's cheesy and awkward so far as games go on skillset, though. We might even make the case that if you were to remove lag from the game completely at this point, you'd break the GvG game and ppl would complain.. pollution and ecology share a similar relationship.

Now all that being said, I'm still objective about removing it from the game if it really makes no economic sense to maintain (EXTINCTION)... well almost... I'll confess I lean towards moving forward to something better or different to replace it (ok so bees won't pollinate, so we'll substitute for wasps or human laborers) to bring in more money, but I'll advocate for giving the guild or the customer what they want too. I'm here to help represent their views and promote understanding as much as my own. GE was not a bad attempt, but there's an element of fire it's missing. Maybe something more intense than GE, but also less dominating with respect to global rankings is appropriate.
 
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DeletedUser

And those things alone would never keep the attention of a true marathon gamer. The kind that will spend hundreds of dollars without having true ownership of anything. Playing against another real person or groups of real people in "real time" is what makes the battling for your empire fun!
There are many, many players that spend a lot of money without ever touching GvG. Part of the disconnect here is that serious GvGers are mostly a closed community within the game that have no concept of the vast majority of FoE players who thoroughly enjoy the rest of the game, and are perfectly content to never touch GvG. And that these other players actually do spend a lot of money on those other parts of the game.
Let me help you out on this. You've no idea where the actual challenge is
You were doing so well, and then you had to get condescending. Same old same old.
 

DeletedUser38345

One last thing... Please let's all try not to confuse changing reset time with decoupling tile protection @ server reset on tiles any more. One is a radical game mechanic change, the other is window dressing in ignorance of the core issue,


War I agree with you about your posts apart from this sentence.

The things you said about being in command of a large crack group of fighters when battling and the enemy is online too is exhilarating to say the least. And an extremely dynamic situation you describe so well. And obviously that comes from the huge amount of experience you have at running GvG battles.

However please consider a lot of people would love to participate more in GvG unfortunatly the timing around re-calc seems to work out to dinner time for half the continent. Adjusting protection @ reset time with some kind of random timing would quickly result in a flowing dynamic battle front. If advancement is to fast like in the old days i hear about the length of the random time can be adjusted to compensate for that. I totally agree that this is a radical mechanical change in the way things will operate on GvG, And personally from my perspective I think that is something that would be beneficial.

In the end the net result is that there would be a way more even traffic load on the servers, And i think you would see increased participation in GvG. Hence more enjoyment for all.
 

DeletedUser37820

Another reason a new GvG available to all makes the most sense. As more and more guilds reach level 75, there's also increasing requests to add new levels to guild rank. Another aspect of guild ranking that I'd like to see addressed is some way for guild members who prefer to farm to also contribute points to guild ranking beyond just GE. None of this makes much sense to address piecemeal. Inno and the game would be better served with a comprehensive solution that deals with all these issues at once.

I would also be very surprised if Inno is making 0 or negligible capital investments in GvG as @Warvenya suggests. While it's clear they're not reinvesting into the current GvG system, that doesn't suggest Inno isn't currently making large capital investments into GvG. Unless someone is a stockholder of the company, they are not a stakeholder in the company and Inno doesn't owe anyone beyond their own leadership answers about what's going on. It makes no sense to tell us anything about anything until Inno is ready to go live with something on Beta.


If they loose a lot of players and spenders that would effect the stockholders...
 

DeletedUser

If they loose a lot of players and spenders that would effect the stockholders...
Honestly, I am not trying to be mean or anything, but you all have to get over the illusion that GvGers are a large % of total players. The days of GvG driving the FoE economic train are long past. I'm not saying that to try to diminish the problems, but approaching the problem from a "we are more important to FoE than anything else" perspective won't get you all anywhere. The best approach is to focus on the good of the game as a whole, because they're obviously not going to prioritize GvG over everything else. That's clearly evident even to the most casual observer.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
Still no plan. Been listening to the live stream and they just addressed GvG again. Once more they said it's on their radar, once more said GvG was important, acknowledged a very dedicated GvG base especially among end-game players. However, it is also clear from their response that they still have no firm plans, have yet to move beyond blue sky, have yet to nail anything down, and appear no where close programming anything new. They also made mention that the idea of new maps and other ways of utilizing post FE age guild goods was all tied up in that. In the December live chat, they also mentioned more guild levels as being a part of the overhaul planning process as well.

Once again, I was disappointed by the answer, I was hoping to hear something about #GvGforAll.:(

The best they could give us is was the same old, "Hope to have an announcement soon."

On the bright side, they did say that Egyptians will invade Settlements soon. At least we have that to look forward to in the meantime.:)
 
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cton2.forge

Active Member
keeping the patient alive on life support

Please amend your post with a table of contents and an index. For the love of all that is holy....

I like vegetables. that said I'd say tldr but I did read it I just couldn't find a point, just complaining. That said, I like vegetables (see how I ended my long-winded statement with my main point, also called a conclusion)
 

vimesfan

New Member
If they nix GvG, will the game name be changed to Forge of Farmers? To me, creating an empire is tied up very intimately with GvG.

And pulling together as a guild to gain and maintain land on the maps is a very unifying thing for members in a guild, which also leads to greater growth in our cities. In my mind that empire I am forging is a united, strong, well-leveled guild.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
If they nix GvG, will the game name be changed to Forge of Farmers?
Lol, aren't you the comedian. FAIL!
To me, creating an empire is tied up very intimately with GvG. In my mind that empire I am forging is a united, strong, well-leveled guild.
Okay, sounds good, but it's not. Not that you need to change your mind. You can be wrong if you want to.

em·pire /ˈemˌpī(ə)r/
noun

1. an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority, formerly especially an emperor or empress. "the Roman Empire"
synonyms: kingdom, realm, domain, territory, province;

2. a large commercial organization owned or controlled by one person or group. "her business empire grew"
synonyms: organization, corporation, multinational, conglomerate, consortium, company, business, firm, operation, institution, establishment, body
"a worldwide shipping empire"​

As you can see, neither definition has anything to with military prowess and you can easily forge a "united, strong, well-leveled guild" without GvG.

Besides, who from Inno ever said they were going to nix GvG? Now that the event traffic has died down you don't have enough real GvG problems to complain about anymore? You gotta make stuff up now?
 
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vimesfan

New Member
I'm sorry. Did I step on your toes or something? Knock your drink over? Why this immediate animosity towards me?

1. The Roman Empire did have a lot to do with military prowess.
2. Yes, a united, strong guild is possible without GvG. Getting to the higher levels in the guild, not so much. Leveling up a guild with GE alone is much slower.
3. Now that the event traffic has died down? I placed a siege yesterday evening on a tile (2 hours after recalc) and could neither see that the siege was there nor attack the tile. I had to exit the map to my city and re-enter the map to see the siege and act on it. Yet the log clearly showed I was the one who set the siege on that tile. In the meantime, another couple guild members were able to see the siege and act on it. In other cases I have been on the other side of it where I could see the siege that had been set, but the other guild member who set it could not see and act on it. Trust me. If I were going to make up stuff, I would have been a whole lot more creative than that.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
1. So. An Empire does not require military prowess and Inno could nix GvG and not require a name change. Hence the humor fail.
2. So you agree. A strong unified guild, nothing to do with fighting.
3. See that. There are actual problems to complain about. You didn't have to make stuff up after all.
Trust me. If I were going to make up stuff, I would have been a whole lot more creative than that.
Yet you did and you weren't.:confused:
 

-Athena-

Active Member
I'm sorry. Did I step on your toes or something? Knock your drink over? Why this immediate animosity towards me?

1. The Roman Empire did have a lot to do with military prowess.
2. Yes, a united, strong guild is possible without GvG. Getting to the higher levels in the guild, not so much. Leveling up a guild with GE alone is much slower.
3. Now that the event traffic has died down? I placed a siege yesterday evening on a tile (2 hours after recalc) and could neither see that the siege was there nor attack the tile. I had to exit the map to my city and re-enter the map to see the siege and act on it. Yet the log clearly showed I was the one who set the siege on that tile. In the meantime, another couple guild members were able to see the siege and act on it. In other cases I have been on the other side of it where I could see the siege that had been set, but the other guild member who set it could not see and act on it. Trust me. If I were going to make up stuff, I would have been a whole lot more creative than that.

What world do you play in?
 
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