Life

[DeletedUser]

I have a generally quiet life with the exception of the non-stop arguing that goes on in my house but that is normal..

My room is my sanctuary where i have a telescope to the world. I wake up every day disgusted at how this world we live in works. I respect the men and women of the military. They volunteer to "fight for the country". I seriously hope they aren't buying this line. The last time this country was fought for was WW2.

A group of men founded this country with something different in mind. It was supposed to be a country ran by the people, for the people. They might as well burn the constitution because they are taking away our freedoms every day. The government uses the military to push other countries around and if we see something we want we make damn sure we do our best to pick a fight. Yeah, give us a reason to invade.

We only police other countries that we are getting something out of. Why don't we take care of the real problems? Why don't we stop the genocide in Africa? How about instead of being in Iraq and Afghan for 10 years? We take a look at the problems at home? Why don't we take a look at Mexico? The drug wars are getting ridiculous, every day I see new videos or photos from Mexico of people doing unspeakable things to people.

I kind of contradicted myself there.. Thing is, if we are going to police the world why not actually police something that is worth the attention rather than keeping our troops in a desert fighting rabble?

Then there is religion the biggest joke of all. I'm not sure how a group of men wrote a really good book and just managed to convince the majority of the world's population?

I'm sorry but I can't look at a picture of a baby that had a rag stuffed in its mouth that was thrown so hard into a garbage dump that whoever did it broke its pelvis and completely shattered its leg. I can't watch a video of a baby born without eyes or limbs. I can't look at the world as it is and actually believe there is some being who loves us.

There are people who are tortured for days, held captive for years, starved, killed, maimed, and believe that religion is nothing more than a way to make money. Think of how protected the church is. Do you think for one second they would tell us religion is all bull if something came forward to prove otherwise? The world would collapse.

There would be no more reason to behave, or be good. People would do whatever they wanted without fear of backlash.

Life is disgusting. The world's population is also increasing to about a billion people a year.. The world is going to hell in a hand basket. When the population increases more resources are used. Does anyone realize we are turning lands with fertile soil into deserts, we are running out of fresh water and oil and we are wasting food. Its amazing how much food is wasted in this world.

We over fish the waters, Our technology grows so fast that things are outdated before they even get a little rust on them. Its a shame, a damn shame.. We need to start taking care of the planet soon, start respecting it or its going to take care of us. I'm not a tree hugger or anything but i also believe in not wasting stuff and using everything you take. I believe if you kill something you should eat it.

Everyone is so damn smart, right? Billions of people crapping where they sleep. The world has been around for 4.5 Billion years and we only know about 5 major extinctions. the Universe has been around 14.6 billion years. That's a 10 billion year gap.

Some humans are so hilarious that they actually believe we are the only "intelligent".. I love how that word is used overly.. Compared to civilizations on other planets on the other side of the universe somewhere we are sniveling children not even out of diapers.

Imagine what another race would think of us if they could see our history? I'm sure they would be lining up to visit us. Why? So we could find some way to provoke them into war too? So we could attack them to make people happy? So we could invade their planet for resources? So we could torture, water board and dissect them?

Few things are for sure.. There is no god. The self destruction of the human race is inevitable. The probability of something going horribly wrong and us destroying ourselves by means of some weapon (biological or chemical most likely) IS going to happen. We will eventually drain the Earth of its resources and will be left with nothing but salt water, concrete, desert and all the trash we leave behind.

Hey, the silver lining to all of this is at least we have awesome games to play to keep us totally oblivious.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well, my opinion is that you are just as foolish in saying that there is no god than if you were to say that there is a god, since it can neither be proven nor disproven.

But anyways, what's the question to be debated?

 

[DeletedUser]

Well, my opinion is that you are just as foolish in saying that there is no god than if you were to say that there is a god, since it can neither be proven nor disproven.

Daniel, your not going to seriously tell me that you believe that there is actually 1 being running the whole show? That he actually might exist?

They start off when we are young striking the "FEAR OF GOD" in all of us. "Do the right thing.. Never lie, cheat, steal, sleep with someone's wife.." The list goes on. How can you think that maybe there is a slim chance that there is a god but last winter Aunt Mildred was sucking liquids through a straw, crapping herself and her body being destroyed from lung cancer even though she had never smoked before in her entire life? Some poor kid born with Leukemia?

It reminds me of the stories I was told when i was younger about bunny rabbits an old man with a 0beard who liked children so much he would go down everyone's chimney at christmas time to make magic happen.

But anyways, what's the question to be debated?

Forum description - "Forum: Debate Hall
Discuss & Debate non-FoE topics"

Discuss as in chat about..

I don't debate anything with anyone.. I would much rather talk about a wide range of things with people. Sorry man, its what intelligent people do rather than argue about something.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well, since there isn't anything else that's being discussed..

I am an agnostic, and I am not an atheist for the very same reason that I am not religious: you can not say that there is a god, and conversely you can not say that there is no god. For you to say that the nonexistence of a god is a sure thing mirrors the the certainty that religious people display by saying that there is a god. You seem to think that there can be no god due to all of the suffering that goes on, but that's neither proof nor disproof of a god. And, seeing as how we may never be able to do either of those things, certainty is pretty much out of the question.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yeah, certainty is definitely not in the room on this one. Your right, I can't prove or disprove anything.

The "Men of god" are some of the most wealthy people. Well the leaders of the Vatican are anyways. I would love to see all that information stored in their Vaults that they keep so secret. Why is it a secret? That is the whole purpose of religion right? To spread the word and share the knowledge?

More people have died in the name of religion than ANY other reason. I'm curious how the world would be without religion.. I'd think it would be a hell of a lot worse if there wasn't any. If there is a God I wonder if he watches me and my g/f during alone time. I wonder if him and the angels gather around a big screen and criticize my performance? I mean, if he can send a mile high wave to wipe out 20,364 people in Japan or how about the 230,000 women, children and men who drowned or died from other reason caused by the tsunami.

Oh, the best part is how people suffer before they die too.. People hanging on for dear life, hoping they will pull through and lose their grip suffocating to death from water and whatever else is in it fills their lungs. Or how about drug addict parents who have a toddler that has never done anything wrong to anyone and duct tapes him to a wall.

Then there is child abuse, kidnapping and torture. Children brought up their entire lives only knowing pain.

Yeah man, so far everything is pointing to an extreme possibility that there is a god.. I mean, because he cares about humanity right? Loves us? tells us not to kill or hurt each other yet he can set someone's fate to be that they live an entire life of devotion, believing "god" will help them..

I'm sorry but I watched my Grandmother who believed in god her whole life pray every night, crying at 2 AM every morning while praying because she loved god so much. She lived her entire life barely getting by. She went out of her way to help everyone. Everyone loved her. When she was 70 something, 3 years back she had a procedure done at a hospital, they sent her home weak and she threw up 2 pints of blood then had 3 strokes while in a coma and died.

She lived her entire live barely getting by, she had nothing. She was beaten and abused by my alcoholic grandfather. She never had anything her entire life other than a few cheaply made things to fill her apartment. It seems like the more religious someone is the worse off they are in life.

The world is full of nothing but pain and suffering. Any happiness that happens in a person's life is immediately replaced by a feeling that can only be compared to having your heart ripped out of your chest and people dare to tell me that there MAYBE is a god? Not mad at or going off on you Dan, I'm just stating my side of this.

 

[DeletedUser]

When I was little, I watched the news with my mom. I stopped in middle school, largely because that's when empathy developing further and the people in the TV stopped being abstract concepts.

The fact of the matter is, what should be rarely if ever had any bearing on what is, and that's never going to change. The biggest problems in the world that are at least as old as society are still problems for a reason: there is no good solution. The root of these problems tends to be the nature of reality, which is not likely to change anytime soon.

It's depressing as heck but there's no point in dwelling on things over which you have no control. The best you can do is, well, the best you can do. A great challenge in life that not everyone overcomes is learning to accept this, I think.

As for God, I'm not an atheist because an omnipotent and omniscient God cannot also be omnibenevolent. It is entirely possible to exist and be an enormous jerk at the same time. I'm an atheist due to the complete lack of evidence to support the existence of God. I'm an atheist because there is no evidence that could disprove His existence and that is problematic for reasons I don't feel like getting into. I'm an atheist because things normally attributed to God can also be attributed to things that are backed by science. I don't believe in God because I simply have no reason to.

On an unrelated note, do you need a cyberhug? Not being sarcastic, really. Hugs is an appropriate response to this discussion.

 

[DeletedUser]

On an unrelated note, do you need a cyberhug? Not being sarcastic, really. Hugs is an appropriate response to this discussion.

Ha.. No cyberhugz unless you are a thin blonde with a cute face and nice body

 

[DeletedUser]

Catastrophic, I encourage you to watch a movie called Contact with Jodie Foster. In it, a science minded atheist has conversations with a believer in God, questioning how you can believe in something that can offer no proof what-so-ever of it's existence. Then she has an experience while attempting to contact aliens, one that cannot be verified by any of the many types of monitoring that was done. She finds herself in the same situation that "God believers" find themselves in. Having to try to convince somebody of something you personally experienced without the benefit of proof.

I'm not a Christian, nor a follower of any organized religion, but do have a belief in something greater than myself (or any other life-form). And I know that it comes from a place within me..an internal knowledge..a gut feeling, if you will. I know it and I'll go to my grave knowing it. But I also know I could never convince you of it. Not even with an entire dictionary and millions of people's testimony at my disposal. It would only be words to you. It is something you will either feel at some point in your life..or not. Like love, it is indescribable to someone else...but you know it when you feel it. And it can happen at any time in your life.

 

[DeletedUser]

But I also know I could never convince you of it. Not even with an entire dictionary and millions of people's testimony at my disposal.

2 problems with that.. Everyone who was around that were responsible for writing that book are dead (I think you meant a different kind of book?) Also, even with millions of people they still weren't around for the beginning.

People have such strong feelings about religion because it was pounded into their head when they were kids. They were whipped or beaten from childhood or scolded or whatever whenever they spoke out questioning religion. Every day they went to school since 5 years old they were brain washed into believing what they were told. I know, I was there.. I'm 30 now and remember all the constant religion influence. Parents and grown men scaring people with the threat of the devil.

Then they baptize you without your permission and tell you later on that because you were baptized you will go to hell if you sin. WHICH is great because turns out everything you do is a sin. In order to actually not sin you have to be absolutely perfect which nobody is. So there is NO WAY not to sin. Then if you try your hardest not to sin you go through life absolutely broke and miserable. I know, great right?

I just laugh so hard when i hear a grown person talk so intelligent when i'm talking to them and they bring up religion and how wonderful it is. The story about being saved and finding god is great too. All the wonderful and magical things that happen..

I guess angels and jesus haven't visited in a long time because everyone has an i-phone now and can record everything and post it on youtube.

The church is there for your money and anything else they want. Religion is there to control people.

North Korea is a great example. Their entire population thinks we were responsible for what happened there. They are constantly told how evil Americans are. They believe what they are told because it is passed down through the generations at birth. No information is allowed to any of their citizens.

 

[DeletedUser]

You were born in America, not North Korea, right Catastr0phic? That was pretty fortunate, you weren't forced to suffer... therefore there is a God. Look, I just proved it using the same logic you used to disprove it!

I suppose in this context "discussion" is short for: here's my argument but I'm now allowed to use any amount of logical fallacies I want to substantiate it, since it's not a formal debate? Nice try

 

[DeletedUser]

What, a thin brunette with a cute face and nice body not good enough for you? Fine, I see how it is.

Fleaflicker, if that woman was really science-minded, she would not believe she could communicate with aliens. That is not how science works. At all. Gut feelings are not evidence, either. Feelings are only evidence of what's going on in your head, not necessarily what's going on around you. I don't mean to bash your faith and I appreciate not having your beliefs shoved down my throat, but your reason for believing would not be sufficient for me, or for anyone truly science-minded. If I had an unsubstantiated gut feeling that something is true, I might look into the matter further but it wouldn't convince me of anything.

As for that explanation as to why people still believe in ancient mythology, I'd say it's accurate enough, for the most part. But it doesn't disprove God. Fact is, God cannot be disproved any more than the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Claims that are made about God tend to contradict each other and reality, but that doesn't mean every single one of them is false. It only means some of them are false. As it happens, I have no reason to believe any of them.

EDIT: Furthermore, while religion can and is used to control people, I'm pretty sure its original purpose was to explain things ancient people lack the means to investigate properly, and to provide a sense of control over things they didn't understand but played huge roles in their lives. Why is hasn't in rained in so long? Uhhh, the rain god must be angry. What can we do about it? Sacrifice a goat! Didn't work? Get a bigger goat!

 

[DeletedUser]

Well, my opinion is that you are just as foolish in saying that there is no god than if you were to say that there is a god, since it can neither be proven nor disproven.

But anyways, what's the question to be debated?

The is no such thing as a god or a devil or whatever.
What there is is a bunch of sheep being led around by the scrotum by other sheep who've figured this out and are taking advantage of the weak minded and ignorant. I can prove to you there is no god.
If there was, me and Cataph would be dead and you would never had read this.
The truth is, a lame defense can be construed on the reasons why we weren't killed and how he works in mysterious ways and how he is great and ...GIve me Yo MONEY! in the name of god!... But really, the fact is that there was nothing there but the unadulterated random energy noise, creating more noise and energy by mere entropy behavior. Life exists because entropy demanded it. Energy is alive, matter is alive, and we, matter x energy x time, is also alive, debating this point...
Goodness from one being to another is fact, so is malice.... Stop blaming a deity for your actions and fess up. we are alone in the universe, all sentient beings here, and on mars, and on Gleesa 581 D and wherever they live. But at least were alone together...

 

[DeletedUser]

So then prove to me that a god exists. Or, if you'd like, prove to me that a god doesn't exist. Concrete, scientific, definite proof. Let me save you the trouble by saying that you can't. And because you can't do either of those things, you can't state that there is or isn't a god with such certainty.

People who say that a god exists and how he/she/it spoke to them, guided them, gave them strength, etc. irritate me. But more so than that are the people who can discount the possibility that there may be a god, with such self-assurance. To be so sure about something that you don't know is what gets me. As such, to me, both are just as irrational.

 

[DeletedUser34]

why do people argue over that which in not provable? I mean really? How much more ridiculous can one get. And I doubt anyone has ever changed anyone's mind in a debate forum on the subject.

I believe in god, it is what it is, I look at things through different eyes, again, it is what it is. Do I care nobody can prove it? No...not even a little bit. Do I attempt to prove it? Not on your life. Dumbest argument on a forum I have ever seen...and this particular one has been regurgitated up so many times and still no final answer.....

I do have to say Daniel, I find the "speaking to God" no much different than say a gut feeling, a nudge, something that just tweeks you. I don't actually sit down and have dinner with him

 

[DeletedUser]

God has not been proved and cannot be disproved, end of story. Specific details can be shown to conflict with each other but the possibility of some abstract supernatural entity cannot, all by itself, be disproved.

I'm an atheist because neither evidence nor logic point to God being any more real than the Tooth Fairy. Any atheist that says God can be disproved is failing at logic.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm an atheist because neither evidence nor logic point to God being any more real than the Tooth Fairy. Any atheist that says God can be disproved is failing at logic.

In our previous telepathy thread, we were presented with many anecdotal allegations of telepathy. Although we did not scientifically and conclusively disprove a single one, we still came to the conclusion that telepathy (as described in pop culture) is a load of hocus pocus, since not a single report could be similarly proven either. Why is [the transcendent aspect of] religion exempt from the premise that something must be proven true before it is so?

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm not saying the transcendent aspect of religion is anything other than a load of hocus pocus. I'm saying that utterly failing to support an idea with evidence is not the same thing as disproving it.

God cannot be disproved because by His very nature, there is no possibility of evidence that can be presented that would disprove His existence. You can always make the argument, "Yeah, God put that evidence there to test our faith," or something similar. It is not even remotely convincing, but if God did indeed exist, it would be within His ability to do exactly that.

The fact that there is no possibility of disproof is part of my problem with religion in general.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm not saying the transcendent aspect of religion is anything other than a load of hocus pocus. I'm saying that utterly failing to support an idea with evidence is not the same thing as disproving it.

God cannot be disproved because by His very nature, there is no possibility of evidence that can be presented that would disprove His existence. You can always make the argument, "Yeah, God put that evidence there to test our faith," or something similar. It is not even remotely convincing, but if God did indeed exist, it would be within His ability to do exactly that.

The fact that there is no possibility of disproof is part of my problem with religion in general.

There's a big contradiction there. As a "scientifically minded person", if you believe religion cannot be conclusively disproven, then you cannot also state that transcendent religion is a load of rubbish We're seeing an exception applied again, a blurring of boundaries, as often happens in sensitive issues. People are assumed innocent until proven guilty, telepathy is assumed nonsense until at least one case is definitively proven, God is assumed to be real until disproven... pick the odd one out.

 

[DeletedUser]

So then prove to me that a god exists. Or, if you'd like, prove to me that a god doesn't exist. Concrete, scientific, definite proof. Let me save you the trouble by saying that you can't. And because you can't do either of those things, you can't state that there is or isn't a god with such certainty.

People who say that a god exists and how he/she/it spoke to them, guided them, gave them strength, etc. irritate me. But more so than that are the people who can discount the possibility that there may be a god, with such self-assurance. To be so sure about something that you don't know is what gets me. As such, to me, both are just as irrational.

He doesn't exist because the concept, see if you can handle this, was created by men.
When the inexplicable happened it was attributed to the fancy of the minds of those men, much like plato's republic's story of the men in the cave.
As time progressed, these deities became statues. and symbols.
I for one have followed The Conversation and concluded that over the eons, the proof has gone to the fancy of men.
Science has explained that things are because they are composed of other things.
Religion is the outcome and cul-de-sac of failed fancy. There is no forward into the heavens, only reform. and in some decades or centuries, that reform will bring them to admittance that it is merely superstition.
An all powerful being, if any, would have had to be in a teamster's union, or builder's union to create even a star.
The only force that can be visualized in all things is friction. Sooner or later, entropy wins.
In the absence of a deity, all that is left is things.
If there was a deity, it should make itself manifest, not through the minds of chemically imbalanced people.
If the word of a man who saw a tablet being printed on the mountain can be taken by a people, well
either the people are very stupid, or were in on the scam from the beginning.
History points to the creation of a god through the words of men and the conviction of nut jobs. The council of Nicaea is responsible for the present day "word of god" ( http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html )
..
So, as the words here are unfolding, we seem to keep returning to the fact.
Men are always involved in the creation of anything that has to do with men. (women were property) and as we reach the end of our existence, we realize that a fiction character was created and though fiction, may have influence certain individuals to commit great deeds, as well as atrocities.
Conclusion ; Without needing to waste decades pursuing the point,
God is a children's story that has no more value than Jiminy cricket.

 

[DeletedUser]

The possibility is still there in the same way that if I guess how something works, there is a possibility I am right to some degree, even if the method by which I came to the conclusion is inherently and irredeemably flawed. It's just too small a possibility to have any merit if there are better explanations available. And, oh hey, there are! But there weren't always, and old traditions--like old habits--die hard, traditions that might have been relevant once but no longer are. A bit of conjecture: Considering how few people understand how science works, what evidence is, or how to identify classic fallacies, better explanations often fly straight over people's heads, so they return to old stories that they can understand.

EDIT: ...cul-de-sac?