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Living the end of the American dream.

  • Thread starter DeletedUser2259
  • Start date

DeletedUser3422

Lady, you are right about the first year. I thought the same thing about getting a new tax professional and I did, the result was the same. At the time I bought equipment out right but could only deduct a percentage that year, they added up. At the time I thought it was more important to pay for legal advice than tax advice before I even started. It was great experience building that business, my daughter runs it now.
Hellstromm, you are right about goofing off on the computer can hinder small business productivity. I do hope you are right and I am wrong about taxes and regs, if it is just my incompetence I can handle that. I am glad you had the opportunity to take advantage of all those grants and stuff to help small business and I hope you continue to be successful as a business leader. With your vast knowledge, you must be very successful.
 

DeletedUser

You are right

What you described is (was) the American dream for our parent's generation and before, going back to Concorde. Now, unfortunately, we punish the successful, and reward the lazy. The novel Atlas Shrugged had it best when it described the Producers vs. the Looters and Moochers. As the former is now less than 50%, and the latter more than the majority, and growing, the society you dreamed of is dieing, if not dead. Once inflation outraces foot stamp and quantitative easing printing of money, those who rely on the confiscation of other's wealth by the government will literally take to the streets, just like we see daily in Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. The collapse will be fast, and hard, I am afraid, as we have been able to kick the can down the road due to the benefits of being the world's reserve currency, backed up by the world's strongest military. As both of those are slated for obsolescence, it is not unfathomable for America to end up with armed enclaves fending off the mobs (kind of like a zombie apocalypse with the zombies being the banks propped up with printed, worthless money).


Again, I hope we are both wrong, but I can't see how, unfortunately.
 

DeletedUser

Maybe the problem was too much dreaming the dream and not facing the reality?
 

DeletedUser3

Very good point SLange. In the 80's, the dream was posed by the Reagan administration (a part of the Reaganomics philosophy) to borrow beyond your means... that doing so was good for the economy, etc. This, of course, was a lie and it caused Americans (and, subsequently, Europeans) to fall heavily into debt. This borrow & spend philosophy allowed people to live the dream, up until the economy could no longer support the fantasy. On an individual basis, and on a national level, borrowing and spending beyond one's means has a lot to do with what is presently plaguing U.S. and European economies.

Our present state of distress didn't happen overnight, it started 30 years ago.
 

DeletedUser

Yes, Reagan and Thatcher were in awe of each other and pushed the same theme, this is when Finance was deregulated starting the gamble mentality rot throughout the land. I watched the City boys throwing their champers and Ferraris about on our money, now they burn £50 notes in front of a homeless person. Ownership was pushed like never before, except ownership is a fantasy as it was based on massive debt and a lot of luck. Unless you are a Corporation richer than most countries now who get handed billion pound contracts by the corrupt Governments. The small firms get nothing, banks aren't interested in helping them out. The interesting development is the peer to peer lending which is taking off to bridge that gap. I think I'm in favour of it even though it isn't regulated, where individuals risk their own money to help out small business for a higher return than the rates given for saves due to the risks involved. I can't see a downside to that other than the risk factor.

- - - Updated - - -

Off topic I was very sad to see Hugo Chavez, democratically elected President of Venezuela died. He was a giant of a man who defied the might of the rich to keep the wealth of the oil in his country for the people. Much to the chagrain of the US who supported a coup (due to the country being 4th greatest exporter of Petroleum in the world) which lasted 24 hours before the people reinstated him. News coverage showed him in a different light but the real story was caught on camera.
 

DeletedUser

Reagan and Thatcher were in awe of the individual. Their policies reflected that philosophy, and the result was a decade of almost unprecedented growth around the world in non-socialist countries. They showed the brilliance of the Austrian economics model, and along with the Pope and Walensa, brought down the Evil Empire, temporarily ending the Cold War. Unfortunately, through the dumbing down of the masses, reckless Keynsian socialists now run the world, for which wealth will be redistributed until there is too much debt, too few producers, and too many moochers who can vote. This is pretty much were we are now. When those that rely on government for their sustenance find that inflation, caused by the easy money and ensuing currency wars, has left them starving with no means or experience on how to provide for themselves and their families, they will have nowhere to turn as the producers will have already hunkered down with their "Bibles and their Guns" into their well stocked, and defended, bunkers. Thatcher was right about socialism - eventually you do run out of other people's money.

Our collapse will happen when our dollars can no longer purchase petroleum with freshly printed dollars. We are not the producers of the world any more, just the bankers. When nobody wants what we 'produce', and we can't refuel our carriers or jets, anymore, those who actually produce something will ascend and dictate to us the terms of our decline and eventual surrender.

Chavez was a brutal murderous thug, just like Che, Lenin, Stalin, Hussein, and the like. The world is a much better place with him finally dead.
 
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DeletedUser

If you're paying half your income to taxes at 70k you need a better CPA because buddy, I've never seen it.

*goes back to doing his own income taxes*
Do you belive the only taxes you pay are income?
lol thats the least of it.
 

DeletedUser

Hardly, and I'll wager I know more about taxes than most people here. Did you want to discuss excise taxes? Sales taxes? Property taxes? Use taxes? Want me to keep going?
 

DeletedUser

I have not insulted you, I called you out and you don’t like it. As for your poor reading comprehension, you proved my point once again. I did not state any of those professions are generally 1099 employees, fire extinguisher class, cutting grass and roofing are. I owe somebody on this forum an apology, I was wrong it is fun winding people up.
.
.

Let me ask you is the tax on gas, phone, property, sales, not taxes?
Are fees paid to the government state, federal, or local not taxes?
The list goes on and on.
 

DeletedUser

A fee is a payment for a specific service requested. It's not mandatory unless the service is. A tax has no direct connection to the benefits received. Both may be revenue for a government, however many fees exist outside of government which appear to be government but are not. All taxes are government based.

E.g. A license is a fee. It is not a tax. You don't have to have a car, but if you choose to operate one then you must pay the fee.
 

DeletedUser

*bing* And there's the problem with arguing that the government prevents you from being successful in your small business. Indeed it is quite the opposite, as they provide many programs, grants, loans to assist small business owners, particularly first time business owners. That you opted not to take advantage of any of these programs puts you in a difficult position for debate, particularly when your primary argument is opposition to taxation and you don't even have the correct figures.,


Still, it makes for good reading, even for those of us with "poor reading comprehension." *chuckle*
,
These many programs, grants,loans to assist are an evil two headed sword. The goverment offers theses programs making the bank or lending body in a position to require them. Without them they would make their own decisions and guidlines. Most of these programs put the borrower in a position of failure. I watched many a young farmer get suck by this trap and I didnt become successful untill I found my out the system,

- - - Updated - - -

Very good point SLange. In the 80's, the dream was posed by the Reagan administration (a part of the Reaganomics philosophy) to borrow beyond your means... that doing so was good for the economy, etc. This, of course, was a lie and it caused Americans (and, subsequently, Europeans) to fall heavily into debt. This borrow & spend philosophy allowed people to live the dream, up until the economy could no longer support the fantasy. On an individual basis, and on a national level, borrowing and spending beyond one's means has a lot to do with what is presently plaguing U.S. and European economies.

Our present state of distress didn't happen overnight, it started 30 years ago.
.
.
.
I would say it started when the Federal Reserve System was started and if "Power is money, and Money is Power" The country was set on a road to distruction. We the poeple were no longer in charge of our destiny.

Yes, Reagan and Thatcher were in awe of each other and pushed the same theme, this is when Finance was deregulated starting the gamble mentality rot throughout the land. I watched the City boys throwing their champers and Ferraris about on our money, now they burn £50 notes in front of a homeless person. Ownership was pushed like never before, except ownership is a fantasy as it was based on massive debt and a lot of luck. Unless you are a Corporation richer than most countries now who get handed billion pound contracts by the corrupt Governments. The small firms get nothing, banks aren't interested in helping them out. The interesting development is the peer to peer lending which is taking off to bridge that gap. I think I'm in favour of it even though it isn't regulated, where individuals risk their own money to help out small business for a higher return than the rates given for saves due to the risks involved. I can't see a downside to that other than the risk factor.

- - - Updated - - -

Off topic I was very sad to see Hugo Chavez, democratically elected President of Venezuela died. He was a giant of a man who defied the might of the rich to keep the wealth of the oil in his country for the people. Much to the chagrain of the US who supported a coup (due to the country being 4th greatest exporter of Petroleum in the world) which lasted 24 hours before the people reinstated him. News coverage showed him in a different light but the real story was caught on camera.
.
,
Update
Do you belive the U.S. has ever or will ever have a shortage of natural resources? I think not. It was a way forced upon the
US citizen to help advance populations around the world grow economically creating more areas with need of goods, and inernational economic systems.

- - - Updated - - -

A fee is a payment for a specific service requested. It's not mandatory unless the service is. A tax has no direct connection to the benefits received. Both may be revenue for a government, however many fees exist outside of government which appear to be government but are not. All taxes are government based.

E.g. A license is a fee. It is not a tax. You don't have to have a car, but if you choose to operate one then you must pay the fee.
With this I agree.
So charge the fees and forget the taxes.
Charge the taxes then the manditory fees are defacto taxes.
 

DeletedUser

,
Update
Do you belive the U.S. has ever or will ever have a shortage of natural resources? I think not. It was a way forced upon the
US citizen to help advance populations around the world grow economically creating more areas with need of goods, and inernational economic systems.

- - - Updated - - -


You should look into how heavily the US relies on Middle Eastern oil for its resources, I think you would be surprised. Unfortunately the US has had the might to export death and debt to third world countries they do not improve their economy they just rape and pillage the land and the people. The UK assists. For the lives lost on 9/11 48,644 Afghan and 1,690,903 Iraqi's have paid the price and the countless coups instigated and supported by the US over the years. When G8 comes around and America leads the way in agreeing steps to end hunger forever then tell me your country promotes well-being in foreign lands. Lastly why does it need 68 military bases scattered about the world if all it is concerned with is promoting other countries economies?
 
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DeletedUser

Lastly why does it need 68 military bases scattered about the world if all it is concerned with is promoting other countries economies?
Didn't you know countries like Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Spain, the Netherlands, Singapore and the United Kingdom are poor, deprived states reliant upon U.S. welfare kindly distributed by the military?
 

DeletedUser

First the US has more oil reserves that are not tapped than would be needed for centuries.
Second a large precentage of what is tapped is not in production just held in reserve.
By going to third world and as you say rape and pillaging the land and people they are being forced to join the world econemy.
Then you say the UK assist well the US and UK and federal reserve are controlled by the same people.
I have never said US promotes well being of anyone not even the US citizen slaves.
The better question is why would we "promoting other countries economies? while stalling ours and controlling our population.
Dont look to the US citizen who are just as much a victum as everyone else,
Dont look to our greedy politions as they are just chess pices in the world game.
Look to the worlds powers behind the governments.
 

DeletedUser

Your first statement is a patent fallacy perpetuated by talking heads, not science. The majority of our energy reserves are in coal.

For those reserve that exist they are held in reserve because it is neither cheap nor easy to get to. You can't just stick a pipe in the ground for them.

The rest of this is tin-foil hat stuff. There's no arguing the point with you because you've got a confirmation bias.
 

DeletedUser

Didn't you know countries like Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Spain, the Netherlands, Singapore and the United Kingdom are poor, deprived states reliant upon U.S. welfare kindly distributed by the military?

Lol I know the UK had to rebuff a request from the US last year to use military bases in the UK to support build up of forces in the Gulf due to worries about Iran. They also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus and for permission to fly from British Territories in the Indian Ocean. We are so lucky to have them (sarcasm).
 
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DeletedUser3

First the US has more oil reserves that are not tapped than would be needed for centuries.
Apologies, but this is blatantly incorrect. It is more expensive to access those oil reserves than it is to sell. I.e., not profitable. Indeed, the Department of Interior, Bureau of Land Management, stated in a report, "there are no economically viable ways yet known to extract and process oil shale for commercial purposes, and Utah tar sands deposits are not at present a proven commercially-viable energy source." ~ http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-04-14/pdf/2011-9120.pdf

There's a general confusion on this issue, and unfortunately this confusion is intentionally created. There is "tight oil" and then there is "oil shale." Tight oil, which is often referred to as "shale oil," (and therein lies the confusion) is relatively easy to extract, and is thus an economically viable energy source, except for plays having very short life and attributed for just 20% of the oil obtained in our recent boom.

The great deposits reported (or should I say, hyped), that of reports exceeding 2 trillion barrels, are of oil shale, which is not easy to extract, not cost effective to extract, and the wells are short lived. As stated by the reputable geoscientist, David Hughes of the Post Carbon Institute, "<shale oil> wells decline rapidly within a few years. Those in the top five U.S. plays typically produced 80–95% less gas after three years," also stating, "That's the Achilles heel of shale gas. You need a lot of wells and environmental collateral damage and infrastructure to grow supply." This translates to approximately 5 years of life (not 40 years, as posed by Exxon) and with only a dismal 10% extraction (compared to conventional oil extraction, which runs over 90%), that 2 trillion turns into a hard-earned 200 billion barrels. ~ http://www.postcarbon.org/reports/DBD-report-FINAL.pdf

hughes_oil4.gif


And then there's the issue of an exponentially growing consumption, due to expansions on technology, production, commercial/residential expansion, and human population. It is estimated that world energy consumption will increase by 44% over the next 24 years. David Hughes states, "the cumulative amount of energy consumption required to sustain such an increase amounts to 71 percent of all the hydrocarbons consumed between 1850 and 2011—in just 24 years. This would get us to 10 times the average per capita energy consumption of 1850 and 70 times the total energy throughput."

1EnergyGrowth-e1336944714168-291x300.jpg

(image linked from Forbes)

Also, investing in oil shale drilling is economically dangerous because it is dependent upon high oil prices. Without high oil prices, there's no profit. In 1982 this very mistake was experienced, resulting in the loss of billions in corporate & government money (due to subsidies provided as a result of increasing oil prices) and over 24,000 jobs. When the price of oil dropped, the costs far exceeded the gains. ~ http://www.centerwest.org/publications/oilshale/3engineering/6blacksunday.php

The problem here is that oil prices are dictated largely by OPEC, which the U.S. and its industries have repeatedly treated as hostile, as adversaries, and for good reason. It is speculated the drop in oil prices back in May of 1982 was intentional, a calculated assault on U.S. shale drilling efforts. Because oil shale drilling is so expensive, the only way it can make a profit is if oil prices are high. An excess of investment into oil shale drilling could very well be undermined by OPEC dropping the price of their barrels, repeating what occurred back in 1982.

I close this argument with a warning from David Hughes, "The lack of abundant cheap energy, which allowed the rapid growth in supply of natural resources inputs and the exploitation of arable land and water over the past century, is likely to be a steep change unlike anything observed thus far in the evolution of industrial society."

By going to third world and as you say rape and pillaging the land and people they are being forced to join the world econemy.
It is well documented that chocolate producing corporations (in the U.S. and Europe) obtain their cocoa beans from cocoa plantations in west Africa, harvested through child slavery. ~ http://www.ilo.org/public//english//standards/ipec/themes/cocoa/download/2005_02_cl_cocoa.pdf

It is well documented that brand (and non-brand) name U.S. and European clothing companies obtain their products from sweat shops managed in India, Indonesia, Bangladesh, China, Thailand and other countries that do not place a high value on human rights and safe working environments. Indeed, it is figured that many of these overseas clothing producers employ children and utilize indentured servants (debt bondage) and convicts for cut rate profits. ~ (take your pick) -- https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/677/t/10607/shop/shop.jsp?storefront_KEY=749

It is well documented that American employers (mostly government contractors) hire illegal aliens to work for paltry wages under sub-optimal living conditions, for long hours in unsafe working conditions, so they can obtain greater profits. Indeed, Republican Presidents have repeatedly demonstrated their acquiescence to such practices whilst simultaneously railing against illegal immigration. In 1999, under President Bill Clinton, the US government collected $3.69 million in fines from 890 companies for employing undocumented workers. Contrast that to, George W. Bush, whose administration in 2004 levied NO fines for U.S. companies employing undocumented workers. ~ http://usliberals.about.com/od/immigration/a/IllegalImmi_2.htm

Are you really going to argue we're forcing them to join the world economy? Are you really going to try and give consumerism an altruistic spin? Are you really going to push that corporate wigs care more for people and the world economy than they do for their own individual short-term profits? I'm sorry but didn't you just argue, in the quote below, a tinfoil conspiracy? I'm confused...

Then you say the UK assist well the US and UK and federal reserve are controlled by the same people.
Please provide evidence to support your assertion here, otherwise it's just another tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.

The better question is why would we "promoting other countries economies? while stalling ours and controlling our population.
You posed a catch question. Promoting other countries' economies does not stall ours. In fact, helping other countries economies helps our economy. This is a global economy we live in now. A lot has changed in 100 years, we're no longer isolated. Almost everything we do is globally impacting or influenced. Helping other nations has a positive impact on the global economy, which has a positive impact on the U.S. and other countries that do business with the U.S.

Dont look to the US citizen who are just as much a victum as everyone else,
Umm, U.S. citizens are not victims. We live in a prosperous republic, we elect our representatives, we vote on issues. U.S. citizens are empowered, but many of us decide to sit on our butts and not participate (over 40% of the eligible voters did not vote in the 2012 election). We ignore the atrocities committed on our behalf and consume without consideration for how our products are obtained.

Being apathetic does not make someone a victim.

Look to the worlds powers behind the governments.
And those "world powers" are?
 

DeletedUser

You are right I dont have figures and charts just know what I have seen and has happened.
Oil, Shale oil, coal, ng, shale gas,ultra deep sands, untapped sands on the east west coast, not to mention new technolagies making previously explored and unexplored plays now possible; there are allways new reserves and more effecient extraction in the works. Not to mention wind, solor, and other technologies that could be aggressivaly tapped, When we have the will we exploit the resource.
No I do not belive the US,
.
I never said forcing reagons and peoples to join the world economies is alturtistic or good, just forced.
.
"Are you really going to push that corporate wigs care more for people and the world economy than they do for their own individual short-term profits?"
Well actually thought I was making exact opposit asserstion. I think ever expanding push for those profits reguradless of who or what government has to be manipulated for their cause is their cause.
And dont ask me who they are.
.
Do you belive the president be he either party ansers to no one?
Who is they.
,
"This is a global economy we live in now. A lot has changed in 100 years, we're no longer isolated""
Appears to me they are getting their way.
.
You are right being apathetic does not meake someone a victom, it does allow them to be victomized.
Witch also is my point. A seemingly happy person dosnt rock the boat and mabey he is responsible for the boat witch abuses him and the world in his name.
 

DeletedUser3

You are right I dont have figures and charts just know what I have seen and has happened.
Oil, Shale oil, coal, ng, shale gas,ultra deep sands, untapped sands on the east west coast, not to mention new technolagies making previously explored and unexplored plays now possible; there are allways new reserves and more effecient extraction in the works. Not to mention wind, solor, and other technologies that could be aggressivaly tapped, When we have the will we exploit the resource.
So your belief is that Man will find a way... is that about right?

I suppose if that's your argument, I want to point out that the petroleum industry has been throwing false stories out there for decades, purchasing new energy technologies and burying the patents, lobbying and bribing their way to ensure their industry remains unfettered and allowed to drill where-ever they want whilst our economy teeters on the brink. Did you know the three main petroleum producers are also the highest profit gainers (Fortune 500 report) for the past three years? They have been charging exorbitant prices, not because of expenses, but because they need to keep their investors happy, and what better way than showing 200% profits every year.

This is not a nature-oriented process. We're fighting a profit oriented industry that could care less for survival of the species. Their goal is dominance of the industries. Man cannot find its way when chored with these sorts of challenges. No, we're in these dire straits precisely because Man has been prevented from finding a way.

I never said forcing reagons and peoples to join the world economies is alturtistic or good, just forced.
Exploiting the populations of another country does not bring that country, nor its population, to join the world economies... you have quite the odd perspective on things, I must say. Populations that are exploited, are exploited. It is a mirthless notion to think that children enslaved, beaten, and killed to provide for our chocolate bars somehow benefit their countries and provide greater economic prosperity for their respective societies.

I must say, that's a disturbing disconnect there jbtcajun.

Well actually thought I was making exact opposit asserstion. I think ever expanding push for those profits reguradless of who or what government has to be manipulated for their cause is their cause.
And dont ask me who they are.
Why not? You're the one that brought it up. If you claim something, the least you could do is back it up with facts.

You are right being apathetic does not meake someone a victom, it does allow them to be victomized.
No, that is not the case. An apathetic person can be no more or less victimized than anyone else.

Witch also is my point. A seemingly happy person dosnt rock the boat and mabey he is responsible for the boat witch abuses him and the world in his name.
Interesting metaphor, except it doesn't quite work as a metaphor. What were you trying to say here?
 

DeletedUser

Lol
This is the end.
You never seem to catch the drift of anything I say always vewing it from some strange distorted position.
Demanding proof quoted from some expert athority instead of opening your mind and seeing what is.
Example youre take above Man will find a way.
Isnt that what man has been doing forever. The discussion here is will the way man find result in the end of America the very point of this thead.
You're argument even asserts that there is some THEY out there pulling the strings of the world and its population as is mine.
Will this string pulling weaken and hasten the end of US? I think so.
With that I am in agreement with the original post the US is not and will not be a shadow if its self.
All the quotes were my agreement with that thought through what was quoited.
Then you go on to futher my thoughts still not getting the point that They do not care about who or how people are exploited what They want is the oppertunity to exploit in these new areas for their good not caring of anything else especially the population.
Again leading to the distruction of the US.
So you and I must call it quit and let this theread continue.
We will never see things from the same slant and thats good to.
 
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